#122 - Chris Guillebeau - Time Management Isn't The Problem

Chris Guillebeau introduces a concept I think many of us have experienced but never had language for: time anxiety. We explore why it quietly shapes our choices, why productivity isn't the answer, and how changing our relationship with time can change the way we experience life.

Timestamps:
00:00 "I Don't Have Time"
01:03 How Time Differs Around The World
02:21 Time Anxiety
09:30 How Therapy Impacts Your Relationship With Time
13:08 The Paralysis Of Choice
16:13 Productivity Isn't The Answer
19:39 Using Meditation To Combat Time Anxiety
23:47 Making Changes To Disrupt Your Routine
27:45 How Our Phone Impacts Our Time
30:27 Did I Push The Ball Forward Today?
35:46 Time Management Is A Myth
37:16 Time Feels Different As We Age
39:33 Being Alive vs. Feeling Alive
40:33 The Opposite Of Time Anxiety
42:42 You Should Quit
44:36 Long Term Focused, But Next Step Focused
46:12 Legacy Shouldn't Be Your Focus
49:04 You Still Have Time
50:15 Connect With Chris Guillebeau

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Transcript

Chris Guillebeau introduces a concept I think many of us have experienced but never had language for: time anxiety. We explore why it quietly shapes our choices, why productivity isn't the answer, and how changing our relationship with time can change the way we experience life.

Tim (00:07.66)

I don't have time. Why is that so second nature in the way that we think and talk?

Chris Guillebeau (00:14.102)

I think it is the the ultimate problem. It is the universal problem. It affects us all, no matter how much money you have, no match other resource, you know, like we're all facing a fundamental time shortage, or at least the perception of time shortage, and perception is reality. And I think this affects all of us in lots of different ways. I think it affects us more now than it used to, at least historically speaking, for all kinds of reasons. But

I think in generally if you just want to like break it down, if you ask the average person what's going on in your life, what's stressful, most likely the answer in some way relates to time and the lack of it.

Tim (00:51.31)

feel like within the US, I don't have time is almost like a badge of honor. Like it connotes hard working or the more successful we are. You've traveled to every single country. How do you think people's relationship with time varies throughout the world?

Chris Guillebeau (00:59.992)

Mm-hmm.

Chris Guillebeau (01:06.974)

Mm, great question. I do think like this busyness as a badge of honor, it's not only US. I mean, I think people tend to point to like a more Western, you know, mindset compared to like a more traditional or agrarian mindset. and so it's kind of like the difference between individualistic culture and collective culture and, you know, personal goals versus valuing the community and so on. But I I think

You know, in lots of peop places, people are worried about time. And so that part may not be universal in terms of the application of like what is your specific fear and worry about time, but it it's kind of existential. You know, it's existential in this in the case that like, you know, ultimate ultimately we have a limited amount of time. Life is about choosing, how do we make those choices? So, you know, a family or a person in India may make those choices differently than

Someone in Canada would, but ultimately we all have, you know, a certain amount of time and a certain amount of choice available.

Tim (02:09.345)

To couple time with another word, anxiety, and what you've done a lot of writing on. And I feel like it's kind of funny that we never had the thought of like, yes, we become very anxious about our relationship with time, but not actually never actually use the the terminology to actually understand that, which I feel like is really fascinating. What is your objective understanding of what time anxiety is?

Chris Guillebeau (02:32.737)

My objective understanding. Okay, that's great. well, I would say big picture it is the the fear or the distress of running out of time and or there not being enough time and it can manifest a couple of different ways. it's like there's not enough time in life, like there are things I want to do in life that I'm not going to be able to do or accomplish or achieve. Or

Maybe also I'm like looking back to a certain degree and like I wish I'd done something differently when I was quote unquote younger, like whatever that looks like, or I have some regret, I I wish I'd made a different choice. Either way, it's like there's not enough time in my life. And then there's also like there's not enough time in the day. You know, so maybe even if you have like a good life plan, if you're like, Yeah, I know what I'm supposed to do with my life or what I've chosen to focus on, nevertheless, like in any given day, there's like

an unlimited amount of information and options and this kind of optionality is great in lots of ways. It's like, so cool, we could do anything, right? But that's also overwhelming. And so the the other part of of time anxiety is is how do we somehow triage this and how do we do more of what is important to us? How do we hopefully connect like the short term, the day-to-day with the long term, what we're working towards.

but it's challenging and it therefore it can be distressing.

Tim (03:56.558)

Do you see it as like a pinballing effect going between past, present and future, or do you feel like it's grounded in one more than the other?

Chris Guillebeau (04:05.262)

Pinballing effect. That's an interesting metaphor. I think it's it's definitely like time anxiety affects all three facets of time, past, present, and future. So it's a little bit different than like FOMO, for example, like the fear of missing out. I feel like I'm missing out on something that's happening right now. Like it's very present-tense sort of angst or anxiety, whereas

Time anxiety, like we mentioned, like the past of like I regret something, I wish I had done something different. I'm too late for something in life. which by the way is something people of all ages say, which I think is really that was one of the interesting findings as I did a lot of research. I was like, you imagine that that it's like people in the nursing home or who are like looking back and I'm like, I'm too late in life, but I actually heard that phrase from teenagers, you know, and from like young adults, right? And so it's like that's very interesting. People of all ages feel like, you know, they're too late for something.

So that's the past. but then also the future. It's like, what do I do with my life, right? Like I'm feeling like this pressure to have perfect answers and to know what what my plan is, right? Whether it's like what do I want to be when I grow up or you know, what do I do next? And you know, career goals, relationship goals, life goals, you know, spiritual goals, all the how do these things coexist? But you said pinball.

Tim (05:25.558)

It's funny, I call

Chris Guillebeau (05:26.87)

'Cause like maybe you had maybe you had some more thoughts on that 'cause I thought that was interesting.

Tim (05:30.656)

Yeah, I just feel like the pinball effect of focusing on the past versus focusing on the present versus focusing on the future, like is it all balanced out, or for people it can be like, like, you know, my I've I've made my amends with the past, but the future is really scary. but it's funny, I f I call it like the three year role almost, going to like people saying they're falling behind and but at at any age people are saying that. I feel like at

Twenty four, I was saying, like, man, it feels like I'm falling behind. And then at twenty seven, I was like, Man, at twenty-four, I was young. And so it's like at 30, I'm gonna be like, Man, like 27 felt very, very young. you shared that you've done a lot of research on this. And I'm curious to know, like, how have you gone about balancing the research, objective truth side of things versus, you know, narrative personal experience?

Chris Guillebeau (06:22.574)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's a great question. By the way, how old are you now?

Tim (06:25.953)

I'm twenty seven.

Chris Guillebeau (06:27.374)

Twenty seven now. Okay. All right. Maybe we'll come back to that. so the lived experience versus the research side. Well, I tend to come to things first. I tend to come to like like the books I've written and some of the research I've done. I don't come to it out of just pure objective interest. You know, it's not like what are the trends, you know, or something I I don't care about that. Like for me I tend to come to things personally of like what's going on in my life or what do I see or what's a problem, you know, that

I might be able to like find some solution for you know, what's the unique interest and skill set and all that kind of stuff. So I think for me it was like I came to this first because I was like really stressed out and kind of depressed and and just feeling like unsettled all the time. And I I kind of traced a lot of it to like this uncertainty over over time. And again, it's a little bit different from every other problem. Like it connects to everything.

Like to go back to the pinball thing, like I'm sure these like the dimensions of time are ultimately interconnected. And so I'm sure that like well being in life is also connected. You know, if you're not taking care of yourself, if you're not exercising, if you're not eating well or something, then probably some other parts of your life are not gonna be great. So like there's that whole thing. But I still feel like if you solve everything else, you still have this matter of time. And so I I just started

Doing some more work on it. And the first research was not really like scholarly research. It was much more just talking with people. And you know, people would say, like, what are you what are you working on? And I'd be I'm exploring this concept about time anxiety. And probably more than any other book that I've done, the response was very visceral and very, very much like, I have that. Like I'm anxious about time, but I've never heard that phrase, or wow, that's the thing that affects my whole life.

And so I thought that's interesting. Like there's there's a lot to this. And so then I started digging into it more. And so that's when I kind of flipped from like, okay, there's this intuitive, you know, side, and I want it to be narrative driven, like we learn through stories, of course. but I also need it to be grounded in something. And so that's when I go into more research. And so I did a pretty comprehensive like social science study of lots of different people, surveys, people with different backgrounds, ages, you know, different places in the world.

Chris Guillebeau (08:44.793)

We make su make sure things are kind of balanced. And then I look at like what are the insights from this and how do we to go back to the first part of like, okay, how do we then like bring this back to narrative? because you need to tell a good story. and so hopefully it's like data informed but also like readable, you know, that's the that's the goal.

Tim (09:03.149)

I always find it powerful when people can bring language to something that somebody's felt, but they've never known how to consciously understand it themselves. And I feel like time anxiety is a phrase that can do that for people. Tying things into that relationship between thinking and feeling. And you talk about this in your book, time time anxiety with your relationship with therapy. And on the flip side of that, actually needing to do the opposite where you were.

thinking too much and you didn't know how to actually feel what is your relationship with therapy looked like and how do you think that's related to your relationship with time as well?

Chris Guillebeau (09:35.001)

Yeah.

Chris Guillebeau (09:43.268)

Yeah. Man, when I think I told this story in the book too, but like when I first started going to therapy, I learned a lot in a really short period of time, you know. It's like and I really encourage everybody to have this experience, even if you don't want to like be in therapy for long, you could still like learn so much about yourself. And for me, I I wish I had started it sooner because I got these insights and a lot of the insights was about like learning how to learn. So if we go to like big picture, it's like most people don't learn how to learn. You know, if you want to succeed in college.

you know, it really helps to like learn some study skills, you know, which you aren't really taught. But if you learn that then you have like an advantage, you know. And so therapy like this great life hack, you know, for everything. And so I think I was like, you know, in my like mid thirties, and had s had a bunch of difficult like personal experiences, a death in my family and and just feeling really, you know, depressed and anxious and everything. Finally went to therapy and, you know, within a couple of sessions I'm like

okay. Like I don't have all the answers, quote unquote, but I understand why I am the way I am, or I'm beginning to see like clues, you know, in that. and that is that is very helpful because a lot of what I've been feeling is very frustrated with myself and, you know, why am I this way, or why can't I get past this problem and so on. So just some insights there was helpful. And I think well the story I was alluding to was, I don't remember exactly what what the phrasing was, but

I think in one of my sessions vr early on, therapist was very tactful and she said something like, you know, you have a lot of skills, you're really smart. And of course I knew when she said that, it's like, what's coming next? You know, it's like you have a lot of skills, you're really smart. and and so the and was like, but the skills you have learned or like everything that you have mastered, you know, that has allowed you to like take you this far in life is not going to help you get where you need to go next.

And I was like, well shit, you know, that's that's not great. You know, it's like I but it actually was great because I was like, okay, I need to learn new skills, right? I need to learn new skills. I need to learn a new way of thinking about the world and thinking about myself. And I think you mentioned something about like, you know, thinking and feeling. I was very good at being cerebral and intellectual, and you know, a therapist would ask me, How do you feel about this? And I would immediately be like, Well, here's what I think about this, and here's my analysis about this. And she's like, But how do you feel? and I

Chris Guillebeau (12:05.263)

It's really difficult. It's still difficult for me, but at least now I kind of understand, this is why this is why I am the way I am and I'm trying to get closer to that that felt sense. Does that make any sense?

Tim (12:15.723)

Yeah, it does. I mean, what else what are those other top skills that you feel like you've built?

Chris Guillebeau (12:22.281)

Mm, what are the other top skills that I built? well, we didn't really talk about what the felt sense is, like being able to like identify, you know, how this makes you feel in your body, not just in your head. understanding, I don't know, let's see. Let's see. How do we how do we like, you know, answer the question honestly and in detail will also somewhat stay on topic. you have some really great questions. Nobody's been like, what are the lessons you've learned in therapy? Because like that's like

I gotta I gotta, you know, think about that for a little bit.

Tim (12:56.525)

I mean to d to dive deeper into the feeling component of it, because I think something that's synonymous with time anxiety actually, and it goes to the feeling side of things, is almost like being in a state of paralysis where and it's like grounded in this paralysis of choice and it's grounded in this question of like what should I even be doing? And you talk about this interesting concept, and I've definitely felt it within my own life as well.

You know, you can do anything, but you can't do everything. How have you gone about navigating that within your life?

Chris Guillebeau (13:32.773)

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's hard because I'm a person who wants to do everything. You know, I'm I'm the person who's like, I don't want to be constrained and like I like doing stuff. You know, I'm not trying to be a minimalist. I'm not trying to like simplify my life necessarily. You know, if it feels overly complicated, then sure, right? But I actually want to do more. but I think maybe part of it is just the acceptance of like this base reality of like, okay, like we, as you said, we really

Can't do everything. And maybe some of it is a shift that needs to occur between childhood and and adulthood. Because it is good to encourage kids or or even like young people and teenagers to like dream big and like you dream without limits. You know, it's like it's like any kind of project management. It's helpful to have like a brainstorming phase. There's no wrong questions, no bad ideas, you know. But at a certain point, if you want to

you know, move forward with the project and solidify things and get deliverables and outcomes and all that stuff, then you're gonna have to like eliminate and have constraints and limitations and say, okay, well that's that might be a good idea, but it's kind of irrelevant to what we're doing here. And so I think the same is true in life. it is helpful like, you know, as we get older to understand like, okay, there are some constraints. And doesn't mean I can't do a lot of stuff, but because I can't do everything

What then does that mean? And so it it's a scary thing, I think, at first for people like me and maybe maybe you, I don't know, but like people who just like, I wanna I wanna do more. It's scary to understand or to accept that reality, like that there are these like constraints and limitations. it's kinda like there's this thing in the book about like, hey, good news, you're like you're gonna die, like everybody's gonna die, right? Just be aware of this, right? And once you know this and once you think about death, then at first you're like that sucks, but then actually it can help you and it can motivate you.

like to live purposefully and intentionally. And so I think the same is true with that question of like anything or everything. Like once you understand that life is about choosing and we do have to make some choices, well that can be overwhelming or we can celebrate the choices that we do make. And you have to make a choice to to choose to celebrate.

Tim (15:43.374)

Well, I think that's why the podcasting aligned with me so much and felt so good because it allowed me to be a generalist in a way and pursue a lot of different curiosities and sort of have them within all one ecosystem rather than feeling like needing to go deep down one path. Why is productivity not the answer to time anxiety?

Chris Guillebeau (16:05.956)

Mm-hmm. Well, first, just a note on being a generalist, I think that's great. I think that's I think I think what you've done is you've found a wrapper for it, like a container. And so that's what people need to do. You know, if you're a generalist without a wrapper or container, then it's very frustrating, right? Because you're just, you don't have any any direction for it. but if you're like, okay, I've, you know, what do my interests broadly fit into? I don't have to niche it down so much. Like I really disagree with this advice about like choose the most specific niche, you know.

Like it it can be like a broad vision or a broad mission, but it's still like what are how are things aligned? You know, when I first started writing a blog way back in the day, it was like the blog is called The Art of Nonconformity. Very broad, right? Like, what is nonconformity? Well, what does it mean to you? Or what does it mean to you? You know, like people can kind of you know define it for themselves, which is great. so I think being a generalist with a container is the way to go. And then about productivity, I mean I come to that.

through my own experience as well, because I I like productivity tools and methods and hacks and like what's the new app and like how can I get like two percent more out of my workday or my focus. I like things like that. But I liked them so much that I I kind of I kind of realized like, okay, well after you like get some good habits in your life, you know, after you like have some discipline or you optimize some things.

Then you kind of like run up at against a logical limit at a certain point. And getting one or two more percent more is not really gonna fundamentally change your life. And so I kind of realized like I'm just trying I'm just getting getting better at and better at doing the wrong things. Like I feel like and I feel like a lot of people are like this. They're getting very efficient at doing the wrong things. And so does that make you happy? You know, I don't think it does. And I think the whole productivity industrial complex, as I call it, is kind of built on this like false narrative.

that life is manageable and controllable, when in fact life is chaotic and again the options are unlimited. And so you cannot put all of the options available to you in life into a spreadsheet or a notion database or anything else and say, Help me figure out, you know, which options to do. You can't even put all the options available to you on any given day. So it requires a higher level of thinking than just y just being productive. So there's nothing wrong with like using tools and stuff, but I think

Chris Guillebeau (18:29.083)

People are are expecting that the answer to their disillusionment or their discontent lies in mastering a system or a bullet journal method or something, and ultimately that's just a distraction.

Tim (18:41.537)

We have such a tight correlation between production and time. And if we're not using our time to always produce something, then it means that we're not using our time effectively. And that goes to that anxiety. I've certainly felt it before in my life as well. I feel like the biggest tool that's helped me when it comes to this concept of time anxiety and especially getting into the feeling and being grounded in our body is meditation. And I feel like meditation for me started as

a mental pursuit, but now it's more so become a physical pursuit of like I was saying, just being grounded in my body and like being truly where you are. Have you meditated at all in your life? Or how do you see meditation as being an effective tool for time anxiety?

Chris Guillebeau (19:28.677)

I think meditation like is is you know clinically proven, research proven to work for a lot of people and not for everyone. and so I I make I I'm I'm glad that it's worked well for you. I have lots and lots of friends who've been into it. I've tried it and maybe I just haven't tried it the right way, or maybe I come to it differently, or like I've I've learned to embrace different intuitive processes which maybe like create the same kind of outcome. So for me, meditation, at least the structured form of meditation, you know, whether it's with the apps or something else.

it hasn't really stuck with me, but I have learned to like lean more into in intuitive practices. And I do a lot of questions, and so there's some exercises. I think this this is something that's helpful for anybody if you're trying to like just be more intentional about your time. Is like you can ask at the end of the day, did today matter? And you ask yourself, like, hmm, today, did it matter or not? Because, you know, in life, sometimes we have days that just pass by and it's

You know, maybe it's a good day or a bad day. That doesn't really matter. That's not the question. The question is, did it did it matter? did I did I make progress on my goals? Did I get closer to people that I care about? You know, did I do something that I believe in? You know, did I have fun? You know, like whatever it can be all those things. And so most people when you ask that question, they have like an answer, like you know in in your in your heart, your soul, or however you like to think about it, you know what your answer is. And so, like for me, I got into this thing of like, let's build a streak of days that matter, you know.

So it's not quite meditation, but it's like reflection and there's some other other like exercises and things that I do.

Tim (20:58.999)

I like that.

Tim (21:03.061)

To take a step back from that and to bring another word into it, how do you think mindlessness and time anxiety relate to each other?

Chris Guillebeau (21:11.077)

Hmm. Mind mindlessness, did you say? Or my out there you say mindfulness. Mindlessness. What do you mean by mindlessness?

Tim (21:13.837)

Yeah.

Tim (21:21.025)

I guess the opposite of mindfulness and kind of just going through life on autopilot, 'cause I feel like that's when time can really get the better of you.

Chris Guillebeau (21:28.623)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, it's tricky. I feel like I've gone through lots of parts of my life on autopilot and the first thing I think of is is routine. Like I like routine. I think routine is generally helpful most of the time. It's like if you're building an exercise routine, it's like this is just what I do, you know, I don't have to think about it too much, I just go into it. So you can build healthy habits, but maybe if you if your life ends up getting too structured, you know, or too

too built on routines, then you end up in that mindlessness where it's like the time is just passing by, right? And what did I do today? I don't know. You know, and I've certainly been in that a lot. And so I think some disruption is helpful. Like a routine is good overall. and then once in a while you should disrupt your routine and do something different. just kind of changing environment or changing a schedule or changing patterns every now and then I think is helpful to like

Just, you know, change something in your brain and be like, okay, what's what's going on? And and am I happy in that routine? Am I am I wishing to get back to that routine or do I feel freer and more purposeful with something something different? I think it's always gonna be good to be like questioning our life and like, you know, what can we what can we do to get closer to whatever our ideal state is?

Tim (22:49.023)

Yeah, I completely agree with that. I feel like the less change we make, the more time can feel like it's on autopilot. Are there some big changes within your life that you really point to that have helped with that?

Chris Guillebeau (23:00.753)

Hmm.

You know, I for a long time I had like a very solid and consistent writing effort. I was like, I'm gonna write a thousand words a day. And I did that for many years. And then I kind of got away from it and I was like, well, I like writing, of course. but I don't know that it needs to be a daily habit in that same way, at least for a while. Maybe there's other things I want to do. same with travel. Like I you know, I used to travel all the time. I would go around the world, like literally around the world once a month.

And I'd be in like 30 countries a year. And I really loved the frenetic like nature of that. It was fun. But I think like it had a time and a place, like it had a season in my life. And, you know, then I went to another season where now I'm not traveling as much. But in between the two seasons, there was this period where I kept doing it because it's what I knew how to do. And it was closely tied to my identity as well. I'm like, I'm the guy who like goes around the world, you know, I'm like flying all the time.

You know, I'm like posting from whatever city or you know, and it's like that's who I am. And it was like, Well, it that's who I was, but do I need to be that? You know, is there something else that would make me happier? And took me a little while to acknowledge, yeah, like I I can change. Like I'm I'm telling people to change all the time. I'm not telling them, but I'm encouraging people and like giving models of change and here's how so and so changed their life. Well, what am I doing to change my life? You know, just because I'm self employed, I have autonomy,

To a certain degree doesn't mean that I can't just get as as stuck as anybody else, you know, or like missing the forest for the trees. And so those are a couple of things I think of. There's probably there's probably more.

Tim (24:44.077)

I feel like that's where unwilling changes can be such a gift within our life as well. And I like that you use the word disruptor because when I reflect on my life, it's the unwilling changes that have allowed for the biggest disruptions in the short term, but have led to the biggest periods of growth. When I think about different physical health issues I've had or being laid off from a job, like those disruptions change my environment and change my makeup.

Chris Guillebeau (25:03.462)

Yeah, right.

Tim (25:12.865)

Do you feel like you've had those same experiences as well?

Chris Guillebeau (25:13.286)

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I'm glad you s I'm glad you said that. Yeah. I learned a few years back, because I was writing more entrepreneurial books and I would do book tours and have a lot of people come up and share experiences. And I learned a few years back that when people s you know come up and share experience about like being laid off or something, though I don't remember when it started, but one time I like took a little risk and I and instead of saying like, I'm sorry, like in response, 'cause that's what everybody always says.

I said, Congratulations, you know. and their eyes like lit up, you know, and they were like, Nobody's ever said that. Like, I that's great, you know, and like I'm like it really sucked when it happened, but I'm actually like, I'm either on a better track now or I can see that this can be good for me. And so I don't always say that, like there's a time and a place, but I think often, you know, these unexpected changes, it's like, I had a relationship, you know, end unexpectedly. That's really hard. But congratulations on your new life.

You know, like life has given you this this chance. and so, yeah, I mean certainly for for me, a number a number of things, right? and it's hard. Like it never gets easier. It's not like, I've written books on these things, so therefore when I encounter unexpected change or disruption, I'm like, Great, this is really wonderful. Like, no, I hate it. But, you know, I guess I I still intellectually know, all right, this is you know, ultimately this is probably gonna be okay, maybe even better.

Tim (26:38.817)

Another phrase that I like to use is this is a blessing not in disguise.

Chris Guillebeau (26:42.866)

That's good. That's good. There's no disguise about it. That's good.

Tim (26:47.725)

Another experience that I had that was a real disruptor for me, and this was a willing undertaking. I went to a men's retreat a couple years back. It was a lot of meditations, reflections, a lot of different writing exercises. And another key factor of that retreat was no phones. So for a little over three days, didn't have our phones the entire time. And when I reflected on that, I thought.

Chris Guillebeau (27:05.298)

Uh-huh.

Tim (27:14.987)

Man, the days are actually a lot longer than I actually thought. And you can do a lot. How do you think our relationship with time, time anxiety maps to our relationship with our phone?

Chris Guillebeau (27:18.391)

Chris Guillebeau (27:29.522)

Mm, okay. Yeah, I I always think of this quote from Gretchen Rubin about the the days are long but the years are short. And she talked about it as like in relation to like bringing up her two daughters and every day she would walk them to school in New York City. And you know, like like the days are long and like all these things are happening in the days, but yet the years are just passing by. Like what's up with that, right? And in in my book I kind of flipped it a little bit and I was like, well

You know, the the days are short, I feel like the days just kind of go by. But the year if you think about a year worth of planning, you can whole you can actually plan a whole lot of stuff, you know, over the course of a year. If you have some like specific goals and intentions, and maybe one of your goals or intentions is like like how can I make sure I'm not tethered, you know, to technology? and I want to use technology, it's not like an anti-tech message. It's it's it's more like the technology needs to serve me.

you know, not the other way around, you know. AI needs to serve you. AI needs to be like a helpful tool in your life, and it can be for lots of people. or it could be something that like you are in service to. So whether it is social media or AI or technology broadly or your phone, which obviously everybody has a r I think you use the phrase relationship with your phone. I mean I think we have a relationship with our phones, you know. Like my screen time is not like huge.

But it's like probably like four or five hours a day, you know, on my phone and that's like all I mean, I hear some from like some kids sometimes who it's like twelve or more hours a day. and surely that's I mean, that can't be good for us, right?

Tim (29:09.249)

Yeah, that's what I always think about it. I always try to phrase it in terms of relationship because like you were saying, it can be used as a tool. in your favor. You know, things aren't just objectively good or bad, but it's okay, what is my relationship with that? And is that a good or a bad relationship?

Chris Guillebeau (29:27.219)

Mm. Yeah, that's smart.

Tim (29:29.633)

going deeper into that idea, like that you said that no, the days can feel short as well. And I feel like something that's been really helpful for me, when it comes to work or just pursuing different projects is shifting from a mindset of, you know, asking myself, Did I complete this today? to simply just like, did I push the ball forward today? Like some days it can feel like I just took one step forward.

Chris Guillebeau (29:55.997)

Sure. Yeah. Mm.

Tim (29:58.87)

Another day can feel like I took ten steps, but grand scheme of things, I see that as the same day because I moved forward. How can that mindset when it comes to work of just like sticking within completion actually hold us back from doing more?

Chris Guillebeau (30:15.085)

Mm-hmm. I think the problem is that that work as we know it, for for so many of us, probably most people listening to this or watching this, it's never done. Like work is never done or complete. Like there is always something more to be done. You know, if you are doing any kind of knowledge work in a company, an organization, if you're self-employed or like there's always more things, you know, that can be done. And so it's part of what contributes to our distress.

ac actually is if we become competent and we are good at our job, then we finish things quicker and then we start more things. And then it's just an unending cycle. And so we don't have a sense of satisfaction or a sense of of completion. And so ultimately what we want to do is, as you said, move things forward. And so something that I think is very helpful is just defining what done looks like. You know, what does what is good enough in this situation? What well I want to

I want to start a new podcast. What does that look like? Okay, how many episodes, you know, am I going to have in the first season or the first year, however I think of it? like let's define the constraints. and you can do this, you know, in your job as well. You can do this for anything you're doing. if you if you finish the episodes and you're like, I want to do 12 more or something, that's great. But creating like these points, these anchor points or milestones. you know, I had this other project a long time ago called the happiness of pursuit.

where I was like looking at people who did quests and like people who like give up their whole life in some cases, like big sacrifices to pursue like this quest that would take them years and years and years. And what are the characteristics, you know, of those people and why do they do it and so on. And one of the characteristics was milestones of like it's very helpful to have like milestones to point towards. So a sense of completion a sense of completion in and the things that we do can lower our anxiety and just give us some satisfaction.

Right. Otherwise you feel like nothing is ever done and that's not a good that's not a good feeling.

Tim (32:13.143)

Do you feel like writing has been that main thing for you when it comes to that?

Chris Guillebeau (32:19.016)

I mean writing podcasts. I like projects. I like I like work that is like, here's the here's the project. It's a big project maybe. There's lots of components to it, but I am able to point to it at a certain point, like a book, and be like, okay, the book is out, right? I host events as well, and there's a lot of complexity and moving parts with it. But events are great because they have a built-in deadline. You can't push it back, right? If you're like telling everybody, hey, come to this thing in six months from now.

If it if five months from now arrives and you're like, man, like I I really need more time, doesn't you know, too bad. You have to like make it work. So I I kind of like some built in constraints of a deadline. So I like projects, anything that can be defined as opposed to something that just goes on forever.

Tim (33:08.397)

I feel like the granularity of language there is really important to use as well, like we were talking about earlier. I feel like there's such a correlation between production and time and I feel like I've heard you use a word a lot, when talking about your word. Not talking about production, but creation. What do you see as the difference there between production and creation?

Chris Guillebeau (33:29.384)

Hmm. Very good question. I mean, I guess sometimes there's not a difference, right? Like I mean, I could be like high minded and be like, production is like some kind of base act, you know, and creation is like, you know, this brilliant thinking, but I don't know that it's always like that. I mean, I think a lot of creation is very like rudimentary and like just like, you know, working on something over and over and like iteration.

that's what makes something good. That's what makes art good, you know, like any kind of art is like iteration. Editing is everything, you know. If I think about the books I'm most proud of, like the books I'm most proud of are the ones that had like the most rounds of edits. you know, the most where it's like the book is mostly complete, but I think there's some like if I just do a little bit more, it's gonna be a little bit better. It's never really d like it could it's never perfect, obviously. Like you could keep going. So eventually you have to like accept the done to go to our last point. But

Yeah, just production and creation. I mean, I don't know. I think ultimately creation is not always this like high minded thing, I guess, you know?

Tim (34:39.831)

Hmm. Yeah, I agree with that. Something that people tout about themselves as a massive scale, but you see it as otherwise, and I find it interesting. Why is time management a myth?

Chris Guillebeau (34:52.984)

because time is a construct. Time is like time is not something like money management is like, okay, money managed, I've got money. This is like a defined resource to a certain degree and we know what it's valued at and so on. But time is just like time goes with or without you. You know, you can't like when people talk about their s like my superpower is this or whatever, like if you were really like a superhero about time management, you would you would like stop time.

That's what you would, that's what superheroes do. You know, they do stuff that's like not possible in the physical world. And so you would be like, I just need to catch up. So let's put time on hold, you know, for three days, or let's stop, you know, time for everybody else so that I can get ahead or something. But we can't do that. So time is you know, time is not something that can be managed. You know, it's it's a fallacy, right? It's something that we have to just kind of learn to to work with and to cooperate with. It's like to manage something also implies you can defeat it.

You know, it kind of implies like, it's this is a battle and one person can win. Time would always win, a hundred percent of of it, right? So because time can always win, I think, you know, some language is like, dominate your work day, you know, I'm like, Good luck, you know, right?

Tim (36:07.351)

Yeah. Yeah, I mean time can't be managed, but to mirror that, the perception of time obviously changes. And I find that a interesting concept that you explore as well. How does our experience of time change as we age?

Chris Guillebeau (36:23.464)

Yeah, it pretty much goes one direction, which is that, you know, when we are young, and again we can define that more specifically, like if we're a little kid, you're like a kid who's like six, like time seems to be passing like very slowly because everything is new and there's all these experiences and like the time between your birthdays, you know, is just so long, right? And you're like anticipating your birthday like for so long and

Then there are these like adolescent milestones, you know, of like going to middle school, high school, maybe get your driver's license, graduation, all these things. These are like really big like life moments. And so we're kind of anticipating them, you know, for a while. And again, it seems like there's a long time, you know, in between them. And if you look at your parents, you're like, your parents are just so old. It's crazy how old your parents are, right? Or your grandparents, you can't fathom it, right? But then like, you know, you start growing up and then

There's there's a lot fewer milestones, you know. Like after 21, you know, well, you got 30, I guess, right? You got 40, but like this is spaced out a lot more than when you're a kid. Yet it seems like time is passing faster because I think we have so much more routine in our day, and because so much is not new, so much is the same. It's very rare to encounter like a lot of new things as an adult. And so I think, you know, what what do we take from that? Well, there's there's

joy in approaching the world like through a child's eyes, you know, or there's joy in trying to disrupt or to have new experiences or to have adventures and think about what's kind of fun for us, you know, like what are some things we want to do and why are we not doing them? And like just the sense of like there's this old quote about it's like Joseph Campbell about people think we're looking for the meaning of life and what we're looking for is the sense of being alive. And I mean that quote is like

a little bit of a cliche at this point, but I I still like it because it's like it's so true. We're looking for the sense of being alive. And so when you're a kid and all this new stuff is happening, you have the sense of being alive or when you're a young adult and at a certain point things change and I think you have to actively work to get it back. It doesn't just happen on its own.

Tim (38:30.615)

Going deeper into that importance of language, and I like that you make that distinction within your writing as well. What's the difference between being alive and feeling alive?

Chris Guillebeau (38:42.249)

What's the difference between being alive and feeling alive? I guess it's like breathing, in that you know, everybody is breathing all day, all the time. Most of us, 99.whate percent of us are not really thinking about it very much. Now, this is where meditation is actually very helpful, right? Because it's like all about being intentional about the breath or yoga as well.

And what's funny, like I went to yoga for years before I actually understood that it's about the breath, you know, like, okay, that it's connected, right? It's not just these poses. Like there's a whole point to this. It's a spiritual practice. and so being alive versus feeling alive, everybody is alive, right? But not everybody's, you know. What's the thing about like, you know, everybody everybody dies, but not everybody lives, you know? Like less I guess that's a little pop culture, but we'll throw it in, right?

Like everybody is alive, but are is everybody like feeling alive?

Tim (39:42.702)

When it comes to emotions, I feel like what's also really effective is understanding the opposites. Like I recently had on Daker Keltner from Cal Berkeley, who's done a lot of research into the emotion of awe. And I also had Kamal Ravikant on to talk about his work and his writing on self love. And I asked them about like what do you see as the opposite of awe? What do you see as the opposite of self love? So I'm curious to know on your end as well, what do you see as the opposite of time anxiety?

Chris Guillebeau (40:11.433)

Mm. Yeah, okay. what comes to mind? Relief. if we are anxious or in distress, we're seeking relief. Maybe that's the best word. I also think acceptance, you know, because like people are fighting time and so part of the answer is acceptance. But we want to go beyond like just accepting. We also want to thrive somehow, right? We want to like be better. So I guess maybe it's like time relief.

you know, choosing well, something like that. It's not the most pithy, you know, or single word thing, but I guess it you know, ultimately we want to choose well. Like we want to like be like, okay, there's a lot of different lives I could have had and there's not one perfect one. I could have done a lot of different things and that's okay. but I'm actually pretty happy with what I did choose. You know, I think that's all that's maybe that's a good goal.

Tim (41:08.183)

Feel like from my personal experiences, the word that came top of mind for me was faith. And this goes back to those unwilling experiences where I think we all have times within our life that we don't know when we'll get to the other side of things. And there's there's not a countdown clock of like, okay, just one more day and you'll you'll get there. And I feel like faith is the thing that I've tapped into when

I've kind of been blinded by what time is gonna look like.

Chris Guillebeau (41:40.629)

Mm. Mm. That's great. Yeah, I mean like faith is like the you know, the belief that something is going to be better, right? Like even if you can't see the way, right? Even if you're not sure how.

Tim (41:51.79)

I like that you also talk about this notion that quitting can be a really good thing when it comes to our time. And that's something that's played a huge role within my life. And I see it as creating another duality here. I see it as quitting versus giving up, where like quitting can mean like taking a step forward and that can actually mean progress. Whereas I see like giving up as, well, maybe you should have kept pursuing that. Like

Chris Guillebeau (42:19.179)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (42:19.863)

Things can take time to flourish, like you gave up too early. How do you see is that relationship between knowing when to quit versus you gave up there?

Chris Guillebeau (42:30.078)

Right. Well, I guess the first thing is you have to to understand that it is often good to quit, right? Because there is very much a belief, you know, winners never quit, you know, is this very, very flawed belief I think that holds so many people back and prevents people from like moving into something so much better for their life, right? I feel like you know, real winners quit all the time. Real winners are not at all afraid to say, I got some new information. you know, I thought this was gonna be the right thing.

Tim (42:35.533)

Mm-hmm.

Chris Guillebeau (42:59.286)

Turned out it wasn't. And so I'm gonna do something different and I'm not gonna worry about the sunk costs, you know. I'm gonna yeah, in fact, it may not even be a sunk cost. I may have learned something through this experience that's going to help me, you know, in the next one. So I always actually have a bias towards quitting or, you know, choosing something different. but yeah, how do you know the difference? 'Cause there is obviously value also in persistence, you know, and consistency. I think you have to

Like you ask yourself about your motivations. Like am I still motivated for this? Like this thing is hard, but I still believe in it. Okay, well that's maybe that's the time to persist, right? this thing is hard and just kinda sucks and like maybe something else is better, or maybe that's the time to quit.

Tim (43:45.592)

To continue bringing my own experiences into this when it comes to time, I feel like my relationship with time is long term focused but next step focused. It's kind of like got a paradoxical nature. Does that make sense at all?

Chris Guillebeau (43:59.544)

It does. I think that's yeah, I think that's wise. Right. You want to pair the two, right?

Tim (44:05.015)

How do you feel like you've seen that throughout your life, whether it is like focused on the long term and being patient or being impatient?

Chris Guillebeau (44:13.238)

I mean, I think it's a very logical combination. and I think most people who are successful in the sense of like they set a goal or they want to do something and it requires multiple steps and stages and it's not simply like a clear line, you know, from A to B, but there's like there's gonna be some exploration along the way. I think most people have a they either have that mindset and they're able to like identify it like you just did.

Or they just kind of live that way. and I I think, you know, in a lot of ways I've done that. And I had this process of doing an annual review that I did for like more than 15 years. I'm still doing a little bit, but not as much. But for 15 years, every year at the end of the year it would be like, what was my year like like this year? And let me just review a bunch of stuff and let and what are my goals for next year in different categories and then what are the steps and so on. And so then like therefore I am hopefully always matching like the long-term goal with the with the next step.

And so not everybody thinks in that same way, but I think as a principle, it's very wise.

Tim (45:21.837)

When comes to our understanding of legacy, how has your definition of legacy evolved over the course of your life and how do you think it's allowed you to be more impactful and effective with your time?

Chris Guillebeau (45:33.996)

Yeah, I've almost completely walked away from the like the belief in like, let's create a legacy, you know. I even had a whole chapter in my first book about creating a legacy project and I still believe in in building things and trying to think about impact and what's the value you can offer the world that is unique to you. I think those are just very good motivational questions to drive like whatever it is you end up making. But I think legacy is an outcome that is outside

one's control. And so, you know, we can control the inputs, but we can't control like what actually happens. And so whether there is a legacy or not is is not something that just like you don't get to decide that. I don't get to decide that, right? That's a that's something for somebody else to decide. So I don't I feel like it's like time management, you know, I'm not pursuing a legacy. I'm thinking about what is it like to live well and how can I use the time that I have well? How can I

you know, hopefully contribute something of value. And that's like that's my objective. And then somebody else decides like where it stacks up.

Tim (46:42.327)

Do you have like a conscious definition of what live well means to you, or is it more so of kind of just an intangible North Star sort of getting more so into that feeling phase?

Chris Guillebeau (46:50.007)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I've done a few different things over the years. I it kind of varies. I mean, like I often think of this this phrase, you don't have to live your life the way other people expect. That's like the defining like mission of the art of nonconformity and, you know, my other projects and stuff. and then in terms of what I think of living well, it's, you know, the streak of days that matter. It's you know, for a while, for a while I had this like five goals thing where it was like,

Here are the five things I want to accomplish in my life. And every day I kind of ask myself, you know, what did I do about each of them? And if I have like 17 other things I did, but not anything related to the five, then that's that's not great. I'm getting away from the North Star. I don't know. I did that for a while. I think it's helpful. but then it's also okay to change things up. So I guess I guess for me, I don't know if it is super defined, but I do think it's like

You know it when you see it, right? You know you know when you have it. You know when you are living well, you know when you are like working towards something that you care about. And once you've done that for a while, then it's very frustrating when you're not. Like if you get in a pattern or you like you feel like you don't have that thing, okay, that happens in life, but you wanna get unstuck because like why wouldn't you wanna, you know, feel great about making things?

Tim (48:13.645)

My favorite quote on time comes from Earl Nightingale and I feel like I felt found this pretty early on in my life. Don't let the fear of the time it will take to accomplish something stand in the way of your doing it. The time will pass anyway. We might just as well put the passing time to the best possible use.

Chris Guillebeau (48:32.039)

Mm. That's great. The ti time will pass either way.

Tim (48:37.643)

What are your deeper reflections on that and how do you feel like that's played a role in your life?

Chris Guillebeau (48:41.185)

I don't think I can improve on on that. I think that's great. I don't think I can improve on that. I mean, I guess all I would add to it is you know, we we talked in the beginning of this conversation about people feeling worried about, you know, not enough time. And you know, the whole thing about it is, sure, there's not enough time in life, right? Let's accept that. There's not enough time for all the things we'd like to do today.

but guess what? You know, if you if you're like listening to this or watching this, there's still s there's still time. There's still some time. And we got the we have like time ahead of us. And hopefully, you know, even though time is going to run out at some point, hopefully you've got a lot of it left. So what are we gonna do with that, right? Time's gonna pass either way, you know, to your point with that beautiful quote, how can we make the most of it?

Tim (49:30.093)

Chris, I think that's a beautiful place to stop. Where can people go to learn more about you? Anything else you'd like to share?

Chris Guillebeau (49:38.261)

Tim, thank you so much, man. it's a great conversation. ChrisGillibau.com, Timeanxiety dot com. the event I host every year is called Neurodiversion, Neurodiversion.org.

Tim (49:50.751)

Awesome. Great talking with you today.

Chris Guillebeau (49:52.715)

Thanks, man. Great questions.