#096 - Mark Gober - Why Consciousness Doesn’t Come From The Brain

Mark Gober went from Wall Street analyst to exploring consciousness, psychic phenomena, and the science of spiritual awakening. He opens up about the burnout that broke his identity, the hidden research that changed his worldview, and why he believes the brain filters consciousness instead of creating it. We unpack soul, synchronicity, and how chasing external success often blocks internal alignment. This conversation might shift the way you see yourself and the deeper nature of reality.

Timestamps:
00:00 College Thesis On Prospect Theory
03:32 Becoming An Investment Banking Analyst
05:30 Moving To Sherpa Technology Group
08:57 The In-Between Chapter Into Enlightenment
23:24 Putting Your Identity & Reputation On The Line
27:00 New Canvas, Same Mindset
29:14 The Internal Impact Of This Work
32:28 Understanding Consciousness
38:14 Becoming More In Touch With The Mind & Less In Touch With The Brain
41:49 Being A Messenger 
46:05 Life Feeling Weird
47:23 Impact Of Environment On Consciousness
49:12 Connected To Spirit & Disconnected To The Material World
53:05 Being Exposed To Scary Stuff
55:00 Relationship Between Soul & Consciousness
59:00 Subtracting & Letting Go In Life
1:00:02 Connect With Mark Gober

Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.

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Chapters

• 0:00 College Thesis On Prospect Theory
• 3:32 Becoming An Investment Banking Analyst
• 5:30 Moving To Sherpa Technology Group
• 8:57 The In-Between Chapter Into Enlightenment
• 23:24 Putting Your Identity & Reputation On The Line
• 27:00 New Canvas, Same Mindset
• 29:14 The Internal Impact Of This Work
• 32:28 Understadning Consciousness
• 38:14 Becoming More In Touch With The Mind & Less In Touch With The Brain
• 41:49 Being A Messenger
• 46:05 Life Feeling Weird
• 47:23 Impact Of Environment On Consciousness
• 49:12 Connected To Spirit & Disconnected To The Material World
• 53:05 Being Exposed To Scary Stuff
• 55:00 Relationship Between Soul & Consciousness
• 59:00 Connect With Mark Gober
• 1:00:02 Subtracting & Letting Go In Life

Transcript

Mark Gober went from Wall Street analyst to exploring consciousness, psychic phenomena, and the science of spiritual awakening. He opens up about the burnout that broke his identity, the hidden research that changed his worldview, and why he believes the brain filters consciousness instead of creating it. We unpack soul, synchronicity, and how chasing external success often blocks internal alignment. This conversation might shift the way you see yourself and the deeper nature of reality.

speaker-0 (00:00.066)

Mark, welcome to the show.

Hey Tim, thanks for having me.

You've widely become known for writing your, an end to upside down series, but I want to start in the prequel of your writing career. When you were in college, your thesis on prospect theory, what exactly was that about?

Yeah, so I'll give even the prequel to that, how I came to writing a thesis on that, which is behavioral economics. So when I got to Princeton, I didn't know what I wanted to study. I was on the tennis team there, so that was a big part of my life. And I decided to start off in the economics department because I thought that would be a good base for the rest of my life to just learn about how the world works economically. And I realized that I didn't want to major in it after I was in my sophomore year. I was actually gonna be...

in the economics department as a major and a finance certificate, which is the equivalent of a minor at Princeton. So I was set on that track. And then I heard about behavioral economics and was looking at the psychology department. So I ended up switching majors. I thought it would be more interesting and practical to understand the human mind and just how people make decisions. And so I switched to the psychology department and blended it with economics because I had studied that before. And that's my thesis was on behavioral economics. That's how I got.

speaker-0 (01:15.33)

What exactly did you learn through that entire process, especially that writing process?

Well, it taught me how to sit down and write because I didn't really enjoy writing. And it also taught me how to frame a question and look at a problem that's been examined for a while in a new way. And prospect theory is something Daniel Kahneman won the Nobel Prize for. And one of his core findings, well, there's one that sticks out, losses loom larger than gains. Meaning that if you lose something, it feels worse than a gain feels good.

Hahaha

speaker-1 (01:50.35)

but that has implications also for how people determine their risk preferences. And this was the core finding. And I'll give a very simple example. I'm gonna give you a bet. You can take option A, which is $50 for sure, or option B, which is we flip a coin and if it's heads, you get $100, and if it's tails, you get zero. Which one do you take?

Now I may add project to 50 bucks.

Most people do, not everyone, but people tend to be risk averse when you have a sure gain on the table. But if you flip it around to the domain of losses, where I say, okay, Tim, you're gonna lose $50 for sure, or we're gonna flip a coin and you either lose $100 or lose zero.

flipping that coin.

flip the coin. So that leads to all kinds of quote unquote irrational behavior. And what I looked at in my thesis is what is the reference point from which someone determines what's a gain and what's a loss. So if you have an expectation of a gain, is it really that you're already at zero or have you already mentally moved somewhere else? That's what I looked at in my thesis.

speaker-0 (03:00.364)

Yeah, it's really fascinating. And the reason why I wanted to go all the way back and start there is because obviously we're going to dive deep into your work and your, upside down series and talking about consciousness, but I'm really fascinated by like you as the person and sort of like the personal evolution and sort of like the transition that you went through rather than simply just the work that you do now. and coming out of college, like

you went on that sort of like normal conventional path that people would say, like you were a tennis player at Princeton, you you were deep in, like you said, behavioral economics. And then that leads you to being, you know, an investment banking analyst at UBS right out of college. Like, did that feel like really aligned to you at the time or was that kind of just like the rational next step you felt like?

It did not feel aligned at all. My first day on the job in New York, this was the summer of 2008, by the way. So this is, I was there during the financial crisis and I left in 2010. So was there during the heart of it. But I remember my first night there, I was up until 6 a.m. or something working with a spreadsheet that someone didn't fully explain to me how it worked. was an intern, summer intern, an MBA left me with a spreadsheet and there were all kinds of issues with it.

And I thought to myself, what am I doing here? Is this really what I wanna be doing? And I stuck it out. That's been my pattern historically is that I stick things out. But there was a big part of me that knew it was not aligned. I mean, I guess I knew when I was in the economics department that it wasn't aligned and I made the switch into psychology, which I found more interesting. But that whole period of my life, I didn't really have a core direction. I was mostly just trying to achieve and investment banking and even Princeton. These were things that sounded like they were top achievements.

So I wanted to go for them. But that was the only reason really. I didn't have a compass for why I was doing what I did.

speaker-0 (04:58.862)

So then what facilitated the switch to Sherpa Technology Group after that?

Well, it was a tough period to be in investment banking in the 2008 era. And I was also in a group at UBS that covered financial institutions, meaning that my clients were banks and insurance companies and asset managers. All the types of companies that were having problems, they were my clients. And I was at a major bank that was having problems. So it was an incredibly stressful time. And maybe if I hadn't been there during that time, I don't know. Maybe I wouldn't have had enough of a reason to want to leave. But I made a decision that I need to get out of here.

because I saw the career paths of the people that stayed and it's very compelling. It's almost like golden handcuffs. It's, well, just stay another year, just stay another year. And then it becomes like a cushy job. I mean, it's still hard working, but you know that you're gonna do well financially and it's relatively secure. And I wanted to get myself out of that cycle. So I was actively looking for other jobs. I actually had an offer to stay for a third year, because the analyst program is two years and some people get offered to stay for a third year. I declined the offer.

because I didn't want to accept it. then some people accept it and then they just leave anyway before the end of two years. But I didn't even want to have the possibility of staying. And I also wanted to be transparent. So they knew I would, I didn't have to hide that I was looking for other jobs because I was going to be done after two years. And interestingly, the story behind Sherpa, there was a night, this was in 2009, where I was, the way it worked in investment banking when I was there is that,

I worked for months straight without a day off, including weekends. And if I left before 2 a.m., especially when I first started, that was a good night. And I went from being a Division I tennis player to sitting in a desk in a chair all day. So you can imagine it was not good for my health physically and mentally. And there was this one night in 2009, I was working on a financial model, my associate came over and was trying to help me with it. And I basically passed out for a minute at my desk. Like I just kind of keeled over, just for a second or so.

speaker-1 (07:03.156)

And the associate said, hey, you should just go home. Why don't you take a little break? So I took a week off or something, saw a doctor. He said, your heart's fine. You just need to chill a little bit. But it was during that week off that I remembered that I had an email from one of my classmates at Princeton who told me about a new company that was forming. It was a spin out from the Boston Consulting Group, which is one of the big consulting firms in the world. And there were some really smart guys there. They were going to form.

company or they had already formed a company that was looking at intellectual property, meaning patents in particular. So companies, whether large or very large sometimes, like companies we've all heard of, and then sometimes smaller companies or even individual inventors. But these were all people that wanted to monetize or get the most value out of their inventions. So I thought it sounded like a cool way to blend what I done in investment banking with something that sounded more intellectually stimulating.

and I had forgotten that my buddy had emailed me about this because I was so busy working. So was during this week off, because I almost passed out at my desk, that I remembered his email. said, I'd love to talk to them. So I ended up getting in touch with this company and took the job. So I moved to Boston initially, and then most of my time at this company, which was about 10 years, was in Silicon Valley.

Yeah. Your body was literally speaking to you. was like, all right, like he needs a break here so he can be opened up to this new door. like you joined in 2010 and then getting into this next phase of your life, which was in 2016, where you really have like, almost like this awakening or this enlightenment. Like what was that six year period like, because that's still a large amount of time where you're still like within the corporate life, but not, guess, getting into this new.

sort of chapter of your life.

speaker-1 (08:51.086)

Yeah, when I switched firms and moved to Boston, it was clearly different in that I was at a smaller firm. I wasn't working at a high-rise in Manhattan, but in some ways it was harder because I had more responsibility and I learned a lot more, but I was doing all the work for these clients. And so it was somewhat of an extension of what I had done in New York where I was staying up super late. I had more flexibility with that in terms of I didn't have to be at the office all the time in the same way, but it was still drinking through a fire hose.

And I'm grateful for that, but it was not easy. So that pattern continued for years where even though I was learning more, I was then getting more responsibility. And then it was turning into managing clients and presenting to boards of directors and having more and more visibility at the firm. And that was consuming me. It was something I wanted to do because I was into it and I wanted to do well. But again, like I said earlier, I didn't have a compass for why I was doing any of this. Beyond I just wanted to achieve and I didn't know anything else.

Like failure was never an option. So if I was presented with something that I needed to achieve, then I had to do it. And then I would put everything off to the side. That is not a sustainable path, just so you know. At a certain point you crash. And what happened for me was that there were some things. So I went from the investment banking, great financial crisis of 2008. There was another crisis that many people don't know about, which I call the intellectual property recession.

Basically, which is that there were changes in the laws that have to do with how people can defend their patents if someone infringes on them. That makes it harder for a patent owner to get paid, basically, which makes it easier for companies to steal technology. So if I'm working with lot of companies that have valuable patents and the law changes and there's then case law that changes, judges made decisions that shifted how things work, then all of a sudden the assets we worked with were less valuable. And that hurt some of my clients.

And there were some deals that I worked on as a result of those changes that didn't go the way that I wanted. And then some things in my personal life with dating didn't go the way that I wanted. And I had this perfect storm of like, where is my life? And I was turning 30 at the time, didn't know what was next, didn't even know why I was in the field I was in professionally. why, I was thinking to myself, why did I spend all these years focusing on this stuff? Does it matter? And behind all of that was I had a metaphysical belief.

speaker-1 (11:14.742)

that life was random and meaningless because there's no God, there's no higher power, and anyone who believes in spiritual things is just superstitious. So I had a combination of life crises and no meaning and then no reason to even have meaning because I thought we live in that kind of universe. Because I thought that's what science was teaching us. The more we learned from science, the more we learned that anything spiritual or religious was just something from the past.

that we were transcending through modern science. That's squarely where I was. And that's a really tough place to be. At the time, I was not looking for something new in terms of beliefs. I was definitely thinking career-wise, should I be in this field anymore? Sometimes when there's a downturn, that's a great time to stay in because then you can withstand the tough times. And then when it picks back up again, it's a good thing. So I ultimately decided to stay, but I was asking those questions. And I started listening to podcasts that year.

I remember a buddy of mine forwarded me a Tim Ferriss podcast in 2016. It was with the venture capitalist, Mark Andreessen. And podcasts were newer at the time. And I remember thinking to myself, this is so cool. You can listen to smart people talk for hours in candid conversations. And I had a long drive from San Francisco down to Silicon Valley where our office was, and there was a lot of traffic. So it was good podcasting time. And I was listening to people talk about psychedelics and I was

very reticent to go in that direction for safety reasons, but people were talking about other things like meditation and sensory deprivation. So there's a place I went to in San Francisco all the time called Reboot Float Spa, where you sit in salt water on your back and because there's so much salt, you float and it's a pod. So it's basically a sensory deprivation tank, which is meditation on steroids. And I was exploring all this stuff and doing Wim Hof breathing. So different various breathing exercises to try to just shift my mindset and

do something different, because I was in a low state. I mean, this was in hindsight, a dark night of the soul. And astrologically, people would call it a Saturn return, which happens around 29, 30, depending on your chart where life gets shaken up. So this was happening to me and I didn't know it. And then I was listening to a podcast called Extreme Health Radio. And this is still on the air. It's a great show about alternative health. And I listened to a bunch of episodes. The hosts seemed really sharp, like they knew they had studied a lot and were credible.

speaker-1 (13:37.132)

And then one day, the next episode I had up was a woman named Laura Powers who talked about using psychic abilities and communicating with angels and interdimensional beings and speaking seriously about this. And the hosts of the show were taking her seriously. And that was kind of weird to me. And I remember at the beginning of that episode, they referenced a doctor, Richard Massey, who recommended Laura Powers. So there was all this credibility behind her and then she was talking about things that sounded crazy.

and things that I would have normally dismissed. So I listened to that whole episode, was really curious about it. And I actually listened back earlier to the beginning of that episode recently, because I did a session with Richard Massey, who synchronistically is here in Austin. He does family constellation work. I listened back to my episode, because I had first heard him on this, about him on this Extreme Health Radio podcast. And the host of the episode said something to the effect of, you know, we do these podcasts and you never know who's going to hear it and the impact it's going to have.

speaker-1 (14:36.546)

Like, yeah, chilling stuff for me to go back and listen to that. So I listened to her episode, and at the end of it, she goes, I have my own podcast called Healing Powers, and I've interviewed a lot of other people who have similar experiences. So I'm like, all right, I'm in podcast mode. I'll check out Laura's podcast. Long story short, I listened to every episode from 2016 back to her first episode in 2011 in a matter of weeks. And it was person after person describing this very similar view of reality where...

There's something interconnected spiritually that we don't see with our eyes, that psychic abilities are very much real. An afterlife is real, meaning our consciousness continues when the physical body dies. There was a lot of talk even about reincarnation and the recycling of a soul. So I didn't know what was true exactly, but I knew that something in the domain of what I would now call spiritual, something transcending the physical world seemed to be real. And then I came across lots of scientific papers, peer-reviewed research, for example,

The University of Virginia has a division of perceptual studies at the med school. I had never heard about that. They're studying near-death experiences, children with past life memories. The Institute of Noetic Sciences, which has been around since the 1970s, I'm now a board member, but 50 plus years of peer-reviewed research on things like psychic abilities, the mind's ability to affect the physical world. Dr. Dean Raden is the chief scientist there. The US government had a declassified program using psychic spies to find stuff.

So I saw these declassified documents saying this is a real phenomenon where people could send their mind in a faraway place in space and or time. I also learned that Princeton University where I was an undergrad had a lab for nearly 30 years run by the former Dean of Engineering studying phenomena like this. And I was an undergrad and didn't know it existed because it was so controversial they wanted to sweep it under the rug apparently. So I learned about all this stuff and could not believe that it existed because I thought I was pretty well educated and no one in my sphere

whether it was my family or people in the business world or classmates from Princeton, people were not familiar with this stuff. So it was a major point of cognitive dissonance. I thought I was with well-educated people and they don't know anything about these phenomena. And these are phenomena that would change the way we all look at life, world-changing stuff. So it took me a long time to reconcile, maybe just the science is bad. Am I missing something here? So I went all in.

speaker-1 (16:58.476)

I became completely obsessed. It shifted my social life. It shifted what I was doing outside the office, because I was still working. And I remember socializing the ideas with certain friends eventually of like, hey, let's get brunch, let's catch up. And then I'll just tell them about a few things that I'm learning about. And many of them were really interested and they would come back to me the next day or something and be like, hey, Mark, that conversation we had, I'm still thinking about it. It's crazy stuff. And so I was getting good feedback.

And a year into this journey of just researching obsessively, it was my friends from San Francisco remember what my apartment looked like, because I had these stacks of books that were just growing and growing. It turned into a library, because I would go on Amazon and order everything I could. And I would read a book and then it would refer me to other books. I had a full library of books. And I thought to myself one day, why don't I just put this into my own book and summarize the findings? And maybe because of my background, people will take it a little more seriously and I'll just.

have hundreds of citations and show there's a lot of scientific evidence here. And I should also, I said peer-reviewed research. If your audience is interested, I'm talking about things like a paper published in 2018 in American Psychologists, which is the official peer-reviewed academic journal of the American Psychological Association. As credible as you can get, talking about the statistical reality of psychic phenomena. I mean, I've heard no good rebuttal to that. Or another example.

the 2016 president of the American Statistical Association, Dr. Jessica Utz, she said, this is a direct quote, using the standards applied to any other area of science, it is concluded that psychic functioning has been well established. President of the American Statistical Association. So I said, okay, I've got to put this in one place and maybe it'll have an impact. And I was so excited to do it and I thought, okay, this is going to change people and it's going to change people in the way that my life has been changed. That was 2017.

Got really lucky to find a publisher, Bill Gladstone of Waterside Productions. The book was published in 2018 called An End to Upside Down Thinking. The next year, 2019, and I was a partner at my firm at this point, I put out a podcast series with Blue Duck Media called Where Is My Mind? where I interviewed many of the people that I wrote about. And that's still available. It's an eight episode series. You start at episode one, go to episode eight. You can binge it pretty quickly. It includes clips from the people that I interviewed. So it's more of a narrative docu-series almost.

speaker-1 (19:17.87)

Then end of 2019 hit, I'm in a great position in my career, had written this book, did the podcast series. I thought, well, that's my book, I'm done here. And realized I just didn't wanna do my job anymore. I mean, it was becoming harder and harder because I didn't feel quite as aligned. And even in the early days, I mean, the amount of work I was putting in, I always did have that question in the back of my mind, like, is this what I wanna be doing? I kind of got funneled because I went to Princeton that these are the things that you do. I didn't even think outside the box because I just wanted to.

do what seemed like the right thing. And for the first time, I just thought maybe I should give myself space and leave the firm. And that was one of the hardest decisions in hindsight that I've made because I was on a great career track where I had built up an expertise. I was in a partner role, had built a lot of industry contacts, had just a lot of good things where it seemed like a secure career, but it got to the point where even doing small things in the job felt like

like a taxation on my energy. So was really sensitive to that. Whereas when I was studying or learning about spiritual stuff, I was still interested in it. And I remember the day I made the decision that I was gonna tell my business partners I was leaving, the idea for book number two came in. Prior to that, I wasn't planning on writing more. My publisher always said, Mark, you're gonna write a bunch of books. And I was like, okay, I'd have to have some really important things to wanna talk about to get there. And then, so when basically I released the energy,

of the job, the idea came in, like it created space energetically. And so I left the firm and I actually transitioned out. So I was working part-time for a few months as COVID was transitioning in, also very synchronistic. And I wrote my second book.

Was that work that you were doing? The part-time stuff?

speaker-1 (21:02.338)

It was at my firm at Sherpa. So it just helping out with client stuff, but I didn't, yeah, it was just easier to transition that way. There were some existing clients. And during that period, I went on a few retreats in early 2020. I went on an Ayurvedic retreat, it's called Panchakarma for almost a week. And I took a week off. Then I did a silent meditation retreat for almost a week, took a week off. And in that week off, I wrote most of the first draft of an upside down living, then went on another almost week long meditation retreat.

Then the world shut down and I'm editing the book and submitted it to the publisher and then started seeing things in the world happening around 2020, which we all remember very well politically, medically, and asked a whole bunch of other questions. And long story short, that's led me on a journey to now write seven books on, so the second one, An End to Upside Down Living is about basically spiritual awakening and personal growth from a perspective of, maybe we're more than our body, then how should we think about living life?

The third book on liberty is about political and economic theory and tying it to metaphysics and consciousness. The fourth book is on contact with non-human intelligences, UFOs and aliens and spirits. The fifth book is a critique of the World Economic Forum. The sixth book critiques mainstream medicine and the seventh book critiques mainstream cosmological views. And that last book was published in September of 2024. And here we are at the end of 2025 and I have not been working on another book. So that's the story, Tim.

Sure. mean, just a truly remarkable unfolding and very synchronistic and spiritual, seems like of an unfolding for you. And it's awesome to hear that. Like tapping into that energy where you could feel it on an intuitive level, almost like a physiological level of like, this work doesn't feel right anymore. And listening to that.

speaker-0 (22:52.942)

It is hard though, I would say like, could be a fearful for a lot of people. I'm sure it was like a struggle to like, you have this transition of who you are as a person and it's like, okay, do I continue down this? Because like you, like you said, like, man, like I have this incredible life that I've built for myself here, especially within this new company. Like were you.

And you talked about like with your first book and then end upside down thinking like, you're like, okay, like my credibility and my identity here could like really help me. Was there also like a fear of like, Hey, I, like my credibility here, like my reputation just like as a person, but also like within the professional space, like might be put at risk here. Like people might see this in like a woo woo type of way.

Yeah, for sure. I was definitely nervous before the first book came out and I was really lucky that my colleagues were so open-minded because I worked in a field where we were working with inventions. In order to get a patent, by definition need to come up with something that's deemed to be novel and non-obvious to a person having ordinary skill in the art. So it's people coming up with new ideas that challenge the mainstream. And my colleagues read my book before it was published and they're like, you're doing the same thing. We're very familiar with this and that was great. But that doesn't mean that everyone around me.

was so welcoming. And even to this day, there are many people who get upset by the things I wrote about in that book. But what's happened to him is that each book after that, I've had to deal with the same thing of, these people used to like me, but now I'm gonna write about politics. And therefore by definition, I'm probably gonna lose half my audience at least. So I was really nervous publishing that book. And it's gotten that way with each one where I've had to get more and more comfortable with doing the thing that I think is right, even if other people don't like it. And that's a lesson.

that I think we all can work with. For me, it's been in a lot of fields of life that I've been trying to shed the desire to please others because that's how we tend to get ahead in this world where we're taught to just do what other people want us to do. Especially in my business career, being in client services, we had to bend over backwards. They were paying a lot of money for our advice and to compete against the other players, you had to go above and beyond. And if that meant staying up all night, then you do it to please the client. So that was my orientation, my wiring is to please people.

speaker-1 (25:09.118)

I'm writing books that are not gonna please people. But what I have found is that while some people fade away after writing about these topics, there are new people that come in that didn't expect, that are super aligned. And that's how I tend to look at this, is that we have to, generally speaking, it's my personal practice, is to try to stick with what's in alignment, because that will then magnetize the things that resonate with me, versus trying to force myself to be in things that are not aligned, which then can allow me to attract in things that are not in resonance.

And that can lead to all kinds of problems, including health problems, in my opinion.

Yeah, it's fascinating. was looking at Sherpa's website recently, actually, when I was looking more so into you and on their overview page, it says, we guide our clients as their Sherpa in their journeys. And I was like, it seems like Mark is still doing that just like within a totally different realm here. Like, does it still feel like that for you where it's like, okay, the work and the methodology may be different, but like,

Or like the work, the methodology behind it is the same, but it's kind of like the canvas has just changed.

Yes, and I remember vividly putting together that website and the marketing behind it and you nailed it, Tim. What I learned at my firm is really what I've continued to do. So was basically a 10-year training that I didn't realize was a training. And I give a lot of credit to my colleagues who are very brilliant coming from the Boston Consulting Group. They know how to take complex things and simplify it and the things to do and not to do in that process. So I made a lot of mistakes in that 10-year journey of not simplifying things or.

speaker-1 (26:46.22)

excuse me, or just not expressing things as well as I could have. So I really fine tuned that over many years after making a lot of mistakes and have basically just taken those skills into something that I find to be more resonant with what I care about. Is basically guiding people through a journey of, this is what you were told is true. Let's take you through step-by-step why that isn't the case. And there is an art to that that I've learned through the business world. I especially presenting to

high level management teams like CEOs or boards of directors, often they have a very short attention span. So you have to compress complex things. So was looking at intellectual property. So I had to compress complex technologies, complex legal issues, and then overlay the business strategy on top of it and convey that very quickly to people who don't have a long attention span.

Which is what I love most about your work is because you bring that corporate investment banking analyst mindset to this material now. So it still feels like you're able to consume it in a very grounded way. And what I'm most fascinated about your work and your writing is everything on consciousness. Like that is by far, I think what people can be like help people the most, especially the ones who

honestly feel like they are lost in the world or feel like they are just like, like it's, just me here, but like understanding like the oneness and how we're all connected. And I had, I had Evan Alexander on my show in the past and his book, proof of heaven and reading that story just completely blew my mind and like brought so many of these thoughts to the forefront of my mind in that moment. And like, obviously over times, over time, like

the thoughts on consciousness and that oneness can begin to dissipate or it's just not in the front of your mind anymore. But then when I started diving more so into your work, all those same thoughts and all those same feelings came right to the front of my mind again. And honestly, over the last couple of weeks, I have honestly just felt better. Because when you understand that material on consciousness, can really help. For you,

speaker-0 (29:06.894)

Do you go through those ebbs and flows at all? Or do you feel like you're so like deep within this that it's like always like in the front of your mind?

Sometimes it's deeper than others. I can totally relate to what you mean. And I remember when I first started on this journey, it felt like I would take one step forward by reading about all this stuff and listening to Eben Alexander on podcasts. And then I would go into a client meeting and say, wait, I don't think, how could this stuff be true? And I'm here in this very mundane office and I would take two steps backwards. And then I would take a few steps forward and back. That's how it would go. And it's still that way today. I mean, if things happen in life that can activate an old pattern, for example, it brings me very much into the physical world.

And then other things can bring me more into a spiritual state. So I think that's the balance of integration. And we hear that very often when someone has a near-death experience and then comes back in the world and has a difficult time integrating it or with psychedelic accounts or some major meditation experience. That's the challenge is how do we hold this knowledge of what is true about the basic level of reality with this everyday world? And what's so mind blowing about this, the implications of all this stuff?

is that there are things that we know on some level that we forgot that we know.

Yeah. And that's true for all of us. It's very mind blowing to believe that there are things that our mind is just not accessing. Basic things that at some point in our consciousness, which we don't remember, that we knew all these things to be true. And we have an amnesia to it.

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so true. Yeah, it's a

It's more of a removal than it seems like of a need to add a lot of the time. Like you were saying, like, oh, I need to give myself space. Like you need that space to allow yourself to understand that stuff again. And because it's like, it's there. And like you were saying, like going into consciousness, like when you have those out of body, those near death experiences, why does that happen? It's because your brain goes offline. So like, can you just dive deeper into

understanding unconsciousness and like what isn't necessarily just like commonly understood. Yeah.

So the typical framing around consciousness, which I should try to define, and I can't define it because it's not physical, but I'm gonna try. I think about it as the part of us that experiences. So if I say to you, I'm having a conversation with you, Tim, that I-ness, that sense of being is what I mean by consciousness. And the conventional perspective, which I learned about in the psychology department at Princeton, is that consciousness is merely something that emerges out of our brain.

There's a lot of chemical and electrical activity inside the structure in our skull, and we can measure all that stuff. And it's because of that activity that we are conscious. Another way to say it is that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of brain activity. It emerges, an emergent property. Now this to your audience probably sounds very basic. Of course that's true, because if someone gets in a car accident and damages a part of the brain responsible for vision, and they have a change in their eyesight, we can say, look, you changed this part of the brain,

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consciousness changes. You stimulate another part of the brain, the person's consciousness changes in another way. There are all these correlations between the state of the brain and the state of a person's consciousness. They're known as neural correlates of consciousness, NCCs. And that's what neuroscience studies. Change the brain with this way, consciousness changes this way. Okay, very simple. The leap that people then make, which I think is faulty, is they say because

the brain is so tightly correlated with conscious experience. It must be the case that the brain creates conscious experience. Why is that potentially wrong? Because correlation doesn't always imply causation. As Dr. Bernardo Castrop says, he's a philosopher in this area. He says, you've got a lot of fires at this, you have a lot of firefighters at the scene of a fire. And let's say you have a bigger fire and there are more firefighters that appear. Do you conclude that the firefighters

cause the fire.

mean, they're closely correlated. When there's a bigger fire, there's more firefighters. Alternatively, we could say that it must be the case that the firefighters were a creation of the fire. The fire has a mystical ability to manifest firefighters out of thin air, and that's why the firefighters are there. My point here is that when, just because you have things that are related to each other, it doesn't mean that one causes the other. There's another model that you could come up with to explain the relationship between all those things. And that's what I think we're doing.

with consciousness. That it's not the brain is creating consciousness, even though the brain is correlated with consciousness, it might be that the brain is like an antenna receiver or a filtering mechanism or something that's getting in the way of a broader consciousness and the brain limits what we perceive. An analogy that really stuck with me, I remember this in 2016, Dr. Gary Schwartz from the University of Arizona talked about this and also Larry Dossie, a medical doctor.

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that if you've got an antenna on your television set and you take a hammer basically and smash the antenna, all of a sudden the TV show on your screen, it's really scratchy. But it's not because the signal was damaged. The only thing that was damaged was the machinery that was receiving the signal. In the same way that if you have brain damage, the person's consciousness could be altered. But what if the signal is still there? The signal is the pure consciousness that is coming through the apparatus of your brain. And I would say it's even the full body system.

Okay, because when you start to move in that direction, it gets really weird. What is a human being then? If we are a receiver, transmitter, filtering mechanisms of consciousness, is our body a vehicle or a vessel of some spiritual identity that we have forgotten about? And as you're alluding to, Tim, in some cases, when the brain is out of the way, then people actually have an enriched experience of consciousness. The way that I've described this is less brain, more consciousness.

which is an anomaly. If you think the brain creates consciousness, you would think more brain, more consciousness. And Dr. Bernardo Castrop has written about this in Scientific American. And so this is becoming a more popular idea where, for example, in a near-death experience state where a person has little or no brain functioning, they talk about life being realer than real. And then they're resuscitated on the operating table and they describe the things that they saw hovering over their body and they got it right, meaning it's not a hallucination, from a vantage point outside their body.

crazy stuff and they're saying it's realer than real and they can see sometimes in omnidirectional 360 degree vision. So wait a second, more consciousness and enriched consciousness when the brain is barely functioning or sometimes completely off, even if someone wants to make the argument that, yeah, when you're close to dying, the brain does have a little bit of spike of electricity and sometimes people measure that. But is that little spike enough to explain a vision that's accurate from outside the body and the whole range of other things?

So we have this paradox and actually Dr. Bruce Grayson from the University of Virginia said this to me in my podcast series, Where is My Mind? He said, Mark, we're left with this paradox that at a time when the brain isn't functioning, the mind is functioning better than ever. The brain isn't functioning, the mind is functioning better than ever. It's only a paradox actually if you believe in the view that the brain creates consciousness known as materialism or scientific materialism. It's not a paradox at all.

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If we say there is some spiritual reality that we are tapping into and that's our true identity and the body is getting in the way of that, it's showing us a limited sliver of a much broader reality.

So how do we get more in touch with our mind, you think, and I guess less in touch with our brain?

This is the topic of spiritual practice basically and traditions all over the world have different ways of doing it. I like to divide it into four categories which come from the Vedic tradition, which is there's the category of knowledge and wisdom, selfless service, devotion and energy. And that's just a broad categorization. Knowledge and wisdom, selfless service, devotion and energy. And tapping into any of those to me helps us reconnect with this perspective.

So the pathway of knowledge and wisdom, for example, could be listening to podcasts like this, reading books. That's been my primary entry point. But what typically happens is that someone will have a primary entry point and then the other ones will start to come into their life. So if you understand the topics we're discussing today as scientific realities, not just superstition, then it would make sense to actually want to treat other people well because what this points us to is an interconnected consciousness. So the consciousness of I is actually the same

I as your I, that there's, as Dr. Kastrup calls it, a full stream of water, and water's analogous to consciousness. Each of us is a whirlpool within that stream. So we have individuation as whirlpools within an interconnected stream of water. That points to, well, if we're all part of the same water, we should wanna help each other. We get into the golden rule and things like that. So then selfless service becomes a natural consequence where you think, hmm, what am I doing in life that's going to serve others? Whether it's in the household or serving

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public at large. And then also devotion comes in of wait a second, if the source of my existence is not physical.

Let me take a step back on that one. The source of my existence is not physical. I would have told you 10 years ago that the source of my existence is physical because there was a big bang 13.8 billion years ago and a bunch of atoms colliding, which led to Earth's flying around the sun, flying in an expanding universe over a million miles an hour where we're this tiny little speck. And as a result of that, a human being evolved after many, many years, which developed a brain and consciousness came out of the brain. That means the source of my existence is physical stuff, basically coming from the big bang originally.

But now I'm saying, wait, consciousness isn't emerging from anything physical. That means the source of my existence. The reason I exist is from something that's not physical.

It's not a big leap to then say, there's no other reason for me to do anything in this world other than to serve the source of my existence. Because I wouldn't be here without that source. So then we start to have a devotional attitude of, what is this source? Some might call it the one mind, God, higher intelligence, whatever it is. It's a very quick logical step to say, okay,

I'm not here because of any, I'm not here because of exclusively physical things. I'm here because of something non-physical. I want to serve that source. And then to live life is in devotion of that. And then the last category, energy, that's very broad. It can be just working with the body. To me, working out fits in that category, but also meditation, breathing exercises, psychedelics, anything that alters the energetic system of the body.

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And so those are the four pathways to me to just try to tap in as much as possible. So it's a matter of how do we live life and then not lose track of those four categories.

I love that breakdown and like it's going back to that. I feel like that investment baking analysis, because that is a very grounded approach that people can take like day one after listening to this. Yeah. Do you feel like more of a conduit and a messenger for all the work that you do now, rather than like the one being in control?

Yes, more and more, and it's definitely a practice because that was my upbringing was always to want to control things and letting go of control and understanding that causality is not derived from the physical exclusively. Meaning the reason things happen in the world isn't because of little billiard balls at a microscopic level interacting and one thing hitting the next, hitting the next, which is a very linear view of why things happen, of causality. Now I think things happen because of non-physical forces and intelligences that we don't fully understand.

So surrendering to that and saying, I'm gonna act, but I'm also going to sit back in a way and surrender to whatever that is and let life unfold. And it's led me to wanna do the things that I do. It's why I write the books, it's why I have these conversations, because I think there's a higher purpose behind it. And ultimately, that's the reason I think we're all here, is to be of service in that way. And it might manifest differently. So I don't want your audience to think, well, now I have to write a bunch of books and leave my job.

Me, that's my path, but it might be as simple as you just go about your job in the office differently. Yeah, or with your family, whatever it is. You figure out what resonates with you.

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for energy.

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Yeah, for me, largely, it's this podcast and I find it interesting that, yeah, everyone's got their own entry point into this. And I feel like the entry point that I've tapped into with people or where my natural curiosity goes with the entry point with the people I talk to is that kind of unwilling experience. Like, obviously, like I was saying, Dr. Edmund Alexander, his entry point was that near death experience. And I feel like

Like for me, the entry point was an unwilling experience of, you know, pain and suffering and going through like a lot of chronic pain. I had mystical and spiritual moments throughout that entire journey. And like, that was the entry point now that's led into other paths. so I do find it really fascinating for you that like, knowledge was the entry point. And obviously that like aligns with your life and

where you've had entry points and other ways, but I do find it really fascinating. Like within this material, like it wasn't type of experience, but it was more so just like info. Like have you had, you think, either like smaller unwilling experiences like that that have played into this or what are your thoughts there?

Well, what you just described is a very common path in spiritual awakening, which I write about in my second book, and end upside down living, where usually people start to have big challenges in life and it propels them in a new direction. And when the challenges become loud enough, there's no choice but to look elsewhere. And in that sense, I had it. I had a dark night of the soul because I was totally lost. And it felt like when I learned about this stuff, it was literally a rebirth. Because in many ways I was dead. I was a zombie. That version of me died and I had,

went as far as I could go for the first 30 years of my life, basically. And it was highly intellectual in that when I learned about stuff, it had a big impact on me, but I also worked with a lot of people who had psychic abilities and I started to do energy healing work. So there was some of that too, and meditating and breathing. I was having some direct experiences through that, and then the meditation retreats certainly helped reinforce that. And then more recently, some experiences in the psychedelic realm that just validate a lot of what I've written about.

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Like, obviously that's real. It's good to know the science backs that up. So there has been some mystical stuff for me, but it's been more just my life is mystical. The way things unfold synchronistically, rather than the big Eben Alexander week long coma near death experience. It's just been more synchronistic that my life has even gone this way or writing the books is a mystical experience for me. I I sit down at the word processor, Microsoft Word, I open it up and before I type, I explicitly say I am a conduit.

there are higher benevolent forces out there, please write this book through me to help the most people possible. And then the way the book unfolds is unbelievable. It's like I go to bed, I don't know how I'm gonna get the next chapter done, and then it just flows seamlessly.

That's your out of body experience right there. Yeah. Yeah, it's remarkable. I I've heard you talk about like, it felt like you were kind of just like in this treadmill going through life. What does it feel like now, like the way that you move through life now, if you had to describe it in sort of like a similar type of language?

It was a treadmill where I was sprinting, but not really getting anywhere. That's what it felt like, at least in terms of my happiness or satisfaction. Now, now it's just weird.

Hahaha!

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I don't know. don't even- Life is, yeah. I don't know what's next, especially, I really surrendered. I took a leap, leaving my firm and then COVID hit. So I had really like, I didn't have a wife and kids to worry about or anything, like just total nothingness, which is a weird place to be. And I've had many years of that. I'll let you see what unfolds in front of me. And that's led me even coming here to Austin. I mean, I didn't, I wasn't planning on living here. I was nomadic for a while. I was invited to give a talk.

at the Young Presidents Organization. Brett Hurt was kind enough to invite me. He hosts the Love, Conquer, Fear podcast now. That was back in March and he encouraged me to check out Austin. He said, there's a lot of interesting people here. So then I got an Airbnb, tested it out and it's like, you know, that sort of thing where I flow much more.

I resonate with that on such a deep level. And I guess that's another great question to ask. mean, what, what do you think the impact of environment has on consciousness? Like you, you know, you lived in New York city, you lived, you know, in San Francisco on two coasts, now in a place like Austin, Texas, just like for me personally, I'm originally from Connecticut. lived in New York city for two years. I came here, last October for a retreat day one. It was just like, I'm moving here. Yeah.

So like what role do you think environment has on energy and consciousness?

huge role and it's difficult to explain because certain people resonate with certain places and who knows why. I some people would say it's a past life resonance or there's something called astrocartography. In the field of astrology, there are actually lines that correspond with astrology that are optimal for certain areas of growth or sometimes suboptimal or challenging. So based on your birth date, place and time, you can look at locations all over the world and see what lines up.

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And so that could be an element of it. mean something in the blueprint of a person that makes them resonate with the place. I thought this with Austin for many years. I I was here for Aubrey Marcus's podcast and then Alex X podcast. So things kept bringing me back here year after year. And I was like, I just like visiting here. It's fun. And then when Brett invited me, it really was the last straw. So I think it's a matter for all of us of finding out what is the energetic resonance. And sometimes it's not a hatred or a repulsion. It's just a neutrality of like, this is okay.

versus, I feel really pulled to this. And what I've tried to do, it's a big practice, is to just do the things where I feel really, really pulled. And if it's just a meh to the extent that I cannot do it, then I try not to. And it means saying a no to a lot of things. Most things are a no at this point. Very few things are a yes. And that's a practice for me, because I was used to saying yes to most things.

There's a quote that you use a lot in your books that I want to hash out a little. say, or it's a quote from Gnostic teaching, the rulers threw humanity into a state of confusion and toils that they would be distracted with the things of the world and not have time to be focused on the Holy Spirit. When understanding the relationship there between the world and spirit, do you think the more

people go through that type of awakening or enlightening and they feel like, okay, I'm connected with spirit. Do you think that equally means more disconnection with the material world?

To me, it means just a recontextualization of what the material world is. Getting more more connected with spirit helps us acknowledge that this world is, in the Hindu tradition, they call it the Maya. It's an illusion to some degree. It doesn't mean it's not important, but what we deem to be physical is not so physical. And it often takes people to have a direct experience to really nail down what I just said. Sometimes it can happen with meditation, psychedelics, near-death experiences. To those people, it is so obviously true what I just said. But when we're...

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in this densified world, it's hard to appreciate that as much. The other part of that quote that I want to highlight is that, so these are Gnostic texts that were found, they're called the Nag Hammadi scriptures found in 1945 in Egypt and they were translated in the 70s. They have a cosmological worldview basically of the origin of humanity. And it has this perspective that there is a unified consciousness that spawned off different beings from it. like individuations off of the oneness.

And one of those beings went rogue and had a, it was very disconnected from source and then created this world where the human beings would have the divine connection within them. But this is very jealous being would want to keep the humans disconnected from what they call the Holy Spirit. And it was the goal of this being and his minions to imprison humanity. And so this speaks to something very important that has shifted my work. It speaks to deception.

that is built into the reality that we inhabit. And it has a darker connotation. And sure there is a lot of love and light. And I think the ultimate reality is that, and we have access to it here, but it speaks to a dark overlay to it, which is not that hard to see if we look at the world around us and human history. There's a lot of dark stuff here. And when I wrote my first two books, I would say most of the people who resonated with my work were in that love and light category.

because spirituality points us in that direction. And then when 2020 hit and I started to become more aware of deceptions in the world within the media and the politicians and the medical community, I was really frustrated because I said, wait a second, a lot of the people who espouse spiritual ideas that I agree with, they're missing the point on the deception. It's almost like a lack of discernment and or spiritual bypassing, meaning they don't wanna look at the dark because I don't wanna put my energy there. Whereas wait a second, if there's something fundamentally deceptive about this place,

It's irresponsible not to know about it. So there's a lot of nuance in this stuff and that's why it's taken seven books to get into it, to understand, yes, the spiritual stuff is fundamental and important. And my first book and end upside down thinking, I think it's really important. I would say it's necessary, but insufficient. It's insufficient in that we have to understand the nuance of duality, where there's non-duality is just the oneness, which I think is real. But within that, there are the whirlpools within the stream.

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and maybe it's multi-dimensional whirlpools, and maybe some of those whirlpools wanna hurt other whirlpools or keep them imprisoned or keep them in a state of confusion. And that's where my mind is very often, trying to understand that nuance of, there's light and dark, and then at the same time, it's only light.

Yeah, mean, light can't exist without darkness. Joy can exist without pain. Going deeper into that darkness.

Has there been stuff that you've uncovered through your own educational journey with all this that obviously you come, you're coming at this from the standpoint of a student. So you, want to consume it all. want to take it all in, but has there been stuff that you've learned that personally maybe was just like a little off setting or you were just like, Whoa, man, like, you know what? I wish I didn't learn that.

Yeah, a lot of that. And so this was, most of it was 2020, 2021 for me when I was learning about the really, really dark stuff. Cause I had heard about the really light stuff, about angelic beings and how they can heal people and the bliss that people feel. There's the opposite side of the spectrum of that, of evil that is difficult to fathom, of trying to harm others to such a diabolical degree that most people would think it's not possibly true. That's the short version of it. And I've sprinkled in my later books,

elements of that, of let's just say the general category of people acknowledging that dark spirits exist in other realms and that there are ways to tap into them and actually gain power by essentially selling your soul. And that entails doing horrific things to other living beings in a ritualistic manner. So I've chronicled some of that in the books and I've always wanted to just show enough not to traumatize people, but to also let them know this is real.

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And I've been told on multiple occasions of like, Mark, that thing you wrote about, I had to skip over it, for example. And I was even trying to be tame with it. So there's this balance I've tried to strike of knowing that these things exist without getting consumed by it. It's like you dip your toe in as much as you can to say, okay, I know this is real and I've learned enough. And then I'm not gonna be all in with it. And that's been my balance over the years.

Another word that you just use there, soul. What's the relationship between soul and consciousness? Are those similar? Are those synonyms to a degree or?

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Because just as a caveat, like soul is a word that increasingly just like continues to like just be on my mind or like I'll see it and it just like, feel an energy behind.

To me, it's an individuation of the universal consciousness, a multi-dimensional aspect of the whirlpool. So your identity, when you say, am Tim, that I has layers to it. On one level, that I is all of reality, all consciousness, the entire stream, but there might be other layers. So there might be Tim as the person in the body, but then the spiritual spark that enlivens the body that we call Tim.

we might call that the soul. So it's like spiritual part of you as an individuated being that transcends the body. And it might be layered. People talk about over souls. And I've heard even the notion of a split incarnation where there can be a soul that splits off into two different bodies or multiple bodies at once. I don't know how it works, but I would say that the soul is an individuated part of you. That's not the entire stream of consciousness. That is beyond the body that will exist when the body dies and has existed before this body existed.

Yeah, I feel like for my personal journey, I feel like what could really help with people. it goes back to that, like that four step framework. feel like the overarching goal or idea for me is like, okay, how do I tap more into soul? How do I get closer to that? Yeah.

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I think it's a journey for each of us to know what that is. Like what do you resonate with? And it might shift. That's what I find for myself at certain points I wanna read a of books. Right now don't wanna read a lot of books for some reason. I wanna do other things. So it's like just feeling into what is right for you and not judging what you want versus what others want because you might be on a different part of the journey. And actually my second book, and End Upside Down Living, I try to bring in the wisdom from a lot of the teachers I learned from, mostly in books and things like that and put it into a short summary.

And it's a book that I, in terms of the concepts that I keep coming back to because there's such wisdom in what some of these teachers have said. So like you talked about the idea of letting things go as part of our spiritual awakening journey. It's really a process of subtraction. Something I wrote about in the book that like Dr. David Hawkins talks about a lot, for example. Meaning that as he said jokingly once, the way to become enlightened is to stop being unenlightened. Just let go of all the stuff that we've been conditioned with.

That's such a profound thing. It's easy to say in one sentence, but to actually let go of all these belief systems, how many belief systems do we have about the way the world works, about our own self that we have to shift? It's like an ongoing process that seems endless.

Yeah, we, had Gary John Bishop, an author on a few months back and he said, we have this understanding and this notion of like, we're always looking for something else. Like we're always looking for something where he's like, I believe like in actuality, what we're looking for is nothing. And being in that state of nothingness. And I've had other people talk about like, I had Jeff Krasnow on who was talking about like fasting was like a big part of like, he was.

he had developed diabetes and like fasting was a big part that like helped him, you know, regain his health and fasting was not just a, you know, a physical thing, but it became a spiritual thing because it was that state of nothingness where like, I'm not doing any here, anything here. Let me just be in that state of nothingness where I'm subtracting everything. And I think that's what tapping the soul is like, where it's like, it's not so much of a, need to gain stuff. And it's like getting out of that, you know, material world.

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And it's like a removal of the stuff that, you know, just staying in the West.

These are just different ways of unlocking the filter. We have a filter that our body imposes us as a biological organism. So we see the world through that narrow lens. And there are things that we can do to unlock the filter and really experience what we are. And what's the end result of that? I mean, you hear about spiritual people like Dr. David Hawkins, he would say that his body was literally animated and it was functioning autonomously. So it was going about the day by itself without his control. And he would say, arm moved. He wouldn't even call it my arm.

because basically he was being operated by the divine force, which we probably all are, but we just don't realize it.

What do you think your continued evolution through life looks like?

Subtracting. Yeah, there's stuff I still need to let go of.

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Mark, thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Your work, but also, like I said, the way that you approach the work and the energy behind your work resonates on a deep level. And I think it could really help a lot of people. Where can people go to learn more about you, your books, anything else you'd want to share?

Well, first, Tim, I wanna thank you for having me on and for all the work you're doing. I think it's really important getting these ideas out there. So I know you're helping people. And sometimes as a content producer, you don't always know the people you're affecting. Like at Extreme Health Radio, I heard a podcast and they changed my life through that. So I know you're doing that too. I wanna thank you for it. In terms of my work, my website, it's a good place to start. It's markgobber.com, M-A-R-K-G-O-B-E-R.com.

All seven books are on Amazon in hard copy, Kindle and Audible formats. And I was the narrator of all the audibles, if you prefer that. I know some people don't like to actually read anymore and they prefer listening on the go. So any of the books are on Audible. And my podcast series, that's a good place to start for my work. It's called Where Is My Mind? Eight episodes, you can binge it really quickly, but I suggest starting at episode one. It's on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, all the major players.

Awesome. Great talk with you today.

Thanks Tim, you too.