#015 - Gunnar Garfors - Traveling To Every Country Twice

Gunnar Garfors, a world-renowned traveler and author, takes us on a remarkable journey. He shares his perspectives on the transformative power of travel, challenging societal norms, and the importance of connecting with local cultures. Gunnar's unique experiences, including his daring escape from guides in North Korea and his quest to visit every country twice, offer a fresh outlook on embracing curiosity and fostering personal growth through exploration.

Timestamps:
00:38 Being an Exchange Student
04:35 The Influence of Travel Stories
07:28 Becoming a Storyteller and Traveler
11:25 The Importance of Authentic Experiences
15:41 The Impact of Social Media on Travel
26:25 Observation vs. Participation in Travel
31:15 Addressing Safety Concerns While Traveling
33:16 Running Through Pyongyang: A Solo Adventure in North Korea
40:55 Chasing Travel Goals: From Five Continents in One Day to 22 US States in 24 Hours
45:55 Balancing Travel and Relationships: The Sacrifices and Rewards
51:00 The Power of Goals: Finding Direction and Motivation in Life
57:16 Traveling for Humility: Embracing Different Cultures and Perspectives

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Transcript

Gunnar Garfors, a world-renowned traveler and author, takes us on a remarkable journey. He shares insightful perspectives on the transformative power of travel, challenging societal norms, and the importance of connecting with local cultures. Gunnar's unique experiences, including his daring escape from guides in North Korea and his quest to visit every country twice, offer a fresh outlook on embracing curiosity and fostering personal growth through exploration. 

Tim (00:05.006)

Gunner, welcome to the Outworker.

Gunnar G. (00:07.458)

Thank you very much, Tim. It's a pleasure being on your show.

Tim (00:12.462)

What was your experience like being an exchange student at East Central High School in St. Leon, Indiana?

Gunnar G. (00:20.322)

that's a long time ago and I was back in 1992, I believe. That was really eye -opening. I mean, it was my first time properly outside my own country, except for maybe Sweden and the UK and a couple of other places. And, you know, being an exchange student, you're sort of thrown into a different culture. With host parents, you have...

host brothers and sisters and all the rest of it, you're meeting a totally new culture, a totally new mindset and a different time zone and away from your friends and your family. So I really appreciate that. I was really homesick in the beginning actually. And...

Luckily that sort of passed and it just realizing that I was in a different country, even though it's still part of the Western world, the US and Norway, it was really eye opening and it made me realize that, okay, so people do things differently in other countries.

was really valuable to be able to realize that and to also sort of be able to look at yourself as a Norwegian from sort of the outside, meeting people who never even heard about Norway, some people never even heard about Europe and getting that perspective was it was really good. I would definitely recommend for any student

to do at least one year or at least half a year abroad in a different culture than their own.

Tim (02:00.174)

You say in your book that you found yourself in the U S what do you think it is specifically that you found?

Gunnar G. (02:08.002)

No, I think it has to do with realizing that there are different cultures. It was also the first time I was not at home, not with my parents. So sort of outside this protective bubble, if you like, where everything is like it's always been. Of course, being 17 years at a time, I mean, I didn't have to make a living or anything even in Norway. I didn't have to do that in the US either. But still, I was then separated, if you like.

from my family and the safety of the little village I grew up in in Norway. And you know I think it's sort of being, and I mean this was totally voluntary on my behalf, but it's sort of being kicked out from the safety of your home, sort of maybe like a duckling is you know sort of kicked out from and forced into learning how to swim and eventually how to...

how to fly. So I don't know, also meeting, you know, knowing nobody, you had to make friends, you know, from scratch, you met so many people, and also the cultural aspects, that was, it was really good for me. And I think that's something that's, again, every child or every student should actually do, not necessarily abroad, but at least being thrown into a different environment.

society or culture even within their own country.

Tim (03:41.55)

Yeah, I'm a big believer that an environment change, especially the more drastic, the environment change it allows for you to almost reinvent yourself or find a new part of your identity. And I definitely have had experiences like that with traveling and studying abroad as well in college. So when you were a young kid, your dad was working as a doctor on a cruise ship and he would record stories on a

cassette tapes and send them back to you in Norway. And I know that those tapes made a massive impression on you for wanting to do your own traveling when you got older. But how did this also impact you from the standpoint of seeing how important it is for you to record and document your own traveling and not just experience it for yourself.

Gunnar G. (04:38.338)

No, it's a good question and I really appreciate it. I mean, I was only three and four years at the time and I only had one brother. Now I have three brothers and three sisters here in Norway. But it still made a huge impact, you know, just hearing the familiar sound of the voice of my dad telling all these stories from...

Pacific Ocean on both sides both in the US and Asia. So I just you know every time we every day we ran down my brother and we ran down to the mailbox a hundred meters from our home just to see if there was another envelope with with a cassette inside and it was typically once every two or three weeks and then we ran back home to the kitchen and put the cassette into the player and press play and my imagination went wild.

My dad's a really good, or he used to be, he passed away last year, but he used to be a really good storyteller. And of course with the cassette tape, no photos, no nothing, he meticulously explained what he was doing, whether it was in the Forbidden City in Baijang, it was on the rice fields in the Philippines. It was seeing riding police officers in Canada. It was about kids doing, you know,

doing skateboarding in the US, something we'd never seen in Norway. He really went all in and explained every detail. This sort of triggered curiosity, but it also triggered a lot of photographs or paintings or whatever, images if you like, in my mind. And I...

I appreciated that and I realized that this was a really good way of telling stories from different cultures. This was a way before a low -cost airlines, I mean most people couldn't afford to fly or at least not much. So this was pictures or snippets or stories from a totally different part of the world, totally different cultures.

Gunnar G. (06:46.85)

I suppose that inspired me, even though I was very young, inspired me to do similar things in different outputs, variants, you know, in books. Now I primarily do books and podcasts and such, but it really inspired me to, you know, tell my own stories.

Tim (07:10.958)

Yeah, going deeper into that. Do you see yourself more so as a storyteller than more so as just a traveler? Because I know when you talk about traveling your anti guidebook and I love that because people need to explore for themselves and be creative and not just necessarily have a fully drawn out agenda. Is the motivation for you? Do you see yourself as a storyteller?

Gunnar G. (07:37.25)

Well, now these days I travel, I mean, I love to travel just to travel, but quite often these days I travel to research books. So in that case, in those cases, I sort of have to look for stories. I have to look for people to interview, whether I find them randomly or whether I've organized it in advance. It's about trying to dig into various cultures. It's about finding interesting stories. It's about observing.

And I mean, it's more important to tell the stories that I, or to tell what I experienced and to necessarily find the most exciting stories or, you know, to exaggerate or whatever. I'm not sure. I'm doing this primarily for my own...

let's say benefit, I really appreciate traveling. It's taught me so much. And I'd say, you know, I like to typically say it would be an insult for me not to travel. It would be an insult to my curiosity. It would be an insult to my intellect. It would be an insult to my creativity. So, you know, in that sense, it's quite an egoistic way of doing this. At the same time, I realized that I do experience a lot of things.

that I hope can help inspire other people to also travel and to get out of their, let's say, comfort zones or whatever at home and learn a lot about the world, about different cultures, about religions, and essentially also about themselves. So yes, I suppose I'm a storyteller.

as much as I'm a traveller. I think I'm both. I'm not going to say one is more important than the other, but I do appreciate it. I really do appreciate it when I get...

Gunnar G. (09:37.25)

feedback from readers. Sometimes they're correcting me saying, yeah, thank you for the story or whatever, but I think you missed out something, which I really do appreciate. Other people are thanking me for inspiring them to maybe going on the first trip, maybe outside Norway or outside a different country, or maybe just helping them.

kick their butts and get them out from their armchair and actually do explore. So whether I receive criticism or I receive praise, I really do appreciate getting that feedback. And that's probably one of the main reasons why I do continue writing books. And it's also...

I don't know, it helps inspire me as well to do more travelling and to do more book writing and more storytelling, whether it's on podcasts or in books or on small videos on social media.

Tim (10:45.55)

Yeah, I think that's how the most authentic work and writing gets created is it almost feels like a form of self -expression and doing it for yourself. And then you're just sharing that experience and that process for others that might benefit from it as well. One of my favorite quotes from the start of your book is the mindset that your mom instilled in you regarding traveling and regarding memories.

You say she didn't teach us to take the easy way out, the safe choice, the solutions that never developed into memories. Mom, we don't want to stay in a tent. It's wet and cold. We might complain. Then you will remember this. It will be a memory for life. Just imagine how boring it would be if everything was normal all the time. How do you think this mindset has allowed you to expand your limits for traveling when others might be turned off?

or more averse to explore new things.

Gunnar G. (11:46.466)

Well, my mom is still the same way, you know, to this day. And I really appreciate that. You know, back then it was sort of, yeah, but the neighbouring kid, you know, he doesn't have to do this, you know, or, you know, they have a caravan or they stay in hotels or whatever. But, you know, she really taught me how to do something different, you know, to pursue adventures or to pursue challenges and to do stuff that other people weren't necessarily doing. I think we

we all as kids have been complaining about, yeah, but the other kid, you know, that they get to do something nicer or they go on a much nicer holiday than we do, or they go to Disney World and we're going on tenting and whatnot. But at the end of the day, it's sort of, let's say, it's sort of doing real activities. I don't know, whether it's Disney World or any theme park or whatever, it's sort of manufactured fun, you know.

you have to pay for it. Somebody has been sitting down, they've been building something and they're leading you through this predetermined story and predetermined adventure that be going on. So it's also a copycat holiday if you like, you're just doing the same thing as everybody else. Whereas if you go...

I don't know, hiking or tenting or fishing or exploring one way or another, then it's your holiday. It's your story. It's your experience.

And yes, of course, it might not be as comfortable. You might burn your sausages on the campfire and you might get wet in the tent and you might get blisters from all the hiking and whatnot. But, you know, at least you have your own stories. You meet other people that are also having their own stories as opposed to, you know, standing in a queue in a line to take a ride that will take, you know, you might stand in a queue for an hour or two hours and the ride will take a minute.

Gunnar G. (13:47.156)

and 10 seconds. And I don't know, I really appreciate this from my mom. It was the same thing with clothing. And, you know, classmates of mine, they got the last really expensive Levi's jeans. Whereas we purchased jeans in the used shop. Or we got jeans from my older cousins or whatever. So, I mean, having seven children, you know.

Obviously my parents couldn't afford to buy Levi's jeans to all of us, but that sort of forced them into thinking differently and putting a value on experiences as opposed to either manufactured fun or big brand clothing or cars or whatever else we're talking about.

Tim (14:37.454)

going deeper into that manufactured sense of traveling and manufactured experiences, how do you think that social media has impacted traveling, but also people creating travel content?

Gunnar G. (14:55.138)

Well, it certainly has impacted it in a lot of ways. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of it has now turned into a chase of status. And what we do on social media, a lot of us, it's about showing off, essentially. And, you know, I'm going to a nicer hotel than you, or I'm going on a longer or more difficult hike than...

then you are eating in a better restaurant or it's got more Michelin stars than you are and so on and so forth. And I, well, you know, of course it's always nice to be bragging or a lot of us seem to think so. But then it's more about...

It's more about the reaction from others than actually enjoying what you're doing yourself. And I mean, there's nothing wrong about staying in nice hotels or going to fancy Michelin star restaurants or going on the most famous hikes or whatever. It just seems that the...

The reason for doing so is about enhancing your own status or making yourself look better than everybody else. And I'm not saying this applies to everybody, obviously. Hopefully most people do it to share genuine stories with their friends and family.

But I feel that in too many cases, social media has helped us turn our, let's say travel stories or whatever we do really into race for being the best or the most interesting and so on and so forth. It seems to be more about bragging rights than about actually enjoying yourself. And I think that's a bit sad. At the same time, it's also about storytelling here, as I was talking about before.

Gunnar G. (16:48.828)

and social media used in good ways can certainly inspire people. It can get people...

can give people new ideas and trigger their creativity and so on. Social media is good in many, many ways and it's bad in probably equally many ways. As with anything, you should use it and there are benefits, but maybe not overuse it and only follow advice from so -called influencers or whatever. But be critical to the usage of it.

and limit it a tiny bit more than many of us tend to do. Sitting watching videos on social media for hours and hours a day, instead of actually going on trips yourself, that's quite stupid really. Then you're wasting, I would say you're wasting your life. Watching a small screen instead of going out into nature, into the city or whatever you're into.

and actually doing it yourself.

Tim (18:02.958)

So you had visited 85 countries before you committed to the mission of visiting all 198 countries. How did you make sure that you stayed in a traveler exploration mindset rather than simply having a goal oriented mindset of, hey, I'm here to check the box with new each country that you visited.

Gunnar G. (18:31.298)

Well, that would have been the easiest way just to tick off various countries. But then, well, I mean, what's the point? And I mean, I haven't been ever particularly wealthy either. So, you know, I had to save up money. I mean, I had a normal job and I set aside money from that. And then I traveled when I could or when I found a cheap ticket or whatever. And just to tick off something and just say, well, I've been there. I was there for two hours or one day or whatever.

or I was even only in the airport, then I mean, what is the purpose? I mean, okay, I can tick a box and say I've technically been there. But if you say that, okay, this was a really big goal of mine.

It ended up, as you say, after visiting 85 countries. It started before that to visit all the Ston countries and then I ran out of Ston countries. That's when I hit 85 and decided to go after all of them. So this was a really big goal for me. And traveling to the first 85, it was all about exploring and seeing these countries, trying the foods, meeting people, trying to learn something from their cultures and so on. And I wasn't going to sacrifice

continuing doing that for tick box traveling as I tend to call it. And we see a lot of that lately. So many people they want to visit every country in the world. Unfortunately, a fair amount of them are happy ticking off a box. And they don't mind if their proof is a photo from an airport, even inside the airport. Some people even count airport stops without even

leaving without even leaving the aircraft. Maybe they're just refueling or they're not allowed to leave the aircraft. They say well I've been to this country, I've been to Cotorial Guinea or I've been to Tuvalu or wherever. And then I ask but what is the point? Because let's say the point is you have a goal, you're doing it for bragging rights or you have a bucket list or whatever.

Gunnar G. (20:38.818)

But when you then tell your friends about having visited all the countries or having visited hundreds of the top stadiums or whatever your goal is, and then your friends ask about, yeah, so how was Equatorial Guinea or how was Tuvalu and how was the food? And there's a next question, please. Because you have absolutely nothing to tell from it. And it's all a ticking a box. And you spend loads of money to stay in an aircraft or stay on the airfield.

in the country and I really do not understand the point of it because you have nothing to tell you've seen virtually nothing unless you're happy to have a window seat and you could see something from the air but you haven't felt anything haven't spoken to anybody you might have met somebody on the plane that's from the place but I mean you can even find someone online and you know

and do a Skype call with them, if that's your idea of being in a place. So I think unless you've actually been on the ground, you have eaten there, you've talked to people, you have spoken to the real experts who always are the locals. Regardless of where you go, the true experts are the locals. And that's also one of the reasons, as you mentioned earlier, I don't like guidebooks very much because they are

almost 100 % of the time written by foreigners, not from the country that they are writing about. And they are in the country or in the town or village or region or city for maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe a few weeks.

And this might have been last year, it might have been five years ago. So it's outdated. And then you're also seeing everything through the lens of this particular person. He or she might have interests that are totally different to your interests. Might be of a different age than you, have a different background and all these things. Whereas if you actually visit a country properly and you talk to the people living there, then that's when you will get updated info.

Gunnar G. (22:47.106)

You will learn about what's hot, what's not, what you should do, where you should eat. You learn about traditions and customs and so on and so forth. And you'll be given a totally different experience. Unfortunately, a lot of us, when we travel, we don't travel alone. We travel with other people. Typically, it can be a partner, it can be a friend, it can be a group of friends. And quite often they're all from the same country or it's even the same village or town.

as yourself, or at least they are from the same region, they're all westerners, in the case of you and me. Or they're all easterners, they're all from Asia or from Africa, wherever. But when we travel as a group, it's much harder to actually get in touch with local people, because you're kind of exclusive being a group.

So you might end up traveling the world, traveling to every country and you go out and you eat and you explore, but you might not really talk to anybody because what you're doing is you're observing and you're taking photos and you're putting out on social media, you're making videos and all the rest of it. But it's sort of as an observer because quite often you never engage, you never participate because you either you are too shy and you're traveling on your own.

or more usual, which is more usual, you are then travelling with someone else from your own culture or a similar culture and you never really engage with the locals. And of course, I understand that people travel with friends and all the rest of it. I mean, I do as well quite often. But then it's sort of, it's all about then challenging yourself or your friend or each other to actually approach

people that live there and try to engage with them and do something. Participate in whatever activity or whatever opportunity is there. It can be eating a meal together, it can be going on walks or hikes, it can be playing volleyball or whatever. They're sort of throwing yourself out there and being a bit, being extrovert and not all of us are.

Gunnar G. (25:06.196)

extroverts so then maybe you have to devise some I don't know some question or whatever you can just ask you know ask somebody what time it is you know simple as that maybe hide your watch if you have one but just to get in touch with someone if you are a bit introvert ask about the time or you know where is the railway station or do you know about a restaurant or whatever.

Unfortunately, we've seen the last few years, there are some inventions that have further limited our ability to get in touch with local people. Let's see, for instance, the selfie stick.

Before, at least, when we wanted a photo of ourselves, we had to ask somebody, excuse me, could you take a photo of me? Now we don't have to do that anymore. That's a wasted opportunity to actually get in touch with somebody. Start talking, and the moment you start talking, suddenly you are much closer to getting a friend, to having a conversation. Also, we have...

We have the TripAdvisor, we have the internet with TripAdvisor, with Google Maps. Instead of asking someone, again someone local, where should I go to eat? Do you have a recommendation for a restaurant?

or a bar or whatever, then we look it up on Google Maps for TripAdvisor and we say, okay, that looks like a nice bar, we're gonna go there. Again, wasting the opportunity to get in touch with people. And what seems to be the case quite a lot of times is that all the reviews on these platforms online are written by Westerners.

Gunnar G. (26:40.29)

So not only are you wasting this opportunity to get in touch with people, but you're also getting advice from other travellers. And I'm not saying the internet is a bad thing, not at all. And I mean, of course we should use these platforms to a certain degree, but maybe we shouldn't all forget about asking local people for advice.

Tim (27:09.87)

Yeah, I love how you break that down between observation and participation because definitely just from my experience, but I feel like from a lot of people's experience, they definitely tend to be on the side of just observation, especially when they're traveling with other people. And I'm not going to ask you what your favorite country is because that's probably an impossible question to answer, but is there a certain nationality of people that you've interacted with that?

have left an impact to you on a certain way more than others.

Gunnar G. (27:44.066)

A lot, but I can take, and I do appreciate you not asking about my favorite country. I probably get this question five or ten times a week and it's almost impossible to answer. I mean, I don't have a favorite country and it's really unfair to make a list of favorite countries, especially if you haven't spent equal amounts of time in all of them, which we tend not to. There are lots of countries...

say every country has made an impression in or a positive impression in one way or another. And what maybe is a bit surprising is that the hospitality, I mean you receive hospitality all over the world, but most surprisingly maybe is that maybe the warmest people and the most hospitable people out there are typically in the Middle East.

Saudi Arabia for instance, Iran, Sudan, where now there is a war going on there. Typically for these countries is that we have sort of a division between the leadership, the government of the country, and let's say normal people. And I'm talking about normal people now.

tend to end up meeting anyway. It's quite rare we end up talking to government officials unless we're in trouble with police maybe. But let's say, so normal people in the Middle East, it is amazing and especially based on what we know or what we think we know or what we hear in the media.

The Middle East does not necessarily have a really positive vibe to it or a positive reputation. But when you travel there, and I don't know, so many times I've been overwhelmed by the hospitality that I receive there. People, you know, out of the blue, invite me for dinners, the odd wedding you're even invited to, they invite you to your home, they, you know.

Gunnar G. (29:50.306)

make meals or they show you town or they really don't know what good they can do to you because they're so proud that you're visiting their village or their town. So it seems to be embedded in their cultures that, you know, a stranger is not really a stranger. It's a potential friend. And they're doing their best to, you know, to welcome you to their culture and to their homes.

Tim (30:21.582)

haven't had any dangerous interaction throughout all of your traveling, but were there any countries that maybe you had a little fear of going to or maybe didn't want to go to but obviously knew you had to to achieve your goal of going to every single country?

Gunnar G. (30:40.098)

Well, in the beginning, you know, when I started traveling, some of the countries you'd heard negative things on in the media or in the news felt a bit iffy, let's say. My first trip to Afghanistan, for instance, I was a bit...

I was traveling with two friends, but the moment we crossed the border and it was, you know, I mean hospitality in Afghanistan is also really, really welcoming. And I forgot about it almost immediately. So it was the first, or maybe the two first countries which I've heard, let's say negative things, or they were at war.

where there were conflict levels, high conflict levels in. But the moment I actually stepped inside the country and realized that people are people and people are typically friendly and they want you well, very few people actually want to hurt you. And you can be unlucky, but you can be unlucky in Oslo or in Los Angeles or Paris or London as well, as cities or towns and countries we deem as dangerous. And typically they're

they're not. Then again, I mean, I've never been one of those to travel to the front line, you know, travel to war zones and stuff like that. I really think people should refrain from doing that. But as long as you stay out of obvious danger sounds, you are very unlikely to get in trouble.

Tim (32:22.542)

going deeper into that and in other countries that I'd be interested in hearing your experience in. And it's probably a country that I think I won't make any assumptions, but I would bet that I'll never be there in my entire life. Talk to me about your trip to North Korea and running through Pyongyang alone.

Gunnar G. (32:44.226)

Yeah, well as an American, I suppose you're banned from going there, unfortunately. Let's hope that changes. Currently North Korea is actually, it's the only country that's blocked from foreigners, except Russians. They have been allowed in the last couple of months. So after the pandemic, it's still closed down, which means it's the least visited country in the world currently, or it was last year at least. Going to North Korea, the first time I flew in and I

I flew out the second time. I travelled by train from China and flew out. Travelling by train was very, very interesting. That's sort of a loophole because you will then not need a guide with you. So on the train, you're by yourself. You can freely walk around the train. You can walk...

outside the train when it stops in various stations and you get to see whatever is on the outside. So that was quite a refreshing trip. This was my second time as opposed to the first time when I had guides with me all the time. With the exception that you're referring to I suppose when...

Because in North Korea, you need to have two guides with you at any given time. And it is, of course, to show you what you're supposed to see, and it's also to make sure you don't see what you're not supposed to see. And the reason I have two guides at any given time is that after, let's say, a week in North Korea, you're going to get friendly with your guide and vice versa, most likely. And the government do not want the guides to then start asking what's really happening outside North Korea.

because all media in the country is government run, there's a lot of propaganda and all the rest of it. So the guides are also looking after each other, strangely enough. Of course also in North Korea, people, including guides, need to go to the bathroom occasionally. So after two or three days, then they start asking, when you get friendly, they start asking. When one of them is in the bathroom, they start asking, what's it really like outside?

Gunnar G. (34:58.308)

which is quite interesting. So I'm not a big fan of guides, let's say. So when I traveled in the first time, I was thinking, how can I get away from my guide? And we had a guy who was in the 60s, and I told him, when I travel, I like to go running.

and when can I go running because we had quite a strict schedule. And he said, well, you can go running in the morning at seven o 'clock. Then we have an hour and a half before our schedule starts.

And I said, brilliant. Okay, let's go running tomorrow. So, so who's going to come with me? I will, I will go with you. He said, you know, 60 or even 65 years old, you know, as a chain smoker. And I said, let's see about that. And then we started getting him drunk in the bar and hotel bar. We had brought Acquavit, which we called Norwegian whiskey. And it's, it's quite famous in Denmark, in Norway. It's, it's, it's,

Let's say it's a mixture between, it's not a mixture, but it's something similar to maybe whiskey or tequila or something in between. And you will get quite drunk on it. And we managed to get him so drunk the night before, seven o 'clock on wearing shorts and running shoes down the reception. Of course he doesn't show up. And I talked to the receptionist who goes to get him. And he comes downstairs, he's still in the same clothes, wearing his

suit.

Gunnar G. (36:33.154)

full suit with a tie and everything. Everything is creased, it looks really bad and he's smoking when he's walking down the stairs. And I said, Mr. Shears, how are you? Are you ready for running? And of course he was not ready for running. And then he sent the driver instead. But the driver, he was a guy in his 40s, he probably hadn't been running since he was in high school. So he lasted maybe two kilometres as we did the circle and go back to the hotel.

and outside the hotel, the guide, he was still standing there smoking and you could see he was so hungover. Poor lad.

And we're there after 2k and he's, okay, are you happy now? And I said, Hey, Mr. Sher, come on, that's only two kilometers. You know, I need to do a proper run here. And he looks at the driver and the driver, he's dying, you know, his heart is blasting. And he said, I'm not running anymore. And then he's, it's fine. You just go running on your own. So that was a way to get away from the guide. And, you know, so it was, so me and one of my friends who was on the trip, we then ran for, I don't know,

40 minutes, 45 minutes and we ran around Pyongyang where we wanted to. So that was a loophole which I also tried on the second time around. But this time the guy, a different guide, he didn't really want to drink so we didn't manage to get him drunk and he was happy to go running anyway. So I had to run with a guide the second time, a much younger guide back then. So it worked once.

Tim (38:10.03)

I know you spoke about it a little bit earlier, but you prefer to travel alone more so than traveling with others.

Gunnar G. (38:17.922)

I like both. I mean, when you travel alone, you can do whatever you want. You can be totally selfish and do exactly what you want. At the same time, you don't have anyone to share your experiences with. And, you know, in the evening and over lunch, you know, there's no one to eat with. Of course, unless you meet locals. So that's what I try to do. So I do have people to talk to and people to share experiences with.

I do like both. I do like traveling with...

you know, my friends or, you know, my wife or my brothers or whoever, to do something together and do something with people you love. I also like, and especially when I'm researching books, then I do prefer to travel alone because it's much easier than as I talked about earlier, you're not a group, so it's easier to get in touch with people alone. And when you're researching a book in particular, it's quite important to be able to get in touch with people, both for, you know, interviews.

for getting information and so on and so forth. So I don't know, I do like both ways of traveling.

Tim (39:34.702)

As much as traveling is about exploring and connecting with people like you've talked about, I know there's also a challenge aspect behind it or trying to strive to achieve new things. And you've accomplished some pretty incredible traveling goals. And I know you've spoken about how you really don't see it as much as traveling goals, but it's more so logistical work.

and having a logistically sound plan. I mean, you've done incredible stuff like just to name a few, you've visited five continents in one calendar day, 19 countries in 24 hours and 22 US States in 24 hours. Which of those was the hardest to accomplish?

Gunnar G. (40:23.35)

As you say, those...

tend not to call them travel records because this really has very little to do with traveling. We're talking tick box traveling at most, but I think in love and war and world record attempts, everything is allowed. Of course, if you're going to visit as many countries or states as possible in 24 hours, then obviously you have to rush it. It's trying to set the world record in marathon or in 10 ,000 meters. You're not there to enjoy the view, you're there to try to

to be to record. So no, I really don't think those records have anything or at least very, very little to do with travel. The most challenging of those, I don't know, that's a good question. I don't know, the first one was in 2012 with a friend from the UK, Adrian Butterworth, and when we visited five continents in one calendar day. That took quite a lot of planning and he was, he,

He was filming it, so he's making a documentary about it. So we didn't have much time in each country or on each continent, obviously. But we had to do interviews everywhere. So that added additional time pressure on us, which made the world record attempt even more stressful.

Also in the States, when we did 22 states in 24 hours, we had to drive. We had various rental cars that we had sort of placed around and we took some airplanes as well, scheduled aircraft. Unfortunately, one of them or two of them ran a bit late. So we're hoping to manage 23 or even 24 states, but we didn't in the end, partly because we were stopped by police for speeding for

Gunnar G. (42:21.668)

times. So that almost sort of screwed up our entire world record attempt.

overall but they let us go in all cases. It turned out that the reason they let us go was it would be so much paperwork with foreign driving licenses to sort of ticket us and they couldn't just ticket us they would have to take us to court and everything so that was it was too much hassle. So we got away with four police warnings on that record attempt trip so which again added to the stress levels and slowed us down a tiny bit.

Heheh

Tim (43:00.942)

For somebody who's always on the go, who's doing so much traveling, how do you think your relationships with family, friends, close ones have evolved over the years?

Gunnar G. (43:13.986)

Well, first of all, I live in Oslo and none of my siblings or parents live in Oslo. They all live on the West Coast. So it's already there. I've sort of been away for a lot of the time. And that is said, even when I traveled the most intensively, I...

I made sure I was always at home in Neustadt, my village on the West Coast, at least three times every year. Typically for Christmas, or every year for Christmas actually, except for the one time I was in the States as an exchange student. That's the only time I hadn't been home for Christmas. But on that, I've always been home for that holiday, and at least two others. And the last few years, I'm home more than that, probably four, five, even six or seven times a year.

But yeah, when you travel a lot, or a hell of a lot even, you have to make some sacrifices. And one of those for me, or maybe the biggest one, has been seeing my family less than I would have wanted to. So I suppose that's a drawback. If you set yourself a goal, that's very time consuming, a goal that you can't really do together with your family.

That's certainly, so you know, I have some, what should I say, some negative thoughts about that.

some regrets in that respect. So let's say I try, I compensate now at least as much as I can and we're quite good and you know they come visit me in Oslo, we travel together, have a cabin up north in Northern Norway where we meet some of us quite often or every year I should say. So we're relatively good to keep in touch still.

Tim (45:03.982)

So in 2013, you complete going to all 198 countries, Cape Verde was the last one. And there's an interesting section in your book. You say the instant the plane touchdown, I felt goosebumps all over my body. I was about to finish my project, the insanity of every country that had been my life's work. I felt empty. What now? I felt despair.

Would I ever have another new country to visit? Would I never again experience that peculiar sensation of venturing into unknown territory? No more thought about travels, impossible visas or erratic route combinations. But I was happy more than anything. And I think that's really interesting because I had a guest on a few weeks back, his name's John Beatty, who had climbed all seven summits and that's the highest peak on all seven continents. And he...

pretty much devoted his life to this goal. I mean, the amount of work, the energy, the headspace that went into this goal took up his entire life. And then once he accomplished that goal, it was like, well, now what?

Gunnar G. (46:14.466)

Yeah.

Tim (46:15.982)

Do you think part of the reason and you're a person who hasn't just been to all countries, but you've been to all countries twice? Do you think there's part of the reason why you've been to all countries twice either consciously or maybe subconsciously is needing that target or that goal to chase because I'm a believer that

Having some type of quantifiable goal, it feels good. Having something where you're striving towards can really help in life. Do you think that was a part of the reason why you wanted to go to all countries twice?

Gunnar G. (46:57.442)

Yeah, I really believe in having a goal and it doesn't have to be a huge goal, but I mean, anyone should have a goal. It can be a tiny goal. You know, it can be, it can be making a small garden. It can be, I don't know, it can be making a painting. It can be, you know, but, you know, setting yourself a goal.

means that you have something to reach or to try to reach and that involves some planning and it really helps you think and it helps you plan and it helps you appreciate reaching that goal and maybe celebrate it when you finish. So having a goal, whether it's small or...

big or medium or huge. I think that's really a good thing. To do it twice, that was never, well, I shouldn't say never, but it was not really on my mind. And I remember promising my friends that I'm never going to have another goal, like a quantifiable goal, ever again after visiting the first time. And then I researched a book about the least visited countries in the world. It's called Elsewhere.

English.

Then I had to visit quite a number of, let's say, hard countries to visit. And in order to research the book, in order to find the figures, I mean, UNWTO, the UN's World Tourism Organization, they have a list over visited numbers to every country, except for the least visited. So, you know, those numbers I had to find for myself, talking to custom officials, talking to hoteliers, talking to people

Gunnar G. (48:39.892)

in airports and harbours and all the rest of it. So for the first time ever somebody managed to put together a complete list of visitors to every country. And I had to go back to the least visited because the only countries without figures in UNWTO are those that don't employ anyone to count tourists because there are almost no tourists.

And then I realized, or somebody asked me, I can't remember who even, but they asked me, they said, wow, you've visited a lot of countries again. So how many countries have you visited twice? And then I said, that's a good question. I started, you know, I made this Excel sheet to sort of calculate and then I said, wow, I'm only missing, and this was after the book research. So I was only missing, I think 30 or even 28 or something like that. And I don't know, well, as you can guess, you know, that's, wow, okay. Well.

I could not resist setting this goal to myself. It came out of the blue and then I planned it and I can't remember. I didn't use two years. It came out in 2018, 2017. Yes, I finished only a year later. I guess I was triggered by the possibility of doing it as somebody made me aware.

of the possibility, I hadn't even thought of it. So it did come out of the blue.

And, you know, as I told someone once, I mean, no country deserves to be visited only once. And I really believe that. I mean, it sounds like an arrogant sort of quote or something. But at the same time, you know, if you really like a restaurant, you know, you will go back. You will keep going back. If you meet someone you like, you know, a good friend, you know, keep visiting them.

Gunnar G. (50:37.972)

this friend. And the same with countries. And I, you know, there's no country I wouldn't necessarily go back to. If I had the money, I'd go back to all of them. Yet again. And the same with countries, you know, every country is amazing one way or another, or many ways. And so I do believe that, you know, every country, every culture deserves to be, you know, visited and people there, you know,

are definitely worth getting to know, or at least trying to get to know them in one way.

So, yeah.

Tim (51:19.854)

You worked in the Norwegian broadcasting company for 20 years and you quit in 2021 to go all in on traveling, writing books, speeches, presentations. Was that a scary jump to make it all after having a full -time job but going all in on this?

Gunnar G. (51:39.778)

It was a bit scary, yes. I mean, having a full -time job, you also have a paycheck that comes every month. And suddenly I didn't anymore. In Norway, we are quite lucky, I'd say. As a writer, you can apply to get a grant or a scholarship to write a book. So you will actually get a grant in advance, given that you have a publisher and...

You have to apply for it, obviously. And if, what is it, the author association of Norway, if they like your idea, they might then give you a grant and that gives you some security. And I had a grant when I quit. So, you know, that was some sort of security, but I mean, that grant, you know, so it would last a year or so. And since then, it's all been on me to make my own money, to make my own living and pay the bills. So, yeah, it wasn't super scary since I had this scholarship.

and then it's gradually evolved and there has been moments, especially during the pandemic, of course there was no one wanting presentations, so that market kind of dried up. It's just about started getting back to what it was, or almost as good as it was, so hopefully I will be able to continue.

writing books and doing presentations full time. I do enjoy it. It's nice not having a boss. It's nice being able to decide your own days and deciding on what you want to do and being sort of free. It also helped me being able to be more with my family back on the West Coast as well. So fingers crossed it will last.

Tim (53:25.966)

The world is your office. You have a pretty nice office.

Gunnar G. (53:29.058)

It's not too bad, always a new view, so that's amazing.

Tim (53:32.878)

Yes, I mean, you've gotten to a point now where you don't just travel for yourself to a certain extent, but you're writing books, doing a lot of research. As much as you love traveling, are there ever moments where it feels stressful or where you put pressure on yourself because traveling is your work now and it almost feels like there has to be some results created from your traveling?

Gunnar G. (54:00.418)

Not necessarily. I mean, touch wood. I still haven't been hit by a writer's block and hopefully I won't. So it's been fine. Also I do enjoy staying at home in Oslo and I have this little cabin. It's a log cabin.

up in North, in Northern Norway, which is absolutely quaint and there's no car, no roads or anything there, no electricity, no nothing. So I do enjoy total relaxation in places like this. I'm totally comfortable not travelling and as long as you have some sort of an income.

it's fine and it's not stressful. But you know, we could be hit by another pandemic and it's quite hard to budget book sales. I mean, you never know whether a book is going to sell a thousand copies or a hundred thousand copies. I mean, some well -famous authors, obviously they know, but being a smaller author, then it's quite hard to budget. So I'm kind of depending on book grants, book sales and income from

from presentations. So yeah.

Tim (55:14.35)

tying things back to what you were talking about making sacrifices when it comes to traveling. And I'm a big believer that when it comes to sacrifices, to a certain extent, you have to think about what am I gaining and what you're gaining can be so much greater than what you might be giving up in the short term. And it's something that you said earlier, but it's a quote that I've heard you say before when it comes to traveling.

Not to travel would be an insult to my creativity, curiosity, and mind. And the tagline for this show, The Outworker, is that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but also the easiest to neglect. And I'm a massive believer, especially because I've experienced it, that traveling and experiencing new cultures and getting out of your small comfort zone and your small environment can have massive benefits.

on developing the relationship that you have with yourself. I would love to hear your perspective on how you think traveling can help people learn more about themselves and develop the relationship with themselves.

Gunnar G. (56:28.002)

I think realizing that everyone...

lives in the center of the universe, or at least everybody thinks they do, is very much eye -opening. I mean, me coming from the small village on the west coast of Norway, that's where my world view started. And then seeing not only Norway from the outside, but let's say the entire Western world or the Western bubble, where we have relatively high wages, we have holidays, we have strong passports, we're allowed to travel wherever we want.

rest of it. We're allowed to say whatever we want. We can believe in whichever religion we want or know we're a religion at all. You know, having all of this, we're very spoiled, you know, compared to most people in the world. And then traveling outside this bubble and seeing it from the outside and realizing that people living, you know, whether it's, yeah, it's North Korea or Burundi.

or in Kiribati. Obviously, people there, they look at themselves in the same way. They are from the center of the universe. And they might never have heard about Norway or the United States. Probably they've heard about the US. Most people have. Being the source of the biggest economy and, you know, with all your American films and American shows and American music and all the rest of it. But especially being from a smaller country or being from a state or a town in the US, you know, people have never heard about.

That's very much eye -opening and I think that's maybe one of the biggest benefits to sort of humble you as a person, you know, coming from one of the most, let's say, one of the wealthiest countries in the world. Both of us, essentially, the US and Norway. It's so easy to travel to other places and be arrogant and, hey, don't you know who I am? I'm from a very wealthy country.

Gunnar G. (58:27.86)

you peasants here, if you take that attitude, you've really lost. And I think if traveling, if being open to other people's cultures and their livelihoods and their backgrounds and the way they live and the way they have it, if you're not open to that and if you're not willing to talk about it and to learn from that and to be humble about it, I think...

nothing is ever gonna humble you and I think it's a bad thing to be arrogant and to think higher of yourself than other people and traveling certainly helps or certainly should help to make you see the world in a different shade if you like or in a different light.

So maybe that is actually the best reason to travel, that together with the not only observe but do also participate aspect of travel. Go all in, do things with people that live there and...

be receptive to their ways of living. I think those are probably the best things I've picked up throughout the many years I've been on the road.

Tim (59:57.102)

Yeah, you definitely get an incredible opportunity to step outside yourself and not just think about yourself and you. I mean, it's cliche, but you realize how massive the world truly is and how different people think and different people act. And it allows you to be in new environments and create that new identity for yourself and new worldviews. Gunner work in people go to.

find you and support you and all of your work.

Gunnar G. (01:00:29.282)

They can find me probably easy to see on social media probably Instagram or Twitter where I'm just Garforce. I also have a website Garforce .com

We're the only family in the world called Garthors actually, so we're quite easy to find online through a simple search. I'm happy to hear from anyone and feel free to ask questions on social media. I try to answer as many as I can at least.

Tim (01:01:02.766)

Gunnar, I appreciate you for coming on The Outworker.

Gunnar G. (01:01:06.178)

Tim, thanks a lot for having me. It was a pleasure.