#121 - Kamal Ravikant - Stop Trying To Understand Yourself—Do This Instead

Kamal Ravikant believes one of the biggest mistakes in personal growth is thinking that understanding yourself will change your life. In this conversation, we explore self-love, identity, success, failure, and why so many people stay stuck despite years of working on themselves. Kamal argues that transformation doesn't come from endless self-analysis. It comes from changing the way you relate to yourself every day.

Timestamps:
00:00 Getting Kamal On The Podcast After 2 Years
02:14 The Origins Of Self-Love
08:46 The Difference Between How & Why
14:52 The Worthiness Trap
16:34 A Messenger For Self-Love
21:52 Being A Student Of The Craft & The Pursuit Of Simplicity
24:21 What His Readers Taught Him
29:35 Removing What's False Or Seeing What's True
34:59 What's This Whole Show About?
35:42 Finding Magic In Your Life
38:30 The Danger Of Coasting
41:08 Saving Yourself vs. Loving Yourself
42:37 Finding The Universal In The Personal
49:58 Running Clinical Trials In His Head
51:02 The Power of "If"
53:53 Thinking Loving Thoughts To Feeling Love In Your Body
55:39 From Self-Love To Life Love
57:18 Learning To Trust Life
1:02:13 The Power Of Writing Without An Audience
1:05:14 Is Distraction The Opposite Of Self-Love?
1:11:09 Connect With Kamal Ravikant

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Transcript

Kamal Ravikant believes one of the biggest mistakes in personal growth is thinking that understanding yourself will change your life. In this conversation, we explore self-love, identity, success, failure, and why so many people stay stuck despite years of working on themselves. Kamal argues that transformation doesn't come from endless self-analysis. It comes from changing the way you relate to yourself every day.

Tim Doyle (00:03.592)

Kamal, welcome the show.

Kamal (00:05.57)

Thanks for having me, man. I was just saying before, you are probably the most persistent podcaster I've ever met in my life. I'm very impressed. You've been chasing me now for what, a couple of years?

Tim Doyle (00:13.832)

probably a couple of years, but I think the funny thing is is that I think when I sent my first email to you, you responded within twenty minutes of let's do it and then that kind of just trickled out for a couple of years, so I knew that I had you on the hook to a degree, and I knew I needed to get you back. Yeah.

Kamal (00:29.238)

No, I appreciate it, man. I appreciate your persistence. You know, which is actually such an incredible c like trait. you see that in a water a lot of very successful people. So

Tim Doyle (00:39.11)

Yeah, I mean it's a it's a game of patience. It it definitely is a game of persistence. I it's funny, I I tell people, you know, they say like, got to me when you know, reach back out to me when you get to, you know, episode one fifty or, you know, two hundred or whatever it is. And I'll say, like, all right, well, I did this with Seth Godin actually. I was like, Seth, I I heard that you only go on podcasts that are with people with triple digits. I said like I'm at episode forty

Kamal (00:59.918)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Doyle (01:09.122)

One or whatever. at one episode a week, that'll put me at I think the date was February sixth, twenty twenty six, that I'll reach out to you. So it's on my calendar. And earlier this year, that's exactly what happened. I reached out to him. But it's yeah, it's just it's doing the simple stuff. Yeah, he we we're still in the process of finalizing things, but he responded right away. It just wasn't the right timing for him. But yeah, just

Kamal (01:25.78)

And did did it reach back? Did it reach back?

Tim Doyle (01:36.55)

Being obsessed with the the simple things I feel like makes you stand out.

Kamal (01:41.344)

It does, man. It really does.

Tim Doyle (01:43.762)

So diving deeper into your work here, starting with patience, but let's talk about self love. Do we all start in a state of loving ourselves, you think, when we're born into this world and then slowly grow away from that love?

Kamal (01:58.735)

Man, that's a hell of a question. Having been a baby once, I'm qualified to speak from my experience and my experience only. And having watched other babies, look, we all assume we do. Like babies, you know, like I mean, I think haven't they done studies that babies who don't get love die? Like there were some like studies way back, right? Like they're wired for it. as far as

As far as like losing that as we get older, I mean I was talking to someone about this yesterday. It's like no one teaches us, like people tell us you should, you know, love yourself, but no one teaches us how to. And and then the world is almost like, you know, I mean, just look going up in life, kinda like, like it's it's such a fundamental thing. Like when I look at myself now, how I feel about myself, you know, it's like a real love. And I wish I'd had this, you know, when I was younger, when in my twenties, whatever, man, the trajectory of my life would have been very different.

so I don't I mean, you asked me a deep like psychological question. I'm not a psychologist, I'm not qualified to answer it. I'll just speak from my experience. I'm like, look, I didn't learn to love myself. As far as I remember, even as a child, like, you know, what I do remember is the opposite. And it's not like someone told me to think that way. It's just like you said you just pick up these patterns from society around you, your parents, your your their friends, your friends, whatever, life experience.

And it just like compounds. The brain just runs its patterns and it almost becomes your identity. And and it's something I've learned is like the most important thing we have is our identity, because we will do whatever it takes to stay consistent to that. But unfortunately, a lot of times our identity involves things that are actually negative for us, or thinking negatively about things, or expecting things negative about things. Well, why can't it be the other way? It's not like we were born with an identity, like a complete identity that I am today. Like that was

created over time by experience. Well you can create, you can actually choose to create the new identity that you want of yourself, how you feel about yourself, how you feel about yourself compared to others, how you feel about yourself in the world, how you feel how the world responds to you. All of that it just comes from identity. You can actually sit down and create a new one for yourself. And for me, the way I did it, I didn't realize it back then that I was doing it, but it was an identity purely based on loving myself, which actually changes everything.

Kamal (04:21.422)

You know, because if you love yourself, you you just like the identity that identity then makes better choices just naturally. You know, you turn down things. I was telling you, I was talking to friend of mine. you know, the first time he slaps you is should be the last time. And because that's it. Because P, you know, it's like it's like you can choose, right? And it's like if you love yourself, true love yourself, you're like, nope, that's it. First time, last time. That's it, you're right.

Like it really helped you I'm giving it the extreme choice, right? But she had actually been in a marriage that was abusive, and we were just talking and and but it's like literally and and I you know, when you'd really do that, you set you'd such better boundaries and just what you're willing to accept and tolerate from others versus not. You know. so I think it really comes down to I identity and you're not born with one that's manufactured and created over time and and

What we're not taught is, hey, you can actually change it. It takes work, it takes inner work. But you can literally change your identity, and your identity drives everything in your life and you will change your life. It's that simple.

Tim Doyle (05:28.677)

Yeah, the w yeah, I mean, the way that I've come to understand it and what I feel like has really helped me is seeing it as this relationship between identity and soul. And when we enter into this world, what we are at our core is a soul. And when we enter into s to society, we you know, the price that we have to pay to be a member of society is to build an identity to a degree.

And the work is kind of, I guess, breaking through that identity so that the soul can come back to the surface. And I feel like that's also why we love babies, is because we can feel the purity and and we can see and feel the soul. And the reason why I wanted to start there as well. I mean, you have this really interesting quote in your book. You say, We as human beings think that we're thinking, not true. Most of the time we're remembering. And I feel like self-love to a large degree is a remembering and it's a remembering of how to get back to that purest part of ourselves, which is the soul.

Kamal (06:24.215)

That's a very that's a great take on it. You know, I don't even differentiate between those. You know, like that's just a deeper self. That's the the the inner you know, what like some mystics call the inner man who watches, right? That's like that's always been there, always will be there, you know, watching the show happen. that's always available to us. I focus more on the human part. Right. And I think that just leads you to this anyway, but like

I remember when I was doing my love of self practice, I wasn't trying to do anything deep. I was literally just trying to change my mind about how I felt about myself. And that leads you to you know, the funny thing is, all that leads you to death. It leads you to so I don't think we need to go around in my experience, like, hey, am I in touch with my soul or not? Literally, like, how am I feeling about myself? Right? Make myself feel great about myself. You know, that's what I did, like made myself love myself, right? Through the practice. And

And that just gets you in touch with the deeper part. I think the deeper part is always there. We don't even need to I don't know, honestly don't even know if we need to say like I need to work on the this aspect. Just work on yourself. And the better you get, the more loving you get, the more you're gonna connect. It's just gonna connect with it. Does that make sense?

Tim Doyle (07:40.315)

Yeah, i it makes complete sense. And I think that's why your work and your writing is so powerful, is because it grounds self-love as a practice and it makes it very practical for people. And then that naturally can shift into our identity and our sense of being. But if you did it the other way around of, you know, focusing on the identity or the or the being part of it, I think you can lose people or it becomes a little bit

too abstract to understand. And I think what's also really important talking about these, you know, we're talking about this relationship between identity and soul or, you know, practice versus being, I think another really crucial relationship is the difference between the how and the why. And I've heard you talk about this a lot as well. And I think it's really important, you know, when it comes to self love, we need to focus on the how.

Kamal (08:10.381)

Dango, dango, dango.

Tim Doyle (08:37.211)

You know, how do I solve this problem? How do I love myself? Because when we do that, we put self-love at the core and then everything builds off of that. But I feel like within our culture and society today, we've become so obsessed with the why. You know, why does this problem exist? You know, why, why, why don't I love myself? You know, why am I even in this place to begin with? And

Kamal (08:54.177)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's that's good. That's good.

Here's something yeah, yeah, here's something I'm sorry to interrupt, but it's like I gotta tell this there's something I've thought of. if you're in fire, do you wanna sit there and figure out why combustion happens? You know, what is the nature of water and is why is water hydrophilic or hydrophobic and like how does it react with heat? Do you really wanna figure that out or do you wanna just like, you know, have someone wrap you in a towel and roll you around?

Tim Doyle (09:11.963)

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Tim Doyle (09:25.031)

Exactly.

Kamal (09:25.323)

Right? Like like that's literally if you look at it that way, if you're walking around with a brain that is a mind that is not your friend, that is not looking for your best self, you're on fire. Okay, put the fire out.

Tim Doyle (09:34.843)

Yeah, because it's within it's within the I feel like it's within the why that we feel like, okay, if I understand myself more, if I find answers, if I have realizations, that is what's gonna be the unlock for me. And when I feel better about those answers, it almost creates like self-love as a byproduct. And it's like, okay, don't make it a byproduct, just focus on that, make that the

Kamal (09:57.356)

Yeah, look, it's a trap we all fall into. It's the new chur the nature of the mind is it wants to just gnaw at things. Right? It it's literally it it's it's actually more primitive than we give it, you know, than we think. It wants to just gnaw at something. And that lets it n the why lets it gnaw at something. But that's not where the solution is. The solution is how do I fix it? How do I put myself out of fi you know, how do I like put out the fire? Now, you can go the other way and end up there. It's just longer.

And you may not end up there, you end up in other places. Like, look, realizations do help. I've had many realizations in my life, but they've c they're that come through like when I was really looking out for myself. Right? They just come as a natural byproduct and then they just move you further. Right? But if all you do is like go like I you I've met people that like, I'm doing this work and I'm doing that work and I'm doing shadow work and I'm doing this work and I'm like, you know, it's almost like

You kinda get addicted into solving this, okay. Let me find the next piece of the puzzle, let me find the next piece of the puzzle, let me find the next piece of the puzzle. And it's very, it's it's very addicting. It's very like, you know, because you feel like you're making progress, but in the end, how's your mind? Are you f walking around with full-blown, like amazingness for yourself or not? If you're not, then why not just go for something that does that? And the other things will kind of like start to resolve themselves from there, if that makes sense.

Tim Doyle (11:16.42)

Yeah, there's a big difference between I think going into ourselves and tapping into ourselves and almost creating a maze within ourselves. And I feel like it becomes very easy to get lost in that maze.

Kamal (11:29.291)

And you know, I I'll be I'll be honest. Like, look, I'm gonna s I'm not a self-help guy. Look, I've I've been in the military, I've climbed mountains, I've built startups, I invest in startups, I'm a doer, right? I shoot guns, I ride around, like go hiking in the desert. You know, d like I I am not what you'd expect to be a s I never expected to write a self help book that ended up doing so well. I wrote one man's experience and I'm not a fan of a lot of modern self-help because it I think it's designed

to just keep you in the loop so they can sell you more courses and conferences and upsell you on coaching and then masterminds and all this. And in the end, you're no better off. Except it's just it's it's a like a excuse, it's a circle jerk. Like most my like modern self-help is a circle. Like you look at, you know, the ones I admire the ones from like the nineteen twenties, the New Thought Movement that happened, you know, like you got the Neville Goddards, you had so forth who were just discovering the secret to life and just sharing.

Right. And then obviously the mystics throughout history, like in every culture. but modern self-help is just like, I mean, I met a lot of these people, and they are not people you would you wouldn't want to be in their minds. You know, the this it's personas. Right. So in the end, rather than do all these co you I've been out for so many times just the book talk off, you know, we'll help you set up a coaching program, we'll do have you had a seminars. I'm like, no, just read the book. It's in there. I literally wrote the manual on how to love yourself, right? And

And I think a lot of self-help just keeps you stuck in, okay, I'll read that next book and that book's bill change my life. My my thing is, if you read a book a month later, are you much better for it? A year later, much better for it. If not, that book was a failure. Okay? It was just at pure entertainment. You might as well just go on Instagram reading reels and just waste your time that way. Like really, it the the truth is simple. The truth is so simple. It's like most people almost wanna don't believe the simplicity of it.

You know, I used to get that feedback when the book first came out. This is too simple. I'm like, well, try it. You got nothing to lose. You know, except your misery. You know, like but the truth is simple and the truth just requires you and no one can do this work for you. You gotta do it yourself. That's the key. But that's why it's it's a practice. But like, you know, after this, I haven't worked out today, I'm gonna go work out. Yeah, that's my practice.

Kamal (13:45.099)

Right, same thing. Inner work, I do my morning practice. You know, I'll be outside, I'll be walking, and I'll be do those medit you know, those those meditations like every day, every day, just like I'm working on my body, I'm working on my mind. That's really what this is. You work on your mind. Like the whole Love Yourself book in some ways is a Trojan horse to freeing your mind. And you're realizing, like, look, I don't the pattern, the thoughts in my head are just patterns. And I can change those patterns to ones that serve me. And now imagine when those patterns are running.

how you would feel, how you make choices, you know, like and yeah, anyway, I gotta went off on a tangent, but I'm not a fan of modern self help, man.

Tim Doyle (14:27.92)

Diving deeper into the how behind this, how did F you money or a lack thereof really create the spark for all this for you on self love?

Kamal (14:40.64)

Well, I don't have FU money. I mean I do well, but I don't know what I I mean look, I was in Silicon Val yeah, my my career was in Silicon Valley, right? Building startups and so like I was you always dream of like making FU money and you go for it. But everyone around you see people around you making it so easily, right? And people who are no smarter or better than you. Right? It's just like that luck of the draw that company worked out, that one did. Now there are some people who are way smarter and better than you, and they deserve it.

Tim Doyle (14:44.515)

The lack of FU money.

From your from your company.

Kamal (15:10.24)

Like I've met people, I'm like, you're way smarter than I will ever be. Like I I wish you the best, right? But you kinda get caught up in that trap. Like I gotta do it. That's but that's when I'm gonna be successful. Right? That's when I'm gonna be that's how I'm gonna be wort I mean to put it a larger word better word, worthy. Like, you know, like I that's when I'll have made it. That's when I'll have the respect. That's when I like all that. It's so not true. I mean, you get some, but it's not real. Like you if you have a lot of money and the adoration you get from that, that's not real.

That's not for you. Right? That's I mean, there's a lot of dudes with with private yachts. I would say I rec I respect any of them. Right. Yeah, the the c I forgot it's funny I'd forgotten about that, but I wrote about it in book 'cause at that time I was going for that and it blew up and I felt like I'd failed completely and I'd lost it and blah, blah, blah. You know?

Tim Doyle (16:03.814)

Well, the funny thing is, you know, you always hear the term, you know, money doesn't buy happiness. And it seems like the opposite was the true for you was true for you as well. You lost all your money and it leads you down this po path of self love where you you write this vow down on paper. This day I vow to myself to love myself, to treat myself as someone I love truly and deeply.

Kamal (16:20.086)

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (16:31.278)

In my thoughts, my actions, the choices I make, the experiences I have, each moment I'm conscious, I make the decision I love myself. And so this arises within you, and you've shared in the past, like I didn't know what loving myself meant, but this is just what came out of me and onto the paper. And so within the world, like you've largely become known for your book and this topic of self-love. Does this feel like your intellectual property to a degree or

Kamal (16:46.838)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Doyle (17:00.614)

Do you feel like more of like a conduit and a messenger for this deeper message?

Kamal (17:05.568)

I look, I'm not the first person to discover love themselves. I just figured I have one particular way to and it was a very human way and I shared it so it works with others. some people are lucky that they do love themselves. They don't need this book. I met the you know, and and I like like I mean it's awesome. You know, they had the right upbringing and and the and the circumstances in life that just made them that way. Right? But I don't think most of us do. You know. intellectual property, I mean the book is intellectual property because the way I shared it and wrote it, but look, man, I don't

It's like who I don't own love. I don't own self self-love. You know. I yeah, I'm literally a guy who works in himself very hard. And that's all I did and I shared what worked. and actually I respect that about myself because it was fundamentally a pure experience that I was sharing. but yeah, I don't think self-love is my intellectual property. That would be hilarious.

Tim Doyle (18:01.189)

Copyright love.

Kamal (18:04.043)

Trademarket, you gotta give me a dime every time you love yourself. No, I'll tell you, man, dude, like, look, money doesn't buy you happiness, but I'll tell you, I drive a very fun car. And every time I drive it, it brings me joy. And it makes me joy. So money doesn't buy you happiness, it buys you joy. That's my line. But look, you can be miserable and driving a fun car, right? I I honestly I think it brings me joy. That car brings me joy.

Tim Doyle (18:16.601)

Makes you happy.

Kamal (18:33.173)

But also like I'm a person who enjo who expresses joy these days. So it's a joke, you know, money doesn't bring you happiness, money brings you joy. but you're very right in pointing out never thought of that way. Like it's when I lost all my money was when I when I when I've you know was like sh worked on myself and actually found happin real real happiness. And you know the funny thing is, it's not like I I had it was a moment in nirvana and I awakened and I was always happy and I was always loving myself. I really there I went through ups and downs.

And I share that in my book, you know, which is actually another thing I don't like about modern self-help because the everyone who writes this stuff makes them out to be the perfect guru. Right? Like I really don't respect anyone who does that because I you're a human being. Trust me, I know you're not perfect. Right? Share with me the real path. And so that's a that's one thing I was very cu very in fact, I shared stuff, man, which is very embarrassing that about my mind, like I was thinking, what I was feeling. Like I don't need the world to know.

like the shit show I was in my head, right? And here I'm sharing it like with everyone. And my friends have read it. My my sister-in-law's read it. Like, like, you know, but it was because I want people to understand you're not alone. Right? This guy figured it out, but look at his ups and downs because he wasn't applying it. It's like, hey, I figured out how to like work, you know, I went to the gym and I worked out and I, you know, for six months like crazy got in great shape. But then I just didn't if you stop doing it, then I'm complaining

Than any surprise when I get out of shape, right? Same thing with the mind. And it's one thing to tell people, but you know, writing a show don't tell. So I have to show it, right? And that's actually thing I think very important for people to understand. It's not like I I didn't wake up and it was just like boom, done. I'm the Buddha of love, right? Like it's it's like it was just a practice to make myself a better human being. You know, a better and and fundamentally a better human being for myself.

Because in the end, this is the this head, this is all we got. This we're stuck in this. From the moment we were born to the moment we die, we are alone in that head. And that head, you could be in the best situations in life, you'd be miserable. You could be in the worst situations in life, you'd be fine. It's the head. It's inside. Sorry, the mind. I'm saying the head, but it should be the mind. It's the most important thing to work on. It runs the show. You know, so I think, yeah, anyway, I'll stop. I I think I was just repeating myself.

Tim Doyle (21:02.093)

I think what's also really fascinating about your relationship with writing, you know, going, you know, mirroring that guru side of things, like you're a real student of the craft and you've shared that you would study a lot of the great authors and the way that they've written. What has the impact of that been on not just you as a person, but also specifically your writing?

Kamal (21:17.163)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kamal (21:26.229)

Well look, vr you know, writing is the hardest thing I've ever done because it's you and the blank page. And you always come back to it's you and the blank page. Right? And there is no fudging, there is no telling the reader, hey, what I really meant to say was this, you know. And and actually true writing is really hard. Because you gotta write it simple. You gotta use simple words to f to share complex topics because what you wanna do is you might not make the person feel inside.

If you use a big word, it's easy to do that. But then there's many interpretations of it. And and versus you if you simply tell something and make someone feel, that's the real work. And so that's what I realized like when I first started writing. Like I was writing like steaming steaming piles of excrement. Like Herman Hemingway said, you the first draft star of a steaming pile of excrement. And this is Hemingway, you know, the master, the one who actually created modern American writing. I would say modern writing, right? Clean, simple, pure spirit.

prose that just like was powerful. And and so I realized I had to learn to write that way. That doesn't come naturally. So I spent a lot of time writing, rewriting, rewriting, studying, re reading Hemingway's books, like underlining like how he did, where he did the commas, where he did the period, how do you make a sentence run run long versus short to create a feeling? You know, then Hemingway then and everyone from Hemingway to Maya Angelou, you who's like the opposite of Hemingway, right? But like, but you know, like learn from all of them.

And you absorb that and then in the end you come up with your own style. And I'm really yeah, I was obsessed as a student of the craft. I was really obsessed. I wanted to be what I write, like someone can re pick up a book a hundred years later and easily read it, understand it, and actually be better for it. And it's I think it's you know, it's because I've studied the greats.

Tim Doyle (23:20.175)

That focus on simple is really fascinating and it's clear to see within your writing. And I feel like not just the writing, but just the way that it's formatted as well. And so when you put out that first edition, it clearly comes across as simple. But the the result of that or the impact and how people relate to it, you also have a realization, and correct me if I'm wrong, if you had this before.

beforehand or you know after it comes out, but people start, you know, sending you so many questions, you know, asking for more, asking for more insights. And you realize like, I I held back here. So when it came to revising your book and putting out that second edition, how much did those questions kind of inform, you know, what you crafted for that second version versus

You still just following, you know, your internal compass.

Kamal (24:23.098)

if it wasn't for all those questions, I wouldn't have written a second edition. You know, 'cause after a while you see a patterns in the questions and you're answering you realize these are the key questions that themes that keep coming up that I didn't cover. So I didn't I Well, for one thing, literally like like a s almost like lay out a step-by-step manual. Like which I had alluded to it, but I didn't actually do it. So the second one, I'm like, here's okay, I'm gonna make a step-by-step manual. Right? And then

Tim Doyle (24:27.298)

Mm, interesting.

Tim Doyle (24:37.071)

What were those key themes and patterns?

Kamal (24:52.65)

So here's where I really originally when I was gonna write the second version, I was gonna do something like almost like pick the cushions and answer them kind of like they'd Eckhart Tolli in Power of Now. Like he just answers questions, right? That's what I was gonna do. But I realized for me that would be lazy. It's very easy to do that, but it would be lazy writing. and I didn't want to be lazy. I wanted true, I wanted to be effective. So what I did was I had all those cushions. So I'm gonna say, let me write.

them in such a way that they all get answered. But I'm still I'm effective. So hence I wrote the manual in such a way. And hence I wrote the part three, which answers pretty much every question someone sent me, but but by showing you what happens in my head when I go through this process. You know, because it is internal work. So let me show you internally what happens if I'm going through a hard time. so I answered them without ever actually putting the question out. And you know, honestly I don't get any questions anymore.

You know, I really worked very, very hard. I mean, the book is like the expanded version is like two thirds longer. You know, I basically wrote, you know, it's still a re not a crazy long book, but it's like two thirds longer than the original because my goal with this was by the time you're done, you you know exactly how to you you've been sold on it, you know exactly how to do, and you know the pitfalls to watch out for, so you won't you won't screw up like I did.

And boom, you're after the race you're already by the I bet you by the time you're done reading the book, you're already doing some of it yourself.

Tim Doyle (26:27.927)

It's interesting. I feel like there's always a focus of okay, new ideas, new books, new crafts. I gotta come up with something new. When in actuality, and obviously within your case and your experience, what can be more impactful is okay, is there more to uncover here? You know, am I better off actually revising what I've done from the past?

Kamal (26:47.348)

Look, this book stands on its own. I don't need to write another book about loving yourself. I mean, but I you know, the thing is as you go down the process of working on yourself, you discover more and more and more, more deeper stuff. If I was to write a book again on this stuff, it'd be very different and very deep. on on nature of reality itself. You know, that's where I would go. But this what doing this work took me there. And that's the thing, when you work on yourself, it's it's a rabbit hole.

It just doesn't get there and you're you're you're the man or you're the woman. No, no, it's deeper and deeper and all you're doing is discovering yourself and then just your relationship to life itself and existence self. It's it's amazing. I think it's a it's like a fundamental human thing if one you know, like, we all have that capacity. There's many ways to get to it. This is how I'm getting

Tim Doyle (27:40.869)

Tapping into that depth, how does self-love, you think, start in our unconscious mind and then become present in our conscious mind?

Kamal (27:53.589)

don't know. I don't care. I just care about loving myself. Honestly. Does that make sense? Like I I I yeah, I have no idea how my body works, but I want to be in great shape. I don't wanna I have no idea of a cell biology like I the Krebs cycle here and there, but I d you know, I just want to be in great shape.

Tim Doyle (28:03.023)

I love it.

Tim Doyle (28:17.421)

I respect it. I respect the I respect I respect when anybody when when anyone can tell me, I don't know, when I ask them a question. I guess the reason why I was asking is because I do feel like there can be some separation. you know, there there's not a direct correlation between you starting to do something and seeing the positive results, but you know, there is a deeper layer that I think you know, you can start loving yourself in unconscious ways and then it arises where you can see it consciously.

Do you see self love, and I know it's not completely one or the other, but do you see self love as being more of a removal of what doesn't serve us, or is it more of a changing our persp changing our perception of what's already there within us?

Kamal (29:12.938)

You ask good questions. I think for me it was literally not even changing anything, not even removing anything, just focusing on that thing. I just focused on loving myself. I didn't try to remove anything. I didn't try to change anything. I didn't care about anything else. I just cared about that. And so that's what I worked on. And I think that for me was a secret. Was like you foc you take that one thing and you make it your mental pattern.

Forget all the other stuff. Forget like trying to change the other if you get lost in changing other stuff, it's gonna be a whack-a-mole game the in t your entire life. The mind's a you know, mine's a monkey. You know, it's it it needs to grab onto things and just it's always grabbing onto something and it's running on old patterns. You know, and it's also like it's a survival mechanism, running old p running running on what it knows. Well, you're basically adding in new software, right? You're adding in new lines of code and you gotta do that purposely.

So I I don't I didn't honestly didn't care about anything else. The rest comes as a as a result. That's this that's the key. That's why this is so simple. The rest comes as a result. You just focus on this one thing. And look, I'll tell you, like, as a result, yes, I remove I am actually I have very clear boundaries I wish I'd had you years ago. I have very clear boundaries because it's like I was telling that that woman, the first slap is is the last slap.

Right. That's you love yourself, that's the that's a hell of a boundary. No excuse, no nothing. If you've did it once, you're bound to do again. Some point in time, you're you're gone. Right? Well, so it's like that, you know, but that happens when you and you feel when you love yourself and you you feel like like look, I'm better I deserve better than this. You know, if you love yourself, you'll naturally think that. And you'll naturally say no, you will naturally remove things that are not good for you.

I don't think you have to train yourself. You naturally will. It's it comes from identity. You're changing your identity as someone who loves themselves, deserve, know they deserve the best. So when someone gives you less than that, you're like, okay, you're not the one. Bye. You know, I deserve the best. That comes from loving yourself. That doesn't come from me like, you know what I mean, doing all these other things. That's just like a natural byproduct. So that's why I'm a big believer in like rather than trying to do all this other stuff, just pick that one thing.

Kamal (31:33.865)

You know, for me it was loving yourself. I don't care. Pick something, but just focus on that and make that your core thing. And watch your life change. First your mind will change. And then because your mind will change, your life will change.

Tim Doyle (31:47.127)

It goes back to that focus on the how, you know, how do I love myself? And then everything just builds off of that. To give you to give you an example of something that you've shared about that you did release from yourselves, the regret of not going to med school when you

Kamal (31:53.403)

Then just just execute. Yeah.

Kamal (32:04.996)

that was so long ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim Doyle (32:07.234)

When you do release that regret, have there been you know, what do you think is made what do you think that made space for in your life?

Kamal (32:18.239)

look, I mean that's the forgiveness exercise. That's actually, you know, something I I hadn't shown in the original one that I shared in the in the updated version. that forgiveness exercise is powerful. Everyone I know who's done it, people have emailed me, they're like, my god, that changed things. Because it's like literally like the whole point is, okay, I'm setting you off on a journey to love yourself. Okay. So before we set off on this new journey, you gotta let go the weight of your what you're carrying behind, you know, with the weight of what you're carrying.

So you can now start this new journey. So we're gonna do this by this self-forgiveness exercise. It's a beautiful, simple exercise. I've done it many times in my life and it works. What it does is just kind of you're lighter. You leave behind the the the load of what you're carrying. And we all pick up more and more and more and then we just it's a very human thing, right? And for g if you love yourself, of course you'll forgive yourself. And even if you don't love yourself yet, I make you start with forgiving yourself because then the loving yourself becomes easier.

And that exercise works beautifully, man. Like I remember when I came up with it, like I did it for a girlfriend at the time, right? And then she was like the wise and the wise one who's like, well, you need to do it too. I was like, for what? I'm good. And she's like, no, not for this. You know, like and and she was absolutely right. And so when I did, it really was. I never had an issue with it ever again. And it led me on to just accept that I was born, I was made for, you know, my career was gonna be Silicon Valley. I'm gonna and I'm gonna enjoy it. I'm not gonna feel guilt about it.

And so I didn't. It live there, it freed me.

Tim Doyle (33:50.251)

Love is obviously the North Star for you and the anchor for your your writing and everything that you share with.

Kamal (33:58.654)

Actually love is not the North Star for me. For me, it's like I've gone deeper. It's more like what is this whole show about and how can be in the I can be the best expression in this show of myself. And love is the way I I I that got me here. And it's a fundamental part. But I don't even know if it's a north star anymore. It just is. It's it's just a part of me.

Tim Doyle (34:23.972)

I guess to ask that, what is the whole show about to you?

Kamal (34:28.467)

Well, that's a wait for the n I mean, I'll have to write that down. But like look, man, I've almost died very horribly in twenty nineteen. came closer than most ever will. it you think about things and you experience things and it kinda just shows you this whole thing is in my experience this whole this is what I would bet on. what I have bet on at times. This whole thing is just consciousness experiencing itself. We're all fundamental just

parts of that consciousness, connected to to all. you can call it God, you can call it whatever. That's just the way I look at it. This whole the whole thing is this consciousness.

Tim Doyle (35:10.082)

Another word that another word that you use a lot and I think it builds off of that. What does magic mean to you?

Kamal (35:10.083)

And we are just expressing.

Kamal (35:18.501)

magic is what I discovered when I started loving myself and I re all of a sudden life around me started to shift in a way that I wasn't like things just started to work in a way that you start to notice patterns and synchronicities. And this is what a lot of readers have actually reached out to me. Okay, I get it now. I get the magic. Life just starts to work. And here's what I learned. Like that's why like that I mean the whole thing is consciousness. So if the whole thing is consciousness and your piece of that consciousness expressing certain way, the rest of the consciousness is gonna respond to it.

Whatever whatever the whole show is, right? This is just the now now I'm just riffing. But that's that's magic. Magic is when light you love you things are working great inside your inside yourself and you notice the life around you almost starts to shift. Like w gets a little wavy. You know, like I've literally come to experience that. And that's what I believe now. Like this whole thing is just like it's it's

So the I think almost like I have a duty to myself to work on my inner self because the more I do, the more I get to get closer. I feel more like this whole show. Yeah, magic is but magic is when you work on your inside, the outside shifts. That's what magic is.

Tim Doyle (36:32.736)

Mm. Hundred percent.

Kamal (36:34.201)

Also it just starts to work. Life just starts to work. It's it's you'll notice it. Anyone who does it, you start doing it for a little while, you'll notice it. At first I was just like, Man, it's a lot of synchronicities happening. To the point, like, I'll have days with many of Like it once, like you can't explain them. Like I'd be like, yeah, of course. yeah, of course, yeah, of course. Right? It just becomes part of your life. Whereas before it happened once, you would have thought about it for days, you would have noticed it. It's just like you're like, it's like it's almost like

You know, when I felt first discovered, it was like almost like life was like, Finally, you idiot, let me show you on the right path. That literally that's literally what it felt like. Like I was being smacked around a little bit, okay, let me show you some sense, right? but I've come to believe that that's just the the outer experience fundamentally is a reflection of the inner experience. So if that is the case, then why wouldn't you do everything to make the inner experience the best you can? You want a great life?

You want joy, you want happiness, you want success, you want wealth, you want whatever, work in the inner self. Obviously you gotta you you know, you don't do it staying in bed all day. Like you gotta do stuff, but like your your inner self driving that will create magic. I promise you that. Like I at least from my experience and then other people have reached out to me, it's been transformative. I could never go back. If I do, if I fall, I will get up and I will go back because I know that what I know what works.

Tim Doyle (38:00.74)

I think what's so impactful about your writing and going back to the theme of making complex ideas simple, I feel like when you see a word within your writing come up more than once, it stands out to you more and you connect these dots within it and you're like, Okay, there's a theme building here. Like it's there he's obviously using this word specifically over and over because it's important. That's what I picked up on with magic. And to mirror this

understanding of magic, I another word that you use and it goes to your own experience as well. You talk about you would have periods of coasting. How can coasting or assuming that you are loving yourself actually be more dangerous than self hatred or self loathing? Because I feel like self hatred is a part, it's that launching pad to loving yourself.

Kamal (38:55.016)

Well, not necessarily. You can you spend your entire life hating yourself. Plenty of people have in human history. All for their you know, all their lives. Doesn't mean that they're gonna it's gonna cause them to love themselves. first of all, that's very observant of you, the way I use words. I'm impressed. coasting was basically when you got lazy. Like I you know, like when I got like, okay, I got this down, I'm loving myself all good. And I got lazy and I stopped doing the practice.

Just like I stopped going if you I it's like, hey, I got I worked out, I got hell I got in great shape, and I stopped going to the gym and I ate bonbons all day. You know, like like what do you think is gonna happen? Same thing happens to the mind, but faster. The mind is more malleable because we have all these old patterns that we reinforce day in, day out, and so many permutations. You know, it's like same emotion, different scene, right?

But you look back at the patterns of the thoughts. They've and even it's it's actually very interesting. Like if you just sit around for a day and just out of curiosity, watch the thoughts in your head. You don't don't change them, just watch the thoughts in your head. And you'll just realize, my God, this is embarrassing. At best, this is embarrassing. At worst, this is like this is scary. Okay. And then like that that's a great

That's a great thing to do because you know, during that time, I I mean what got me to there was because I was miserable in my head. I was observing my head, what was going on. I was just miserable. Like I didn't want to be in my head anymore. I was sick of my head, but you can't escape from your head unless, you know, life ends. Right? or you know, which is I assume why a lot of people do get addicted to addicted. You're escaping from your head, especially to hard drugs. You know, you it takes you out. Right? but that creates its own host of

worse problems. so it's it was all about I just wanna get out of my head. I wanted to but I couldn't. I'm stuck in my head, so I gotta make it a better place to be.

Tim Doyle (40:54.83)

Further exploring this path of the repetition of words or phrases. A phrase that I picked up on within your writing that you used a few times was I had to save myself. And obviously, you know, the key phrase that you use is I love myself. What do you see as the difference between the two there?

Kamal (41:13.972)

well I have to save myself maybe because look, I didn't I was in a bad state in my head, so that's that's save yourself from that. I mean, literally a if if you're walking around miserable, you're on fire.

Yeah, you're mentally on fire. Save yourself. It's not looking that way, right? We're just so used to walking around and all be it'd be fine. But if we just observe yourself for like 12 hours, you will just see the fire. And you know the thing is it's up to you. The fire is created by you. It's all you. There's no one outside making that fire. Like people can do things that'll cost you to react, but in the end, like your mind's stuck on it.

And you know, mine does it all the time. Like it's it's like I said, I didn't wake up, you know, like I I'm not awakened in any way whatsoever. I'm a human being who's just trying to work in himself and just like put out the fire and change change the pattern so you don't have these fires or less of them. And just do it for just do it for your peace of mind. I love my peace of mind.

Tim Doyle (42:24.036)

I feel like what we usually hear is, just because it worked for you doesn't mean that it'll work for me. But you share, you write the opposite, you share. Everything will be from my experience. And since we're both human, what worked for me will work for you. What gave you that confidence or the belief that this could work across the board for people?

Kamal (42:49.48)

You know, I saw My Angelus speak years ago, and she said something that I never forgot, and this was a long time ago. And she said thousands of years go thousands of years ago, a Roman poet wrote, I'm a human being, therefore nothing human is foreign to me. And that so stuck with me, because we can read Shakespeare written in a very different era, you know, and still feel. Right.

Still feel and Shakespeare is all about human emotions. Right? That's what he does. He he goes for the extremes in human emotions. but but yeah, because this was inner work. We're all in the we all have the human the mind. This is no different than somewhere in the twelve hundreds. The mind is still the same. There's different scenery. S emotions are emotions, man. Like neuroplasticity is neuroplasticity. Like you could you can go into phys you physiology of this, but I don't want to.

Because then you know I see some self-well people go into that and it's just gobbledygook like trying to like impress you with their intelligence, but it doesn't hey, help me change this. Right? yeah, it's it's you know, I because I didn't just write the I wrote the book grudgingly. I didn't want to write that book. You know, as I've spoken many times. I that is not the book I wanted to write. I didn't want to be like I thought I was gonna be laughed out of Silicon Valley, you know, being written out backwards on a donkey.

You know. and it's w I shared what I was doing with people once I got you know, once I figured it out and c and I was loving myself, I shared it with friends and it all of a sudden changed things for them. So it was like, okay, it's like working for them too. So there was a little bit of A B testing, but without any desire to write a book, I was just sharing with friends. I'm like, Hey, I gotta figure it I figured it out. Let me share it with you. You know? but now after having seen all the comments and the emails and the

whatever all the inform everything I get from readers, it is a very human thing. And also, love, more than anything, is a fundamental human thing. We all have felt love, we all desire it, we all need it. Right? Love is the is the fundamental wiring in a human being. Babies have it, as you can see. So we come out, but the moment we come out, we have it. Right? We feel it. and

Kamal (45:11.599)

So that I know will work for everyone because all I'm doing is I'm making you returning to love yourself. Which has always been in you all along, you just, you know, running all these other patterns. So like it's almost like you gotta run this pattern which feels new, feels foreign, but was your fundamental pattern in the beginning anyway.

Tim Doyle (45:32.088)

Would love to dive deeper into that work. I mean, what is the manual behind loving yourself?

Kamal (45:39.879)

You mean the manual in the book?

Tim Doyle (45:41.795)

Yeah.

Kamal (45:43.206)

I mean it's in the book. You know, wrote it like I mean, I wrote it in depth for a reason. Because in there I bypassed all the I answered all the questions that when someone's doing it, they will have. Like, hey, this is how I'm feeling, like my mind's fighting against it, whatever, you know. I mean, it was actually it's simple, but to to to to write it was not because I wanted no more questions, right? I wanted to like over

Just really describing some way if you do it and here's all the pitfalls that you may come across in your mind and here's how to overcome them. Because so yeah, man, that's in the book. You know, I'm not gonna I'm not I'm not gonna I'm I no, I mean it's like I'm not trying to sell a copy, but it's like I don't want to sit there and like read you like the s one half of the book. You know, it w

Tim Doyle (46:21.454)

Pick a pick up a copy, everyone.

Tim Doyle (46:26.774)

No, I understand.

Tim Doyle (46:31.31)

What I am interested to learn more about so this was all experimentation and exploratory for you, and you almost like you know, just creating this on your own.

Kamal (46:44.955)

I was I was I was saving myself. I was in a bad place. And I was sick and tired of being in my head. Mm-hmm.

Tim Doyle (46:50.766)

Did this also did it also create self confidence? And I guess the question on top of that as well is what do you see as the difference between self confidence and self love?

Kamal (47:02.727)

I mean self-love definitely increases your self-confidence. What people would call as some confidence.

I think self-confidence actually is thinking holly yourself. A lot of it is just n you know what it is? It's knowing yourself. And you know who you are and you just like, I'm good. I mean, look, I work on myself, I know my faults, but I'm good. That's self-confidence. I would say I have a good sense of self-confidence. A lot of it actually, you know, but the foundation is self-love. Because you can have self-confidence and not and self-hate, and it's a shitty one.

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (47:43.8)

Do you know who Corey Allen is?

Kamal (47:47.655)

I know the name. Who's that?

Tim Doyle (47:49.935)

He's a guy that I had on my podcast last week, and when he got into meditation, he said that his self-confidence was at an all-time high, but his self-worth was still at an all-time

Kamal (48:06.311)

Hm, yeah, that's yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that. I've seen that. And wouldn't wish that.

Tim Doyle (48:15.842)

Yeah, it's that that's a fascinating place to live within that friction g

Kamal (48:21.083)

The thing is if your self worth was high, your self confidence will not be low.

Start with the fundamentals, start with the basic core human things. You know? And a lot of self-confidence. What we what we think is self-confidence in modern society isn't that even necessarily self-confidence, like bravado or boo ha ha. Like real sound self-confidence is just like it's quiet. The best men I know are also the most dangerous men I know. You know, they they're like they have they have that confidence, right? They're not they they just

Tim Doyle (48:43.972)

Quiet.

Kamal (48:56.375)

are that way. yeah. but yeah, I would not choose that. I would choose like start with the most fundamental thing, the self love, self worth. In fact, before I worked in self worth, I would work on self love. Because self love will lead to self worth. We're wired for love. Worth? Are we wired for it? I don't know. I think that's something in society that we need. Would you need self worth if you were by yourself in an island and had to survive all for the rest of your life?

Would it matter?

Tim Doyle (49:27.416)

Yeah, because I think a key thing is when we put the focus on self worth or self confidence or our external identity, and that's what we're pushing forward for. I think and I feel like I've felt this within my life at times, you know, whatever the work is that we're doing

you have to get to a point or you become more aware of like, am I doing this to fill some type of void within my life? Or am I using it as a coping mechanism? And what the void is that you're trying to fill is okay, my my self worth is at a low because I'm just focusing on that self confidence.

Kamal (50:06.544)

I don't know if it's because you focus on self confidence, but what I will tell you is work on the deeper, the fundamental human thing, and the rest will just come through the you know, rather rather than doing like it's like me saying in workouts, like do I'm saying like look you're like, hey, I wanna be in great shape, but all I'm doing is bicep curls every day. Right? I'm saying go do pull ups. Right? Your biceps are g you're gonna be better shape and you're gonna have great biceps. So like go for the fundamental human thing. Go for the basics.

Tim Doyle (50:30.243)

Ha ha.

Kamal (50:37.146)

The the stuff that we that we need society to almost validate for it to work is is almost like doing the bicep curls. Whereas self love, self worth, I mean not even self worth, self love is fundamental like you're doing full body squats and pull ups and everything, right? Like it is the fundamental foundation.

Tim Doyle (50:58.104)

When you first started doing this work, you described it in your book as running clinical trials in your head. How quickly would you either scrap or go deeper into an experiment based off of how you were feeling?

Kamal (51:11.76)

I was literally doing this to make myself feel better about myself, right? And also to keep the wow I s I wrote down and I didn't know how to do that wow, so I was just trying things in my head. And I was stuck in my head, I had nothing to lose. So I w it didn't matter. I was doing it I would throw anything out that wasn't working. Like I wasn't vetted to it because I was feeling miserable. Right? So whatever helped me feel better internally, I went deeper and deeper in it. So I

It wasn't even rhyme or reason. It was just how did how was I feeling? Did I feel like it was starting to work and make a difference? I didn't expect it to work like the what to work as much as fantastically as it can as it worked out. I was just doing it because I made a vow and I was miserable. So I had nothing else to do in my head. Right? I was just doing it like try to get out of that misery.

And I did.

Tim Doyle (52:04.484)

How can the w how can the word if be an effective tool for self love?

Kamal (52:10.38)

that's a good question. Because there's some questions I ask in situations and if I love that word if because if bypasses the mind saying, like you say, I love myself, and the mind will say, no, you don't. But you say, If I love myself, what would I do? If you're like, you know, if you're like stuck in choices, right? And you or you're like having a hard time making a decision, just ask yourself if I love myself truly and deeply.

Wanting only the very best for myself, like truly love myself with all my heart and soul. What would I do? You know the answer. It's staring in the vein. You don't have to listen to it, but then you'll do it consciously. You'll make the choice consciously. It's a great question. And the the if makes it possible. Because the mind just can't argue against if. You're just asking hypothetically. So that if actually works fantastic.

I have a a lot of people reach out and say that question, just ask some del asking themselves that question at certain points in life has made all the difference.

Tim Doyle (53:11.928)

Yeah, I mean it allows us to detach from ourselves to a degree and

Kamal (53:16.398)

Yeah, we're stuck exactly. That's a great way to put it.

Tim Doyle (53:19.372)

Yeah, it o it almost creates this like future character that we can look at rather than just like being within ourselves.

Kamal (53:27.482)

Yeah, just I mean that if statement, if then statement is so powerful. I mean it's a great one. You're sitting down to eat, you're right, and you're like you're on a you're on a diet and you're like our friends are an ice cream and pizza. If I love myself truly and deeply want only the best for myself, only like the best long term my greatest health, what would I do? You know the answer. And you know, like it's you you like you said, detach us from the moment because we're stuck in the moment.

pulls you back, you you look at from like a almost like an outside perspective, and you know the answer. And that's what helps you make and sometimes you'll still make the choice, but you'll make it consciously, but you do this question again and again, you'll stop doing that. You'll s you'll start live because we're human, we want to be better. We all want to be better. And we basically when we ask ourselves the question, each time we're not doing what we know we we should do, but loving ourselves, we would do if we were loving ourselves. Eventually you will.

Because we that's at the front of the thing, every human being wants to be better. No human being that no matter what there in life doesn't want to be better. Right? So s a lot of this is just like internal stuff like guiding you, pushing you a little bit to be like better and loving towards yourself.

But that's a great question, by the way.

Tim Doyle (54:44.046)

How did I appreciate that? It's something that I feel like has helped me a lot. of just understanding myself almost like in third person, of just di detaching from myself. How did self love go from something that solely you were thinking about in your head to something that you were feeling in your body?

Kamal (55:07.258)

You have to def explain to me what you mean, head versus body.

Tim Doyle (55:11.488)

I guess what was the process like of you just thinking certain things or saying certain things or doing different practices that were just living in your head of just trying to change your mindset versus actually almost like on a physiological difference feeling that shift?

Kamal (55:31.622)

think if you work on your mind you kinda feel in your body. What what do you think runs the body?

Tim Doyle (55:37.986)

You think the mind runs the body? Or I guess I see it in unison. I guess I I see it as mind body unity.

Kamal (55:44.292)

Look, I'm not separating the brain. I'm not separating the brain. I'm just but I'm speaking of mind. I'm thinking of thinking, feeling self. Wherever those receptors are, the receptors are. Right? But the neur the neurons are in the brain that are actually like doing the thinking. Right? Th but there's receptors all over. like I said, that's that gets into more in the in the why. I'm not a scientist, nor don nor do I play one on TV. Like look, I I ha look, I I I

Tim Doyle (56:06.2)

You're not a scientist.

Tim Doyle (56:10.573)

Yeah.

Kamal (56:13.921)

I I do research this stuff myself out of curiosity, but none of it's made me any better. What's made me better is me doing the work. Right? Like I I don't look at look up what is the density of fire hoses that are best to put out a fire. I just can jump in the pool, you know? Like Really. I mean that's just my thing. It's like I just want practicality, man. I don't I don't need all the gobbledygook.

Tim Doyle (56:42.596)

I had Dr. Dan Siegel on my show last summer to talk about the rise of the solo self and how we when understanding ourselves in isolation can lead to a lot of different problems. Obviously at the top of that list is loneliness, you know, when we don't connect with our community and, you know, the larger world, whatever that means to you, whether that's some type of faith or spirit.

Obviously within your work, the key phrase is I love myself. How do you see the phrase life loves you also as an important concept for people to understand?

Kamal (57:22.521)

Yeah, I that's that's one that's one I used to do because sometimes it was me wasn't enough and it was more like making myself feel that I was just loved by existence itself. That feels wonderful. You feel taken care of, you don't worry. And what is it? It's just a pattern, it's just an identity. This piece of identity. Why not give yourself that identity? Why you know, why walk around thinking that things are not gonna work out for you?

You can just as equally work on things things will. And guess what'll happen? You know, especially if you start to go along the lines of as within, so without. If life really is as someone told me a long time ago, very wise, man, life is from the inside out, working the inside. You know? And that's what I did. And I think that's what that's such a human thing. I think everyone should do. You don't have to do my process. You don't have to do my book, but just pick your thing, man. And just just do it. You know, work on your inside and watch.

and marvel as how the inside shifts and then the outside shifts.

Tim Doyle (58:25.358)

What's your relationship with relationships like?

Kamal (58:29.909)

I mean, what kind? Friends, family, lovers, what

Tim Doyle (58:35.886)

I guess I would say all of the above, but I guess specifically

Tim Doyle (58:43.352)

W I guess we can start from the the top down. I mean, what is your relationship with faith look like if you do have one?

Kamal (58:51.791)

Yeah, I mean faith is I told you what I believe. Right? So I that that's what the whole show is, and it's it's incredible, it's beautiful, it's magical. And it's us to tap into the magic by by being being better inside. So it's not like I believe in an ex I yeah, I mean I so that's my faith. I don't I mean faith is an interesting word.

I I trust in the whole thing. In a way I never did before. I trust in it. And so like the trust gives you peace.

Tim Doyle (59:31.97)

like that. Yeah, tr there's definitely trust and faith are very synonymous.

Kamal (59:40.206)

Yeah, that's right. Because like if you have to faith, like what is it? Faith of a faith of a mustard steed you can move that mountain? That means you gotta trust that what you just asked for has been given. Ask and it shall be given. Right? You have to trust. you have to trust in it. And it trust really does give you peace. and trust is a process. but the more you can get there, the fa I mean that's a man, yes, good question. So okay, faith.

What's next? Unless I didn't answer it. Unless I didn't answer the

Tim Doyle (01:00:12.504)

I know the core No, no, no, that that was that that was great. And that that insight between faith and trust was a light bulb moment for me. I know a

Kamal (01:00:22.093)

And for me as well. Yeah.

Tim Doyle (01:00:24.6)

The beauty of podcasting. I know you know, another pillar when it gets into relationships behind this work and this writing for you is romantic relationships. I mean, what is your relationship like with romance?

Kamal (01:00:26.297)

Yeah. Yeah.

Kamal (01:00:40.399)

I mean, I'm a fan of it, you know.

Tim Doyle (01:00:42.561)

Ha ha ha.

Kamal (01:00:45.555)

I live a very private life, so I'll keep quiet about that. but but no complaints.

Tim Doyle (01:00:52.984)

How was that a huge spark, especially for part three of your book and I mean you c

Kamal (01:00:58.297)

Yeah, for someone who writs who lives a private life, you share a lot in your books. What you gotta say?

Tim Doyle (01:01:02.284)

I mean you you could you you could make the case and I'm sure for a lot of people it's the most important part, part three of the book. because I've heard you talk a a lot about before and I'm of the belief, you know, to change the way that somebody thinks, you gotta change the way that they feel. And I feel like the ch the way that you change what somebody feels is through story and personal experience and

Kamal (01:01:27.173)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Doyle (01:01:29.676)

Especially from your case, obviously you're not a guru, but you know, if you're telling somebody, hey, you know, go deep within yourself, if you're saying that within a book, to a large degree, it's like all right, you know, I gotta bleed on the paper a little here to show you I'm part of that contract as well.

Kamal (01:01:48.665)

Yeah, agreed. Agreed. So what's the question?

Tim Doyle (01:01:54.041)

I guess just with part three, especially, you know, romantic relationships, how is that really I guess the spark or, you know, why do you think that was so important for the book?

Kamal (01:02:05.344)

because it was something I'd experienced right before I was working up, right around the time I was working on the new version of the book. And I the entire time I knew something was missing. I'd written I'd part one and part two, but I knew there was something missing. And it was the personal experience. But would I give the personal experience of when I first originally came out of practice? But, you know, that was years ago. And so I didn't remember, I couldn't write it as deeply as as well as.

what I was recently experiencing. And so, trust me, part three, I there were times I was like, I want to cut this out of the book because it was so personal and so bleeding on the page and showing showing. And even the but the Harper Collins when they bought the book, the editor told me, like he's like, he's like, look, when we were in the meeting of of the pitch meeting when they decided he's like, look, I read your book. Part one, he said I read it. I said part one, I really like this guy. Part two,

I really, really like this guy. Part three, I'll follow this man to the end of the earth. And he's like, and that's why he did they've wanted to buy the book and publish the book. He's like that part three is what like really he's like, I asked, you know, he was great. He was like, Look, I asked my authors, I begged them to be do something so per a little bit personal wrong. He said, You did it in ways that just like I've never s had anyone do. And so the relationship part

story was because I had experienced it recently. to tell you the truth. If I had another experience I was going through that that could encapsulate how the practice works, I would have shared that. Honestly, I would rather share something else in the relationship part because it was so embarrassing. You know But you know what? Interesting enough, it worked out perfectly because you have no idea how many people have reached out to me and said I was going through a breakup or I was going through a divorce and this book literally saved me.

Tim Doyle (01:03:44.665)

Yeah.

Kamal (01:03:57.113)

Like if I read that book, that book would have saved me going through it. Like you know, like through a bat through a breakup.

Tim Doyle (01:03:57.156)

Ports.

Tim Doyle (01:04:04.164)

Part three, all the writing there, that came from your journal at the time, correct?

Kamal (01:04:10.274)

Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Doyle (01:04:11.896)

What effect do you think that had where it was just journal entries rather than that being writing that you thought, you know, okay, I'm writing this for the intention of it going into a book?

Kamal (01:04:25.968)

it was more raw, but even my journal entries are good writing. I write. I don't doodle. Even my doodling is writing. Because if you're a craftsman, you're gonna always gonna be criticizing your crafts, right? Like whether you're sketching or drawing the painting to go in the museum, you're gonna you're gonna be always criticizing your craft. So like when I write for myself, it's still I'm still writing. I'm still always practicing my craft. but then keep in mind.

Then I took the journal entries and crafted them into a story, into a piece. Like they weren't like verbatim, right? Then you get then you take the craft. A lot of stuff I cut out. A lot of stuff, you know, like I didn't add anything, but there was a lot I cut out that didn't serve the book, that didn't serve this the what I was trying to get across. then also, you know, sentence structure, rhythm and stuff, of course I changed some to make it, you know, flow the way it did. But yeah, it was raw.

and I think that's what makes it so powerful and so transformative for many people.

I'll tell you one thing, man. In relationships, really loving myself, like my boundaries are way better. And what I'm willing to tolerate or not. That alone is a game changer. And I'm very I'm very loving, I'm very open, but I'm also very clear about my boundaries. and to the point, I I will walk away from someone, not even think twice about it if they violated those boundaries because I've told them. You know, it's like the first slap is the last slap.

It doesn't have to be a slap. Right? But like when you're loving yourself, it's like it's funny, man. People are drawn to you. They are, you know, they feel it. Like I like it's like they just are. Everybody wants to be around someone who's feeling good and and is good. And you know, like no one wants to be around someone who's feeling miserable. Like, I mean, unless you hate yourself and you want more of that, right? But like loving yourself is way like.

Tim Doyle (01:06:33.348)

It's intoxicating.

Kamal (01:06:34.912)

It is. And also you you tolerate less shit from someone. Like looking back at that relationship, like this shit I tolerated, I shouldn't have. I'm better than that. I deserve better. It shouldn't have even gone that far. Got it gone that way. And if it was a r if I was in that this man was in that situation, it would have turned out very differently.

You know, and that that's the power of loving yourself. And really b you know, that what that leads to. And at that point I wasn't. I'd been coasting for a long time. And I was falling back into the old patterns in my head.

Tim Doyle (01:07:07.236)

Within our culture today, or when it comes to emotions, we understand it in pairs or opposites. So, you know, happiness, sadness, you know, excited, scared. You know, and we're talking about love or self love, you would your natural inclination would be to understand the opposite as hatred or self hatred. But I feel like within our culture and society today, the opposite of self love is actually distraction.

And the reason why I think that is because I was alluding to it a little bit earlier, and you know, obviously people can go their entire lives hating themselves. But I think there are also a lot of people where they just get fed up with hating themselves so much that it it spurs that entering into a new arena of okay, let me do the work of loving myself. But I feel like within our culture today, because

Distraction is the opposite because you don't have to feel that hatred. You know, you can numb yourself or you can distract yourself in in other ways. And I feel like a really going to storytelling and, you know, the power of storytelling. Can you share more about the experience? And you talked a little bit about it earlier. Can you share more about the experience of the very scary health issue that you had and the surgery that you had and coming off of

narcotics because you wanted to have a clearer mind for reviewing the proofs of your revised version of your book.

Kamal (01:08:44.302)

What about it do you want me to cover?

Tim Doyle (01:08:47.15)

I guess just the importance of like I was saying

you know, having a clear mind and being willing to take on this pain and not, you know, numbing yourself or not, you know, distracting yourself.

Kamal (01:09:05.144)

I mean look,

You're right, so much of modern life is distracting yourself. And that's a modern luxury. You know, if we didn't ha go a few hundred years back, most of humanity didn't have that luxury. You were just surviving, you know, and trying not to get ripped and pillaged if you go a few hundred years before then. that's a modern luxury, the idle mind, or like with idle mind with idle time and nothing to do, right?

Very few people very few in humanity had that before us. so it's like I and it makes sense, man. Like, look, when I had that sur that botch surgery that almost killed me, and then all the you know the craziness afterwards, and I was on the opioids, I needed them because I was in so much pain. But I at one point

I mean this is also around the time when I I had to I was getting the proofs back and I had to work on them and I couldn't work on them when I was in opioids on the last for the book. And but I just remember at one point like taking the I forget what what they had me on, but I I've I s I noticed my mind center like it. And I was like, shit. That's not good. Because for it'll go from like to need it and then I'm screwed. I'm like

Do I think I'm strong enough that I'm I'm gonna be the first person to not get addicted? You know, like whatever. Like I'm not gonna full I'm not gonna take that chance. So I went off them quicker than I needed to. And it w it sucked. It was awful being in that kind of pain without those, right? I mean, I remember just sitting in my couch and just sweating through the pain. It was this it was would not recommend doing. but I just didn't want to and I realized.

Kamal (01:11:02.567)

The opioids, yeah, they take the pain away, but they do something else. They make you not care about it. You care less about it. And I realized, shit, this explains addiction because if you're not happy with it yourself, if you're not good within yourself, you take this and all of a sudden you don't care. Like I I'm kinda but you know, like or you can get to love yourself but you love yourself and not care, right? Which is where I am. Like I'm a very I don't care about most things attitude.

But yeah, I realized that holy cow, that's that for me anyway, that was like, shit, I can see how this can be so addicting 'cause like if you're not happy with your life, you're watered this, whatever, you just take this and you're not feeling it. And so of course the moment it rubs off and you're back to yourself to that misery, of course you're gonna want more. And hence addiction. it it and it just and it's powerful and and it's it was power it was like

Those things are sitting right there, I'm in pain. I wanna take it, right? And then they just like say no to it. That was really hard. and sometimes I said yes, sometimes I said no, sometimes I took it, right? But I was

Yeah, you know, you're very right. Their distraction is a in modern society, we have the ability to distract ourselves all the way from Instagram reels to, you know, opioids and drugs or whatever, right? You know, Pascal said all of man's and of course he used the word man because given the product of his time, all of man's miseries come and I might be paraphrasing, all of his miseries come from his inability to sit in a quiet room alone by himself.

Kamal (01:12:46.167)

And I think the greatest gift we can give ourselves is actually to be quiet and just let our head be and notice it and see what it does, our mind what it does. And then you realize, okay, this is not this is I this is not as pleasant as I as it should be. So how do I make this pleasant?

Tim Doyle (01:13:07.342)

Paul Ravakant, it's been great talking with you today. Where can people go to learn more about you? Any other thoughts you'd like to share?

Kamal (01:13:17.303)

I'm unusual. I'm on X, I'm on Instagram. I'm pretty lazy on posting on on on the platforms. I sometimes take long breaks away from them, from my mental health. But I always respond to readers. So feel free to reach out to me there. obviously books on Amazon and your your closest bookstore. any closing thoughts? look man, you ask great questions. I'm very impressed.

I would say the main thing is the main thing I've learned is work on your inside. It's it's actually it seems like the hardest thing, but it's very simple. Just work on your upside inside, be obsessed, and then watch your what's your life change. It's that simple.

Tim Doyle (01:14:02.508)

Awesome. Great talking with you today.

Kamal (01:14:05.549)

Great talking to you too, man. Thank you.