#125 - Charles Eisenstein - RFK Jr.'s Former Speechwriter Explains Why Modern Life Feels So Disconnected

Charles Eisenstein believes that beneath nearly every modern problem is the same hidden story: separation. From technology and politics to relationships and purpose, we explore how that story shapes our lives, why it may be reaching its limits, and what a different way of living could look like.

Timestamps:
00:00 Your Work Isn't Really Yours
04:23 Being Unhappy At Yale University
05:54 Moving To Taiwan Was The Real Education
08:14 Story As The Foundation For Life - We're Separated
20:00 Interbeing: The Opposing Force To Separation
23:19 The Impact Of Technology On Separation & Interbeing
31:11 How To Actually Create Change Within Yourself & The World
43:43 Why The Old Story Must Break Before A New One Can Begin
48:25 Understanding The Storytellers Of The Old Story
53:34 Why Biohacking & Longevity Aren't The New Story
58:00 Being RFK Jr.'s Campaign Speechwriter
1:03:44 Charles' Writing Process
1:05:34 Final Thoughts

Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.

Connect with me below:
Instagram: Tim Doyle
Youtube: Soulture

Transcript

Charles Eisenstein believes that beneath nearly every modern problem is the same hidden story: separation. From technology and politics to relationships and purpose, we explore how that story shapes our lives, why it may be reaching its limits, and what a different way of living could look like.

Tim (00:05.484)

I think one of the most common questions when you meet someone new is what do you do for work? How would you answer that?

Charles (00:13.228)

Uhhuh. Well, I do for work what many, many people do for work is I sit in front of this box and and this square and I wiggle my fingers around in the superstitious belief that I'm actually doing something. also I have conversations, usually mediated by another box. If if if everybody w were replaced by like AI avatars, it would probably take me a little while to figure that out.

Tim (00:31.838)

I like it

Tim (00:39.126)

I think we like to have a sense of ownership over our work, but you've been pretty adamant in stating the opposite. You say because the source of my writing is not me, I prefer not to call what I do my work. If I weren't doing it, it would find someone else to do it. Why do you think this work has found you?

Charles (01:01.346)

gosh, how can I say that without sounding grandiose? I mean, I feel like I was made, made I don't know, genetically, karmically, but just by my life circumstances to be attuned to this particular body of information that has recruited me. but yeah, I'm not. yeah, I don't really feel ownership over it. You know, I feel like it would find somebody else if I were not.

up to the task, which kind of takes the pressure off. but I do feel really called. so yeah, to answer the previous question in a less flippant way. I'm a writer, speaker, and I do kind of behind the scenes stuff as well.

Tim (01:50.594)

What do you think some of those life circumstances have been that allowed for you to be called to this?

Charles (01:56.595)

Well, I guess I kind of got shook loose from normal at a pretty early age. partly through my my upbringing. My my father was a politically very well, not very radical, but radical enough that that he introduced me to radical literature that confirmed my

Suspicion that something is wrong here behind the facade of normal. Behind the facade of normal, there's something wrong. And that that reality isn't what has been presented to us. So I first became aware of that in a political sense, but that primed me to take seriously experiences I had later on that confirmed it in more than just a political sense.

Like, you know, metaphysical sense, spiritual sense. Yeah.

Tim (03:01.867)

And it felt like that naturally spoke to you when you were younger.

Charles (03:06.45)

Yeah, I felt I mean I guess I had a mix of emotions, you know, one was shock and outrage, but also a deep sense of confirmation.

Like for example, I read Gulag Archipelago as a teenager about the the Soviet gulag. And even though that conformed to the reigning politics of the United States, it

Charles (03:40.409)

It kind of arrested me. Like, how could human beings do this to each other? Like, I can't figure that out. Like, that didn't sit in any explanation that I had for you know, that makes sense of the world. It was like this glaring exception, this anomaly. and then eventually I connected it with other anomalies that formed a much bigger picture of reality.

Tim (04:09.985)

How do you reflect back on your time at Yale?

Charles (04:14.338)

man, I was pretty unhappy there. you know, I just went there because I got in, you know, and because college is what you do after high school. but I was woefully unprepared in a emotional sense, to really, you know, and I guess partly like I just didn't believe in the whole thing. You know, I'm like, why? Why should I get good grades?

Why should I try hard? There's a whole narration of what it is to be a worthy person, how you do life. And it was imbued in that institution, you know, because that's where you get status from living life in the most admirable, culturally condoned way. And

know not I don't want like reduce it to just that. I mean there are you know fascinating sciences and and ways of learning that are available to a place like that but s next to all those was this abiding sense that this isn't the life that I'm here to live. It was unconscious that it that only really blossomed into conscious awareness after I I left after I left you.

Tim (05:41.131)

Yeah, I mean, how did moving to Taiwan really act, I guess, as the education that you were looking for?

Charles (05:49.562)

Yeah, so at Yale I studied mathematics and philosophy, which is kind of the foundations of knowledge in our culture. because I'm like, you know, what's really going on here? And I did not get satisfying answers. I I enjoyed those subjects, but I didn't get satisfying answers to that. And then I go to Taiwan and I have, you know, on the one hand, psychedelic, a very, very powerful LSD trip that just shattered what I

Had accepted without fully accepting as reality. And then also culturally, there were many phenomena there and ways of approaching life that drew on a different understanding of what is real, a different understanding of how the world works. And I couldn't just dismiss those. I could, well, I could have, I could have said, yeah, these people are superstitious, they're deluded.

They're putting me on with these ghost stories and these fabrications about qigong, you know, and these delusions about Chinese medicine and acupuncture and stick the new where's the mechanism? You know, I could have like resorted, I could have retreated to the knowledge system I had grown up in, but

I I guess partly because of my earlier openness to reality being different than what has been presented, I was kind of open to those things. I'm like, gosh, you know, I'm literally experiencing like these sensations in my body when the Qigong teacher puts his hand near me. You know, yeah, I could explain them away as some kind of psychological suggestion, but why would I default to that explanation? Just because it fits in with everything else, I think.

And and that that that was one of many, many, many examples. So I was like, okay, thank you for this confirmation that reality is not as I've been told. Now what is it? And so I was very, very open by these experiences.

Tim (08:00.887)

So was it in Taiwan that you really got exposed to understanding what story is and really locking onto that term story, or how did that come to be?

Charles (08:11.306)

No. No, no. That came later. That that was after I moved back to the States and

Yeah, that developed over time. That that I mean maybe there were rudiments of it then, but that was that was after I moved back and I really all crystallized all of the different horrors and injustices and and you know, the eco-cide, the the the poverty, the violence, everything.

I realized that, these are all just different expressions of separation. Separation from community, separation from nature, separation from each other, body separate from mind, human separate from nature, soul separate from flesh, people separate from each other, separated by cars, by screens, by air conditioning, by technology, by money. so, so I'm like, okay, this is a way to

Unify all of these different wrong things. And maybe if I unify them and get to the foundational story, then any change that I commit myself to won't be just on a superficial level. That was what I was thinking at the time, anyway.

Tim (09:42.175)

So do you think like was there a tension or a friction when it when you were reacclimating to US culture after coming back from Taiwan? And did that friction kind of allow for that clarity or why do you think there was so much clarity there?

Charles (09:58.922)

Yeah, maybe, maybe I was feeling alienated. I had quite a lot of culture shock because I was deeply woven in there, you know. Spoke the language every day. I was dreaming in Chinese, you know, I was having relationships in Chinese, I was raising a kid in Chinese. and and I I was just really acclimated to a different way of life and a different way of thinking. so I came back.

And yeah, I mean I guess you know, I guess with a little distance sometimes you can see things more clearly. I don't know.

I mean I remember the moment where it all crystallized. I was I was walking, just getting some exercise, which itself is like like getting exercise, like this separate category from just being alive. Like that already there was something wrong there.

It's funny how work and play have been inverted. And now work is something that you do sitting and doing like work and leisure have been like for for a hunter-gatherer, you know, or like a primitive farmer, like you're spending most of your time not working because you're just sitting there wiggling your fingers. And the time when you say that you're not working is what you're doing what might look to them as work. But anyway, I was walking in the in the neighborhood and

And I was feeling just really sad and disturbed because there weren't any kids outside playing. And the whole reason, or lot of the reasons I moved back to the States to begin with, is that we had a little kid, you know, and another one on the way. And I was like, yeah, because we were living in a pretty urban environment. I'm like, yeah, you they'll be able to go outside. There'll be packs of kids running around, riding their bikes, playing hopscots, you know, playing tag, playing football. Like it's gonna be awesome because that's what it was when I was a kid.

Charles (12:01.103)

And there was just nothing of the kind. and it was obvious why, because every window I passed, there was this blue glow emanating from the screens in there. And and there just weren't, there were, I mean, it was like a you know middle class or even like working class, middle class neighborhood, you know, starter homes, you know, there were hundreds of kids in that neighborhood, and you just almost never saw them outside. And and I'm like

Wow, what is what is separating us from each other? And it wasn't one thing. Partly it was social attitudes about safety and protecting your chi kids and responsibility. Like we used to roam for for miles. There's statistics about the roaming radius of young children. you know, five year olds could be, you know, half a mile from home and it wouldn't wouldn't be a big deal. so that was part of it, but part of it is

Just that neighbors don't really have anything to do with each other anymore because we outsource everything we need by buying it. There's there's you don't need each other anymore. And if you don't need each other, then all that is left is to consume something together. But that doesn't really create community. Whereas when I was a kid, or even more generation before that, you wouldn't necessarily just hire a roofer.

fix your roof. Or like you wouldn't hire people for everything. Certainly you shouldn't send your kids to daycare centers. And the neighbors can watch the kids after school. You know? So that was that was I was like, wow, this is just one version after another after another of separation.

Tim (13:49.568)

A story is not just an intellectual construct, but it is co resonant with a state of being. If if those two shape each other, where do you think the change most often begins? Is it with the story or do you think it's with the state of being?

Charles (14:06.008)

Yeah, so that that that sentence talks about like a lot like maybe beliefs. I would say a story is is a belief. in you make a story about the world, I believe something. You know, I believe that the United States is the hero nation, or I believe that telepathy is bunkum, you know, or I believe that

there is an afterlife or you know, I believe in reincarnation, like all these different beliefs. they're not emotionally neutral.

Like I don't know, like I and I have contradictory beliefs within myself. Like on the one hand, you know, I listened to the telepathy tapes, I've seen demonstrations of blind vision, like you know, where they're wearing a mindfold and they can see colors and and I believe that these are legitimate phenomena.

I believe in the sincerity of the people. I I believe that it's actually happening. And on the other hand, there's part of me that because I was raised as an atheist. My my father was an atheist, my mother just didn't really talk about it. and a vehement atheist. So there's part of me that just doesn't believe in any of this crap. And it's like this cynical, tight,

stingy voice that says they're faking it. You know, they're just polluting themselves. It's a hoax. there is an alternative explanation. I don't know what the explanation is, but there must be one because this none of this stuff is real. Because what's real is that we are separate selves in a mechanical universe where meat machines programmed by our genes to maximize reproductive self-interest. And our minds are simply the the output of the neurons in our brain and and we're just a bag of chemistry. Okay.

Charles (16:16.565)

you can feel there's like a different vibration to that belief. It hurts, in fact. Or in me it corresponds to to some kind of pain.

And when I step into

Yeah, telepathy is real, and invisible beings are present with us right now, it feels different. And it calls to me to be a different person, to act in accordance with that. Because if that stuff is real and like you and I are connected.

And and in some sense, your well being is is inseparable from my own, and that of every human being. Like excuse me, got a little cough here. Who does that call us to be?

Charles (17:21.801)

So yeah, w we would like to think that we could choose our beliefs based on the evidence and the logic and be rational. Like I call that outsourcing belief to evidence, outsourcing belief to proof. When they prove it, then I'll believe it. But there's no such thing as proving it. You could dismiss any proof.

Like a s a a good stage magician can replicate pretty much all of these things. And if you're just reading about the study, how do you know how do you know that that was you know, were you actually there? So

Yeah, so outsourcing belief to proof. we'd like to think we could do that because it's kind of safe that way. You don't have to actually make a choice of who to be. But whether it is what we're talking about, you know, politics or science or anything else, when we accept that.

Belief is connected to a state of being, it changes everything. And and that doesn't, you know. So as far as what you asked, like which comes first. but I think that that I I'd say it's more that beliefs follow an evolution in our state of being. They're indicators, but they also can provide choice points. When when you're kind of in transition, you know, and part of you is still.

That old self and part of you is a new self and like those are the moments where you can take on a new belief.

Tim (19:04.575)

It's interesting that you have access to both of those voices. And I feel like we all have that to a degree. That that old voice that always needs the proof and that new voice that's calling us to something different. And going to that state of being, another huge philosophy of yours that you share po share about. And I like that a lot of the the work and the writing that you do, what what makes it digestible for people is understanding the dual nature of things. So if we understand

What separation is, you have to understand or what you, you know, bring into the equation is inner being. What was it like becoming consciously aware of that word inner being and understanding what that means?

Charles (19:49.486)

Yeah. I first started using it, I used the word interbeingness in the first major book that I wrote called The Ascent of Humanity. and later I discovered that, you know, I wasn't the first person to think of that idea. in fact it's been used in Buddhism for a long time. Interbeing. Teknat Han popularized it and and developed it.

to a high degree. And basically it but it naturally occurs to anybody who really thinks about who we are. You know, if we're not a separate self, then what are we? Well we're not like undifferentiated oneness either. Like we definitely have an experience of being separate. So what what it is for me is that there's something of you in me.

And there's something of me in you, and that therefore, and in everybody, and so every relationship I have also reveals something about myself. And anything that happens to the planet is happening to me. If the Amazon dies, maybe I die, maybe all humans die, but I don't think so. I think what happens is that something sacred within us dies.

And and this is like we have experiences like that all the time. You know, if if you go back to visit your the home you grew up in and it's been leveled and there's a sheet station there instead, like it kind of hurts, you know. It feels like something has been extinguished. So yeah, so inner being, and you can talk about it in terms of

Quantum mechanics too, and the fact that that nothing actually exists in space-time coordinates unless it interacts with something else. It's called a measurement. Interacts with you. Then it exists. But until then, it's just a kind of a field of potential, a superposition of many possibilities. So relationship is so basically.

Charles (22:16.171)

Inner being says that relationship is prior to existence. Existence comes from relationship. Being comes from relationship rather than you start with being and then you have relationships. It gets really metaphysical. I don't know if we really want to go there.

Tim (22:32.459)

Maybe for another conversation.

Charles (22:32.632)

Yeah.

Tim (22:36.951)

Understanding this framework between separation and inner being, bringing technology into that equation, does technology tie more closely to separation or can it be brought into inner being as well, you think?

Charles (22:56.696)

Technology well first we have to talk about what what do you even mean by technology? 'Cause you know, is the use of voice and vibration to alter consciousness, is that a technology?

Tim (23:17.345)

What is your opinion?

Charles (23:19.692)

You know, it's just a word that we could use in different ways. The the conventional way of thinking about it is technology is a system to apply force to matter in one way or another to control matter. And technological progress means progress in our ability to exercise force with precision. And today it's down to the genetic level, down to the molecular level.

The atomic level. That's what we've meant by technology. And so there's a progression over history of that kind of technology. But somehow, and that kind of technology is a force for separation. It holds the world as an object, and we manipulate the world. And we believe that the better we're able to do that, the more advanced we are, and the happier we will be.

And the healthier we will be. Somehow it hasn't worked out that way, though, has it? So we begin to question the utility of that technology. Not to say that it's useless, but we really start to question what is it for and what other kinds of technology. So technology in a broader sense is well, like the original sense of the word, I guess, is techni.

is I think from Greek meaning skill, logos, you know, a system, a logic, a language. So a logos of skills. and so in that broad sense

The skills, the abilities that are part of our humanness can be used to serve a different story. And so we can broaden what we mean by technology and therefore broaden what we mean by progress and recover capacities that have been lost in the story of separation, but that maybe ancient cultures had, that indigenous cultures maybe still have.

Tim (25:38.392)

Yeah, I always like to think of it's not necessarily the thing itself but our relationship to the thing. So it's not necessarily technology but our relationship to technology. When it comes to understanding the relationship between causes and symptoms, how have you gone about gone about I guess sense synthesizing that relationship, especially when you know one could be misunderstood for the other?

Charles (26:09.608)

Yeah, I mean that's

Charles (26:17.747)

try to f try to think of how to how to context that to bring in what we've already talked about.

Charles (26:27.741)

Part of the paradigm of control, you know, that that is part of the story of separation.

So a lot of our technology, especially medical technology, but also, you know, even social and political technology, it it is based on, I call it the war against the symptom. But even psychological technology. Like suppose you want to I don't know, be more humble or be less greedy, or be true to your word. So you'll

There's the the the formula is you identify the bad thing and you try to control the bad thing. So the bad thing is greed. I'm gonna control greed. The bad thing is compulsive, you know, addiction, overeating. So I'm gonna control the overeating. But these are actually just symptoms of something else. so, like say you have a habit of name-dropping and bragging. Well, what is that a symptom of? It's a symptom of an unmet need. Maybe it's the need for

Be to be fully seen, or the need to fully see yourself and respect yourself and love yourself. And as long as that need is not met, you're gonna go for the closest substitute for that. like and this is how addiction works. Like supposed like we have a need for intimacy. What if that's not met? What if you're lonely? Well, there's a lot of online porn that can.

At least, you know, give you the temporary experience of intimacy. And you might realize that that's you know wasting your time and and a bad thing in your life, and you want to control that. But willpower is finite and desire is infinite. Desire comes from an unmet need. So if you don't meet the need,

Charles (28:37.752)

Sooner or later, your willpower will be insufficient to the task. And then you'd be like, what's wrong with me? And this is true of any addiction. And if you look at on the societal level, like what are we addicted to as a society? We're maybe addicted to war, addicted to growth, addicted to oil, addicted to money, you know? Well, where are these addictions coming from?

And and so other symptoms, like pretty much everything that we judge as evil and go to war against is a symptom of something deeper. Like politically, like what's immigration a symptom of? You know, people who are I'm gonna now I probably your audience is divided on immigration questions, but but how many people are asking what it is a symptom of? Why is the what what what what causes people to uproot themselves from their culture and

risk everything to come to a foreign country. Like what's that a symptom of? What is crime a symptom of? Could be poverty, or it could be trauma, it could be something deeper that we don't even have a name for. And and so yeah, these questions don't always have easy answers. Like if you have an addiction, like say you you you you binge on food, binge on chocolate, like

They're the and eat the whole box of cookies or something like that.

You might have you might hear, okay, that's an a a a substitute for something I really need. What is that thing? Well, it must be, you know, I mean cookies could be a treat. So that's a way of being good to yourself. It's a way of self love. It might be that, it might be something else. It's not always obvious.

Charles (30:29.405)

but but in general

when we let go of that easy explanation that make mistake symptom for cause.

then we're in a s what I call the space between stories where you just don't know. Sometimes maybe you do know right away. God, that's what it is. But a lot of times you don't know. But at least you're not under the delusion that you know.

Tim (30:47.917)

Mm-hmm.

Tim (31:01.005)

Mm-hmm. Part of the logic of separation includes a theory of change. You have to exert a force on reality. So the more force you have at your disposal, the more powerful you are to change the world. That is a recipe for despair. What do you envision inner beings theory of change looking like?

Charles (31:21.462)

Yeah. So it's a recipe for despair because when you really look at the way the world works, you realize that you're not gonna have as much force at your disposal as the, you know, whatever it is, the capitalist oligarchs or the satanic elite or whatever your particular theory is. They have the the money, they have the guns, they have the weapons, they have the surveillance, they have the media, they have the propaganda, they've got the they have they have they got everything. You're not gonna defeat them in a fight.

So that theory of change, which is based on the story of separation, which is their own operating system anyway, leads to despair.

However, as we deepen our experience of our interconnection and our inter existence, our inter being.

We become aware of other causal principles operating in the world. We, for example, experience synchronicity. Synchronicity is something that you don't make happen. But it's not just random either. But you weren't you weren't in charge of that. And and it's like it's like kind of awe-inspiring, you know? Like, I can't believe I just met that person, you know, after after like

Y y you've experienced these things, yeah. So that is an indicator that there's another kind of intelligence operating in the world besides force.

Charles (32:59.786)

Who do we become and what are we capable of if we really step into that? Another theory of change, or principle, causal principle, I would say, is morphic resonance, which is Rupert Schaldrake's theory, that any change that happens in one place generates a field of change, so that the same change starts happening everywhere else. Anything that you do.

And this comes naturally from interbeing, because you're not separate from the world. So anything that you do kind of brings the world toward that choice. Even if nobody witnessed how generous you were to that needy person, how kind you were, how you took two days off to visit your grandmother.

You didn't brag about it, you didn't put it on YouTube, didn't go viral. Yet somehow we understand that those are really important things and that they change the world. So and so that's an example of morphic resonance. Any act of generosity creates a field of generosity. And without you making them be generous, across the world, people are just kind of nudged a little bit towards generosity. And others do the same for us.

And we can feel that. Like we can feel if you tune in. One of my favorite quotes is from Victor Frankel, who was a survivor of the of I guess I think it was Auschwitz or one of the concentration camps, more than one of them, I think. And he spoke of the the the the people who would go from hut to hut comforting others and giving away their last piece of bread.

Charles (34:57.478)

Most of those people th he said there weren't many of them of those people and most of them died.

Charles (35:09.643)

And the mind, the atheistic mind that I grew up with, says that those acts of generosity were futile and had no impact on the world because both the giver and the receiver died, and the story was never even told, never witnessed, never told. However, in this moment, right now, 80 years later,

We can feel those acts and how they change the how they how they're part of reality now. They're the like we can pluck those strings and they're within us. And

Who I am and who you are would be different if it weren't for those people. Like they gave us a nudge. And over history, there have been countless millions of people who have in the darkness done beautiful things with no possibility in their minds that it would ever save the world. Or they weren't doing it for that. They were doing it because.

This person is in need. This prisoner is hungry. This child is lonely. This person is sick. And they did something generous. And little did they know, or maybe they did know back then, but little did they know that.

They were calling in a future aligned with those choices. And so I I I think it's good to take a moment to feel those people and to thank them and and receive the gift that they've given us, because then that it comes more alive in us too. Cause you're like, they they did it. I can do that too, you know.

Tim (37:13.325)

So if we were to define all of that as inner beings theory of change, is that how you measure success for yourself in this work, or is success even a term that you really don't even like to use?

Charles (37:31.586)

I think it's more that measure is a term I don't like to use. measure me me measurement has its place in things, but

Charles (37:43.032)

No, I w I I

Charles (37:48.279)

No, I can't really objectively measure my success. The things that make me feel successful, it it's when somebody shares from their heart the impact that their words, that my words had on them. because you know, yeah, yeah, that lands a lot more than you know looking at the number of likes on a post.

Charles (38:19.37)

Numbers don't really do too much for me right now. Ironically, since I studied math. It's it's yeah.

Tim (38:29.623)

You're also somebody who doesn't liken yourself to having the answers. How has that freed you to serve more effectively, you think?

Charles (38:43.659)

Charles (38:50.336)

Yeah, I that's complicated.

I really don't wanna like do this kind of performative humility, you know, performative modesty where where I'm actually

pretending not to have access to really important information to share with people.

Charles (39:18.582)

But really what it is, is that I I recognize that that information is a gift.

Charles (39:29.95)

And

It's not mine. I didn't earn it. it's not because of my excellent qualities and virtues and practices and morals.

Charles (39:56.265)

Yeah, so so

Charles (40:00.48)

One one element of that information is the value of not knowing.

Because it's when you think you know that that that's what blocks actually knowing. It it it shields you from new information. So it's really about

Charles (40:26.196)

getting clear on what you actually know and what you're just pretending to know and and what you're pretending not to know what you actually know. That happens in relationships a lot.

Tim (40:41.997)

think a lot of the time, especially within the public sphere, I think there are a lot of people who would say they also don't have the answers, but then it kind of becomes the the pitfall for them is that they just become fixated on the problem only in only sharing the problem. How have you gone about, I guess

You know, understanding that you don't have the answers but not just being fixated on the problem.

Charles (41:14.426)

Mm, not really sure how to answer that.

Charles (41:24.134)

Yeah, Tim, that's a little bit too theoretical.

For me to answer.

Charles (41:39.346)

I like the question though, that wasn't in your original list of questions, right?

Tim (41:43.509)

It it was something that I had written down actually.

Charles (41:45.265)

Okay. I want you to ask me a question that isn't on your list, that's come up for you in in this conversation.

Tim (41:52.282)

I mean I feel like the biggest thing for me is, you know, you talking about your writing and this information, this isn't yours. I mean, where do you think it comes from then?

Charles (42:12.476)

Yeah, I mean I don't have an experience of channeling, you know. It's just there. It's just there.

Charles (42:26.78)

But I wonder why is it important to know that? Because what's what's important is to match that information with your your body, you know, does it resonate? or not. Like the source doesn't really matter so much. My qualifications don't matter. I would much rather like I could say, yeah, you know, I'm

You know, channeling the whatever, therefore you should believe it. or I've you know come to this through you know years of meditating in a cave, therefore you should believe it. Or I'm the you know, avatar of the whatever, and I'm a starseed and I'm this and I'm that, therefore you should believe it. Or, you know, in the old world, you know, I have a PhD from Harvard and MIT, and therefore you should believe it.

And there are things that can be learned at Harvard and MIT and in a cave and from extraterrestrials.

So it's not I'm not, you know, dismissing those sources of information. but I I don't really have any of those. So you're just gonna have to take it at face value and

Yeah, cannot invoke any any authority. So I'm just cu I I yeah, so I'm like wondering like where that question comes from. You know, why why why why why do you want to know where the information comes from?

Tim (44:02.967)

I'm just curious to know because it also has me reflecting on my conversation with Steven Pressfield and I feel like he has a similar framework when it comes to his writing, his ideas, his books, him believing that, you know, I'm not the source of this information, but there is a what he calls the muse or a higher power that is being channeled through him to almost be a conduit and a messenger f for the you know, this information.

I guess that's a that's another term. You know, do you feel like more of a a messenger of these things?

Charles (44:41.931)

yeah, I I feel like a messenger sometimes. Yeah. I don't know man, I kinda don't want to talk about myself too much. Yeah.

Tim (44:49.421)

good, yeah.

When it comes to understanding this breakdown between old story and new story, you've shared that the old story needs to completely break for the new one to arise. And when I reflect on what stories are, I'm like, okay, stories are made up of people. Do you think that it's people that are breaking within society today that are allowing for that new story to come to the surface?

Charles (45:18.905)

It's not that the stories have to break, it's that they have to be finished.

Charles (45:27.235)

They have to play out.

To their conclusion. So on the big level, the story of separation that has held civilization in these times, it seems like it's reaching its most extreme and absurd configurations. That every possible thing that human beings could have done to each other has been done. Every drama has been played again and again and again. What makes the dramas complete, though?

And I'm talking about the drama of us versus them, the drama of harm and vengeance, the drama of victim, persecutor and rescue rescuer, the drama of depression and addiction, generational trauma.

The drama of control failing its objectives and then being that must be because we need more control. So, like there's all these dramas that that perpetuate themselves. What makes them complete is when we come in, we occupy the roles in the drama, but then we change the script. So when

the the drama of

Charles (46:58.559)

A grudge of vengeance, resentment is rewritten into forgiveness and redemption, then it's done. When the drama of generational trauma is rewritten into one of healing and letting go, it's done. When the drama of us versus them and war.

Is rewritten and it's reconciliation, then it's done. So even like on a personal level, when we forgive somebody, we're kind of tying up some of the loose ends in the story of separation and completing these stories. Because a lot of us now are really ready to be done with all these all these dramas that we have been immersed in.

It's coming up in every field, you know, in relationships, you know, the drama of jealousy and control and possessiveness. the drama of of being right, the drama of like all these different dramas. We're getting sick of them. And on a societal level, like I mean, right now we're in the midst of yet another war.

Charles (48:24.83)

But

Don't see the kind of enthusiasm for the war that there was even in the Iraq war 20 25 years ago. You know. people don't really believe in it as much. People are s are and in in in

The political campaign I was involved in, the most resonant message was peace. So politics hasn't really caught up. Politics is a lagging indicator of consciousness. But I think just like on the base level, we're really sick of all this. we're done with it. And and and the story of separation that was actually a vehicle for a certain kind of development. it's really now.

Becoming obsolete. This is what is meant by the shift in consciousness. You know, that that or raising our consciousness, what does that actually mean? The question is what are we conscious of? And we are becoming conscious of things that we had not been conscious of before.

Tim (49:39.777)

When understanding the old story, what has the process been like for you of understanding the storytellers of that old story?

Charles (49:55.375)

Charles (50:01.138)

Now you gotta understand the story of separation was exhilarating three, four hundred years ago.

Galileo, Newton, Descartes, Bacon, Hume, like all those guys in this in the Enlightenment, the scientific revolution. it was so liberating to be like, yeah, it's not that God makes everything happen. There are mechanical forces, and we can control those forces, and we can become the masters of the universe. There's no limit to what human beings can do. There's no divine limit. There's no restriction. We can do anything.

All we have to do is to master these forces and harness them and put them to work and and and conquer everything. With science, you know, conquer it conceptually, with technology, conquer it materially. And we will become the masters of all. Someday we'll even be able to control our our thoughts. We'll be able to to like this is this is this is the the the dream. and it's still alive.

in certain quarters, you know, that that will be able to eliminate suffering through brain chemistry or through genetic engineering. So that was an an exhilarating story at first. And it promised again and again and again an age of perfect health, perfect leisure, perfect harmony socially, machines who do all the work. And

There would no more disease, no more death, no more crime, no more violence. Because we would control everything and not let that happen. Control human beings, control their behavior, control their transactions, predict crime, control the weeds, control the insects, remake the entire universe according to our design. That was the goal and the promise was.

Charles (52:08.788)

rapidly ascending levels of happiness. And we've kinda gotten the opposite. So that's why that story's falling apart.

Tim (52:22.189)

Do you think it's possible that that can exist for the news story in el in any way, kind of having that feeling of exhilarization exhilaration or romanticizing it in any way?

Charles (52:33.252)

Yeah. Well a any any

Charles (52:42.828)

New birth is exhilarating. you're stepping into a a new realm with broad horizons. Like I'm not saying that that those progenitors of the story of separation were bad or wrong. They were at the early phase, the the growth phase. So yeah, that in fact that's how to orient.

Like what is exhilarating, what arouses your passion. That's the story to step into. What feels like like it's I want to say new, but it's more than that. It's more of expansive and liberating and maybe also a little scary. and really feels like it allows you to become.

More of what you really are and what you really want to be. That's what I look for in a new story.

Charles (53:51.005)

And

Charles (53:57.132)

It is

Not a story of like all of these things don't happen through control anymore. And so that's that's the key difference. It doesn't mean that you never try to control anything or never exert force or never pick up a shovel, but it means that you understand that you are participating in a larger intelligence. It's not all up to us. Something wants to happen, and we can tune into it and join it. more than one thing wants to happen.

Actually, technological dystopia also wants to happen. We can join that too. We could join a story that takes control to undreamed of extremes, where AI is watching you all the time, watching your microexpressions and the inflections of your voice and predicting what you're going to do next, and then influencing what you're going to do next. With implants, I mean this control grid technology is.

it it's like an entire being that's saying to us, Hey, come here. And and how do we say yes or no to that? It's through our base level choices. Do we choose separation or do we choose reunion?

Tim (55:18.827)

What are your thoughts on people trying to use longevity and biohacking to I guess be the foundation for the new story?

Charles (55:29.193)

Yeah, there's a lot of misunderstanding there.

Charles (55:35.787)

There's a wisdom in the body that allows us to live as long as we need to live to fulfill our tasks and our natural course of life experiences. And so for a long time, that's been about 80 years, you know, which is enough time to have your childhood and your adolescence and your your ambition, you know, and to start a family, you know, dating and starting.

family and and kids and raising the kids and then grandkids you know and then and then and and maybe it ends with your great grandchild on your knee and you in your rocking chair like like you had a full course a full banquet of life that way there's no point living beyond that now today there may be reasons why people need to live longer but

Until that emerges, then no matter what we do, we're not gonna get that much past eighty, ninety years. Just like dogs live ten, fifteen years. Why? That's all you need to live a full doggy life. You know, you don't need to live more than that. So so yeah, so I think you know, I'm not getting up there, you know, now, in my late fifties.

And so you know some of the stuff comes across my my radar. and I'm like, okay, what is what is where is the motivation in me coming from if I want to like maintain my youth? Why? Is it that I want to start another family? No. Do I want to, you know, compete with the young guys for status, platform, babes, whatever else?

No, I actually I don't. I don't want to be one of the young bucks anymore who's like, you know, at the forefront and and in the in the in the contest. I'd rather mentor some of those young bucks. I'd rather let them have a turn on the stage. Otherwise, it would be a really unfair advantage if I had all of the experience and connections and and accumulated knowledge and reputational capital.

Charles (58:05.752)

And maybe financial capital in some cases. If I had all of that, and I also had the vitality and vigor of youth, mental and physical, how would young guys ever find their place? The old guard would be there forever. That's not good for civilization. That's not good for the species. Just like you know, like your cells need to be replaced sometimes. So

Yeah, so like both for on a civilizational level but also on the soul level, I think there's really good reasons why the lifespan is what it is. Now, those reasons, as I said, might be changing. In fact, I think they are. and there may be a civilizational need and a soul need for longer lifespans as the species evolves. I don't discount these longevity things out of hand, but

To access them you have to let go. You are not gonna you're not going to

You're not gonna get through these what the ego wants, which is to be up, you know, to be young again. You you have to they they are meant to facilitate further stages of the life cycle that we are not aware of yet. But they are not to extend the previous stages.

Tim (59:16.045)

Mm.

Tim (59:36.255)

It seems the way that we've come to understand longevity and the

different resources or the things that we've put in place to try to live longer, what is under that seems like separation and control.

Charles (59:52.91)

Exactly.

Tim (59:55.616)

Something something that you touched on a little bit earlier, but I'd be fascinated to learn a little bit more about it. What was it like being RFK Junior's speech writer?

Charles (01:00:08.392)

well there was a golden moment where I was like, wow, it's actually happening. Like the ideas that I've worked with for so many years now have a conduit into the mainstream. You know, maybe this guy'll be president. I mean, for a while it seemed like he might be, you know. like I just couldn't I was like I could hardly believe it that all of a sudden I'm in this conversation. and and at first it seemed there was a lot of receptivity to what I brought into the campaign.

And you know, then over time, some very serious differences of opinion arose. but more than that, it was just like it got really conventional, you know, and I kind of got squeezed out. and maybe like a small part of it is that I'm just not interested in, you know, organizational politics and you know, staking out my territory and doing all that kind of stuff. But I don't feel like that was really what was going on. You know, it was more just there's like a

An attractor, an attractor basin of a political campaign that is just not aligned with how I would do it. So I think my suggestions became more and more out of place as the campaign got more and more conventional. But there were also differences of opinion that I had with the candidate that you know were pretty heartbreaking.

And

Tim (01:01:42.455)

What do you mean but

Charles (01:01:42.592)

Yeah. So so I'll say one more thing though, like like that golden moment, which lasted quite a few months, where I'm like, wow, I'm really on a team and this is really happening. I feel like that was kind of a promise of maybe my a role that I can have. you know, because I as a writer, you know, like you're kind of on your own a lot. And I I've now become more involved.

in collaborations where I'm not, you know, the guy out in front. That was a good thing for me in the campaign, not to be the guy out in front. Like, 'cause as a as a so-called thought leader, you know, you you you are kind of like in the back of your mind, you're like, okay, I gotta push my brand, you know, I've got to get a bigger audience, you know. I never really felt comfortable with doing all those things and I did a lot of them really badly. Like

know self promotion on social social media and things like that, but like it's still kind of operating in the back. And so being on a on a campaign really was a good practice in this is not about me. This is not about me. And and that I think kind of prepared me for other ventures where it's not about me. You know, where I'm not going to get the recognition.

Tim (01:03:08.589)

Hm. What do you mean by it became conventional?

Charles (01:03:15.056)

you know, just like the media strategy and the you know, like what a candidate does.

Tim (01:03:25.857)

Was it challenging at all, you know, speaking of going back to those words of control and power, was it challenging at all for you to understand like that was the end goal or did the team aspect of it sort of overpower that?

Charles (01:03:43.273)

I like to be on a team.

Charles (01:03:48.849)

I thought it was really important how the campaign was run and what kind of rhetoric was used. And I influenced it at least some, especially more the beginning, that if you're speaking from love and being generous to your opponents and assuming the best, then and broadcasting a unity message that even if you lose, those things still win. Like that you still put that into.

public awareness. And so you can't lose if that's what your goal is. If your goal isn't if winning the election is your secondary goal and your real goal is to change the way that the world works, then you cannot lose.

Tim (01:04:37.015)

Hmm. Yeah, winning the election is the byproduct.

Charles (01:04:41.191)

Right. Right. That was that was what I

brought into the conversation. and you know, I don't want to make it like an all or nothing thing like they ignored it or something like that. I think that there was some, you know, it had an influence. But I definitely

Charles (01:05:15.197)

I think that there was a a potentiality that was not fulfilled. Let's put it that way.

Tim (01:05:22.775)

Going to that notion of you know, you feeling like you were on a team for the first time and writing can kind of be a a solo isolating act, I mean, how have you gone about navigating that, I guess, of understanding this whole philosophy behind inner being, but also feeling a separation when, you know, sharing those ideas and, you know, the way that you've been called to serve the world?

Charles (01:05:50.299)

Well that's why I like doing public speaking. Yeah. Which could be, you know, to a a big audience, but it could just be to one person. I guess that's not public, but yeah. I mean for me I can't just I don't get the feedback when I'm when I'm writing. So I need to be out there also and and

Charles (01:06:13.624)

Yeah, be in the world, know who I'm writing to, know who I'm speaking to.

Tim (01:06:22.135)

How do you go what does your writing process look like then from the standpoint of synthesiz synthesizing ideas to creating a finished product?

Charles (01:06:35.182)

My writing process is that I tune in to the reader. and it's like I'm actually writing to somebody. Sometimes it's actually a specific person, someone I know. But it could be someone I don't know. But I like they become present for me. or maybe it's a signature of my imagination, but my experience is that I'm writing to somebody. It's personal.

Tim (01:07:04.909)

Are there any ideas that you've been exploring lately that you haven't had many opportunities to talk about?

Charles (01:07:14.904)

Yeah, it's not so much opportunities to talk about it. Well, I guess we could say that the opportunity is that the idea only comes forth when it's drawn by the right listening.

Which could be indicated by a certain question or just even like a facial expression. So this is part of like it's not my these aren't my ideas. They sometimes appear in me as if by magic in the presence of a certain need, of a certain listening. And that's why, yeah, like

And the the more sincere and vulnerable the question, the more clear and powerful the information is.

But it's not like I have that information already. It becomes available through the sincerity of the question. Or of the need. Maybe maybe there isn't a question.

Tim (01:08:17.335)

Is there anything that comes top of mind that feels available to you right now?

Charles (01:08:23.168)

Charles (01:08:44.812)

Well

Charles (01:08:53.386)

I feel a lot of appreciation for your humility and sincerity and

Charles (01:09:10.338)

I guess kind of the word for it is discretion. the care with which you choose when when to speak and what to say and what not to say. and the like genuine

Charles (01:09:29.181)

I mean there's some some timidity there, but there's also just more than that, there's just a lot of love there and concern for others, care for others. and that yeah, and I appreciate I appreciate that that kind of gentleness and and care that

Charles (01:09:57.418)

that infuses your your speaking and your presence and

Charles (01:10:23.018)

Yeah, and and I would urge you to trust that even more than you do.

Tim (01:10:33.653)

I really appreciate those sentiments. And I think that's a beautiful place to stop the conversation. Charles, it's been great speaking with you. Any final thoughts you would like to share or just anywhere you'd like to send people to learn more about you or work?

Charles (01:10:54.608)

No, I I I like I don't have any programs or like I mean I have a website which is easy to find, but I'm not like steering people I'm like so done with the you know, thought leader thing.

Charles (01:11:14.516)

But yeah, there's you can find stuff on the internet. But yeah, there's nothing I am working on a book, but it's gonna take a while.

Tim (01:11:26.701)

Well then that's a great little teaser to leave people with. And yeah, I mean you've done some incredible writing. it's spoken to me a lot and I know it's spoken to lot of other people. So just grateful for the opportunity to speak with you here today.

Charles (01:11:40.702)

Thank you, Tim. I I enjoyed it as well.