The Outworker
The relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect. These conversations will hopefully allow you to develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#016 - James Francis - Creating Generational Well-Being
James Francis, mental health advocate and author of the book, There's Coffee In The Fridge, opens up about his journey through depression, suicide attempts, and ultimately healing. James shares his experiences in psychiatric care, the importance of honesty in recovery, and how he broke generational cycles of pain. We explore the distinction between isolation and solitude, the therapeutic value of creativity, and the impact of running on mental health. James also offers great insights on ancestral healing and creating a legacy of emotional well-being for future generations in his family.
Timestamps:
01:15 Processing Your Story Internally
02:15 Avoiding the Dilution of Inner Work
13:24 The Impact of Athletics on Mental Health
16:15 Reflecting on Near-Death Experiences
26:24 Breaking the Habit of Seeking External Validation
28:06 Making The Decision To Commit Suicide
33:36 Letting Go and Surrendering
38:31 The Therapeutic Value of Arts and Crafts
51:56 From Running Away to Running With Yourself
54:32 The Daunting Process of Coming Off Medication
57:12 Creating a Generational Legacy of Well-Being
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This episode contains discussions of suicide, depression, and anxiety. If you or someone you know is struggling with mental health issues or having thoughts of suicide, please reach out for help. In the US, you can call or text 988 for the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. Remember, you're not alone, and support is available. Listener discretion is advised.
What’s up Outworkers. James Francis, mental health advocate and author of There's Coffee In The Fridge, opens up about his journey through depression, suicide attempts, and ultimately healing. James shares his experiences in psychiatric care, the importance of honesty in recovery, and how he broke generational cycles of pain. We explore the distinction between isolation and solitude, the therapeutic value of creativity, and the impact of running on mental health. James also offers great insights on ancestral healing and creating a legacy of emotional well-being for future generations in his family.
Tim (00:03.662)
Jim, welcome to the Outworker.
Tim (00:09.006)
I'm a believer that we all have a story that the world can benefit from hearing. And the more that that story is based around some type of challenge we face, the more beneficial it can be. But I'm also a believer that you need to allow yourself the time to process that story for yourself internally before you actually share that story with anyone.
And you have this great quote in your book that I think sums up this idea perfectly. You say it is important to understand the power in maintaining personal control over your inner work in the form of creative ideas. The work that must be done is inner work. You would dilute the power of this inner work if you shared it with the world before it is time. For you,
How did you know it was time to share your story and experiences with depression and suicide?
James Francis (01:14.225)
and you just hit on something that I think is really important that a lot of people don't think about and that is that concept of diluting what's in your heart something that you've identified that's really important to you.
And the reason for that, the reason for not wanting to dilute it is, is that other people are going to hit you with, and I don't mean hit in like in the fiscal sense, but come at you with their own opinion. Right. And you have to be completely grounded in understanding that what you are believing is what's true for you and your heart. And if somebody comes at you with their opinion, their baggage, their judgment, whatever that is, it causes you to question it. And then you say,
Well shit, maybe that's not really what I'm thinking about right so for me I Spent some time in the hospital You know due to a suicide attempt and then Fast forward about five years. I had been invited to speak to a group of people in Fairfield, Connecticut right down the road here
And I know about 100 people in the room and I had not told my story yet to that point. So this is about 2010, right? And I was invited by a friend who runs a group and I went in and talked to a bunch of people just like me, you know, and I basically walked through the story that's in the book and I came out of that.
I went into that feeling very positive, very focused, excited. I came out after having told my story and everybody was waiting for me in the parking lot. And it scared the crap out of me. Like I was like, wait a second, I'm not the poster child for anything. I don't want to be anybody's role model. I'm still trying to figure this out. Right? So that was five years in doing a tremendous amount of work, self analysis and trying to understand who I am and why.
James Francis (03:11.409)
It wasn't another for another, I'd say eight years where I started to feel really comfortable, like, okay, I've been living this for a long time and now it's time. And it just hit me. It was like, okay, this is part of my story. It's part of who I am. And now I'm okay with sharing that there isn't anything that anyone could say to me at that point in time. And today too, that would sway me from what I've been living and what I believe because I've been doing it for so long and I'm so comfortable in my existence.
I think that that's the best way I could describe it. So it was just sort of a knowing that I've been doing this a long time. I've been living this way a long time. I'm very comfortable with it and it feels good, you know, and so that's kind of the thing that I help people talk through in terms of this concept of dilution and especially when it's a creative when so for me, you know, like you I was an athlete, I was trained to do specific things in a specific sport around specific rules.
Right when you start to have creative ideas and you're not a creative person or you haven't seen yourself as a creative person You're pretty vulnerable to outside influence, right? And so for me, I wanted to hold on to that I want I want to hold on to that that ability to sit sit in my creation and know in every fiber of my being that what I've created is something I'm comfortable with and Not having somebody sort of inject their own shit into it was the reason for that
Tim (04:41.358)
Yeah, I think that also gets into another idea that you talk about. And I heard you say it in a different interview that you did getting into the mindset mindset with your book is how you wanted to teach, but you didn't want to preach. And it gets into the relationship between, Hey, is this a self -help book or is this a story and yours is grounded in your own personal experiences and stories. And I think that's what people really connect with. And it's not just explaining ideas that.
are just merely psychological or very educational, but it's stuff that you've lived. And I know that isolation is one of your main symptoms of depression and anxiety and something that you would use to punish yourself. And something that I'm always fascinated about is the relationship between isolation and solitude because
I'm a big believer that to have a very good relationship with yourself and doing that internal work alone time is necessary for that. And it allows you to be your most authentic self and allows you to be creative and open yourself up to different ideas and thoughts that you have. I'm curious to know what do you see as the difference between isolation and solitude?
James Francis (06:09.521)
and
This is another great point. And there is there is some nuance to it, right? There's a fine line between aloneness and loneliness. Same thing, right? Isolation, solitude, I see it as for me, if I am wanting solitude, I am looking for sort of a meaningful connection to myself, whether it's a thought, or an exercise or some time where I'm now saying, this is me time, right? That's very
different than me saying, I don't want to be around anybody. I need to be alone, right? That that is a very different energy. It's a very different intention. And one is destructive and the other one is is nurturing. And so that's really what it is. And I identified that way. Like I will, like tonight, I'm going to go home and we were just talking about this, I, you know, I've got to commute home, I'm going to drive an hour to get home. When I get home, I'm going down to the beach to create some solitude for myself to sit by the water.
maybe go for a run, meditate. Now I've invited my wife to come with me, right? So I will have that connection if she wants to, right? I'll do my thing, she'll do her thing and then we'll join together. That in and of itself is an action that creates a connection even though there is some solitude around it. So it really is the healthy, nurturing sort of self -care thing as opposed to I can't deal with the world right now.
So that to me is sort of the difference.
Tim (07:42.318)
I like that idea of almost like being in solitude together, like inviting somebody to go somewhere and all right, like let's go on our separate paths at this place and then join back together. One specific moment when you were in isolation, which set off your entire journey with depression and suicidal thoughts, talk to me about your experience in your family boat when you skipped school as a young kid.
James Francis (08:10.833)
Yeah.
So that's really where I go back. And the reason for going back is not to punish or blame or identify somebody else that did something that causes me to be the way I am, right? The reason to go back is to understand why I am who I am, right? The things that are grounded in the thoughts that I lived. And that day that I talk about in that story is the first time I really thought about suicide. And,
creating this, you know, again, loneliness that was pure isolation, right? It didn't start out that way. But ultimately, that's what that day was for me. And it was a day where I realized, and I started the habit of isolation on that day, because I realized, nobody really gave a shit what I was doing. Nobody cared where I was. I was 12 years old. I cut school. I'm in the back of this beaten up boat that's in my backyard where I grew up on Long Island. And
really nobody knew that I was there. And it was a wrong thing to do, right? I had responsibilities, I had made a commitment to my mom that I was gonna go to school and I didn't. And so that's all wrapped up in this constant flow of negativity around isolation. And so that day, in particular, I really felt that experience of punishment. Like,
I did not deserve to be around other people. That was where it started. And it was a habit that continued for many years, for decades after that. And that is an experience that is sort of the embryo of depression for me. Because it then fed this belief that nobody really cared. Nobody knew, and nobody ever reacted to it. Nobody ever knew where I was. Nobody even thought to find out, right? And so, yeah, that's...
James Francis (10:07.075)
That's where it started. That's where the isolation comfort and comfort is a hard word around isolation, but it becomes sort of this wet blanket that you put on yourself and eventually that gets warm, you know, but it's wet, it's disgusting, it's smells and all these things around that. But that becomes what you know. And that becomes the comfort blanket that you continue, that I continue to use throughout, you know, the next 25, 30 years.
Tim (10:35.726)
How do you think you would have been able to navigate everything, especially as a young kid and everything that you were feeling, if you knew at the time that your mom was also a person who had dealt with anxiety and depression throughout her entire life?
James Francis (10:54.897)
think that if I had known that at that point and could have processed it that I probably would have killed myself because thinking about this person that loved me and I knew she loved me and I loved her
living with that level of pain and then as a kid thinking about, my God, is this what life is? Like, I don't want to live this way, you know? And not having the tools or the language and the understanding around the ability for me to say to my mom, hey, can you help me through this, right? Maybe we can help each other or whatever that looks like. I think that would have created some pretty serious devastation for me based on what I was feeling at the time.
Tim (11:40.238)
Something that did help you in your journey and something that's a massive part of your identity is that you were a great lacrosse player. How did that play a role in navigating everything as a kid and into college?
James Francis (11:53.457)
Yeah, it gave me a purpose, right? It gave me something to look forward to, something that I was completely engaged in, something that I, and sports did this in general. I was a very good athlete from a very young age. And I grew up in a time when one kid got a trophy, right? And I was the kid that got the trophy. And it was a good thing because it really gave me something to look forward to. It gave me, like I said, it gave me a purpose. It gave me the energy to want to keep going. And it was fleeting, right?
right? Because you know, I played basketball, I played baseball, I played hockey, whatever.
those moments were a couple of hours a week, right? But that was something that allowed me to keep moving forward. As I got older and I got into high school playing lacrosse and focusing on that sport, and then getting recruited to play in college and then playing in college, that really was what I was living for. And if I didn't have that, I probably wouldn't have survived, honestly. And there were so many positive things coming into my life as a result of that experience as a high level athlete, that it allowed me, it gave me the opportunity,
opportunity to really focus on something that wanted me to stay, you know. And then I met my future wife in college, which was tied into that, right, because I was an athlete and I was popular on campus and whatever. That was all tied together. And so I think really in a lot of ways that it allowed, it saved my life.
Tim (13:19.79)
I mean, in a paradoxical way, do you think that your depression and anxiety almost made you a better lacrosse player than you would have been if you weren't dealing with these things?
James Francis (13:32.273)
It's a good question. I don't know about depression, anxiety for sure. Because as an anxious person, as a naturally anxious person, I focus on, I tend to focus on details in certain situations. So in a high profile, high pressure athletic event, my brain was always running at a thousand miles an hour at every single detail, right? And stressing over every single detail about what was going on on the field in a specific play. And so yeah, that having that detail,
detail oriented focus was really helpful. And so I do think that anxiety helped me. I think in terms of depression, I think it probably would have been more effective as an athlete because my training regimen would have been more consistent and much more committed than it probably would have been because there were days when I was like, man, I just I can't get out of bed, you know, or I don't want to do this. But but overall, I think the anxiety for sure helped.
Tim (14:33.134)
So you've had some interesting physically dangerous experiences that haven't involved, you know, depression or suicidal thoughts that you describe in your book. One of them in January, 1982, you were physically assaulted by four guys at gunpoint and got beaten up pretty bad. And in 1984, you were in a really bad car accident in Stanford, New York.
And then there was another moment that you describe in your book where you were at knife point in New York city after you're getting money from an ATM. So like I said, you had three non -suicidal close to death experiences, but obviously you didn't die throughout your entire journey. Did you ever reflect back on these moments where you could have died and were like, you thought to yourself, you know what, like I'm not supposed to die. Like,
I'm supposed to be living.
James Francis (15:32.977)
Yeah.
You know, it's funny, I do now, like I get that today, right after going through all the work that I went through. The irony is that I used to be so angry, thinking back on those events, because those are situations where I could have died, and it would have ended me, right? It would have ended the pain that I was suffering from. And so I used to look at it and with some disappointment. And it's really hard to say, but I really was disappointed that I didn't die in those
situations. And the one situation that you mentioned where I got held at knife point, I actually went back to find this guy. And that was again, putting myself in further danger to try to create some sort of an additional problem for me. You know what I mean? So yeah, I mean, it's a it's a phenomenal question line. I can look back now and say, Yeah, this was what my journey was supposed to be. I'm supposed to be here to help people so that others don't have to go through
what I went through. Maybe they can hear, maybe my story will resonate and they'll hear some of themselves and what I'm outlining and help them get through it a lot sooner than I was able to.
Tim (16:46.542)
Your definition for suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems. When did you first come to that understanding of that?
James Francis (16:57.521)
I was in the hospital right down the road here in New Canaan, Connecticut, and I was in a group session, group therapy session, and they brought in...
half a dozen or so people who were either the children of people who had suicided, spouses of people who had suicided. I think there was a brother of someone that had suicided and a parent of a child who had suicided.
And that was like getting punched in the face because here are these people now on the other side of this experience, right? In the relationship with the people that were in their life that had committed suicide, telling me that they still, and one guy was in his 60s and you know, this person had suicide of like 40 years prior to that.
He still wasn't over it. He didn't have the questions answered that he needed quite. He needed an answer. He didn't understand. He couldn't get his head around it. And in that moment, I realized, holy shit, you know, this, this was a permanent situation. Death is the end. And it's not just the end for that individual. It's the end for every single person in that person's life and those that would come after. And so that's when it hit me. I didn't really, wasn't able to put it into words, the way that I describe it in the book until probably two or three years later.
later, but really that's when it hit me and it really had such a dramatic impact on me that I thought, man, I can't believe that I wanted to do this.
Tim (18:30.83)
So taking things back to your college years actually, and like you mentioned, you met your wife, Chris, at Adelphi. And you said that you didn't have a depressive state for about five years after meeting her. What did those five years feel like?
James Francis (18:49.649)
just elation and optimism and planning for the future and thinking about like getting up every day and feeling positive and feeling that sense of joy. I think that's really the best way to describe it. The thing that's important about that for me and for others is,
Eventually, and this is why I talk about the trauma and go backwards in the book, eventually that catches up to you, right? It's sort of fleeting. In my case, it was five years, give or take. That's a fleeting time when you're looking at a full life, right? And so it's not sustainable unless you go back and figure out what it is that causes you to suffer from depression to begin with. So I would say that it was complete joy, elation, optimism, and then,
then the wheels came off the bus to a certain extent.
Tim (19:44.942)
So getting into your professional life and your career, and obviously like many people know when it comes to mental health and struggling with depression or anxiety, it can be very vulnerable or uncomfortable to talk about. But I also think something that is right up there with that and doesn't get talked about a lot, but you talk a lot about it in your book is.
people being in an unfulfilling career or having a job that just doesn't feel like them and they don't feel like they're on the right path. And that I think that can also be very challenging to talk to people about. When did you realize that the professional life you had built for yourself didn't feel like it was aligned with who you authentically were?
James Francis (20:40.112)
I didn't have the language for...
describe it the way that you just did until after I had gone through some of the work that I've gone through. I think I realized that I was in the wrong place probably in my mid -20s. So I was probably working at that point for three or four years into my job when I should have hit like if I could go back right if you said go back right now to one point in time in your career where you would have made a change I probably would have done it when I was 25.
or 26 years old. So two or three years into my career, and, you know, as I describe it in the book, I was chasing money. I had grown up pretty, pretty poor, not, you know, we weren't poor, but we had everything we needed. And, but
I was chasing $100 ,000. Like that was the magic number in the eighties, you know, go make six figures. But at that point in time, I would have immediately pivoted if I had understood what you just said, right? Because I knew that something inside of me wasn't right. And I just couldn't figure it out. But you know, you, you, you chase material things. And then next thing you know, you're having a child. And so now there's more than just you in, in consideration, and then you're having another trial, then things just sort of snowball.
snowball. But it wasn't until a couple of years after my hospitalization where I really started to understand, you know, you've spent the last 20 years doing things that you don't want to do that are not in harmony with who you are. But yeah, mid 20s is probably when I would have done it. And what I and I coached a lot of people I got back into the business world. Many years after my hospitalization and made a conscious point of going into the boardroom.
James Francis (22:30.371)
boardroom, right, running companies and being who I am, regardless of where I am or who I'm with, not changing. There's no separation between business and personal. And I've coached a lot of people who have worked for me that they're in their own job. They should not be here, right? I had somebody that worked with me in Manhattan, you know, type A personality, got a, got a master's from Columbia, you know, everything you could ever want. And, and we sat down one day,
and she was crying and I just said you know you're not in the right place you're just not and now and she left she moved to Maine and you know she's living this amazing fulfilling life but it wasn't gonna happen in Manhattan.
And so I think that it's hard, it's a hard thing to do. It's a hard thing to say, I am not going to follow the norm or whatever the norm that people think is. But you cannot live happily and in peace without doing that.
Tim (23:31.022)
There's a great quote that you have in your book about this. The more that you do that is not you, the more you become in touch with who you are not. And before long you cease to exist. The person that you are living is out in the world. It is the not you. And the more that person exists, the harder it is to function as yourself. And this is something that I definitely resonate a lot with, you know, just getting into my life a little.
When I got out of college, I started working for a commercial real estate company in New York city and built a lot of great skills, met a lot of great people, learned a lot. But pretty quickly, I think I learned that I was like, this is just not who I am. Like this is not, it's not just like the work. It's like, this is not who I am as a person. And I think it gets into this relationship between.
Do you enjoy the job or do you enjoy the persona of the job? Where it becomes very easy if you're talking with somebody and they're like, what do you do? And you're like, I work in commercial real estate. It's like, like, wow, incredible. It's like you enjoy that persona and the person that you are putting on display when you're having those conversations rather than the day to day actually living that life.
James Francis (24:58.481)
It's, it's a very good point. And that is your ego, right? You're feeding your ego and you know, your ego needs to learn that it's an employee and not the CEO. It's really hard to break that habit and it is habit and but it's a, it's a very powerful, you know, I work with, I run a consulting firm with some business partners. They all know my story. They all know who I am and what I'm about.
That doesn't mean that they're involved, right? They're all struggling doing their own thing. And you can see the ego happening in front of you in business conversations. And you know that it's not serving them and that they would be better served if they lived in a different way. That's not my issue, right? That's their issue. But it is a very interesting thing to watch. And so for me, I had to break. I had to break in order to really have license, to give myself license to let go.
And you know, my son is 26 years old and he's a creative, he's an artist and he has followed his passion making very little money initially out of the gate, right? And saying, my friends are making all this money, they're living in big cities, he lives in Sweden and he's like, I have no money, I can't go out, I can't do anything and I'm like, dude, just keep doing what you're doing. You need to follow who you are.
But I can watch the struggle and that's really hard to do. It's hard to say, I am not gonna do this. I am not gonna succumb to the fact that I need to have a new car or I need to have a big house or all the bullshit that goes along with that. And that's really difficult. It's not an easy thing to do.
Tim (26:43.118)
Walk me through May 6th, 2005.
James Francis (26:47.589)
So on May 5th of 2005, that night I got home and I said to my wife, listen, I'm suffering from pretty severe depression right now.
She had always known that I had come in and out of depressive episodes, but this one was really bad. And in that conversation, I didn't say to her, I'm going to take my own life, but I thought about, I said to her, I'm thinking about suicide. Like it's a thought that's crossed my mind, right?
So in my head, I've now said to her, I'm leaving, even though that's not what I did. On the morning of May 6th, I went to my office, which is in downtown New Haven, overlooking, it was in the old bank of New Haven building, really cool.
wooden framed offices, just high ceilings, amazing. And I sat in my office, nine o 'clock in the morning on May 6th, just staring out the window and just thinking about how am I gonna do this? How am I gonna kill myself? And I decided definitively that I was done. And the main reason for, there were two reasons why I wanted to commit suicide. One was I had become really tired and exhausted of living with the pain of depression, because it is a very painful experience.
It's very isolating and you just feel like there's no hope, right? So that five years I had in college where I was living this joy, it was gone. I just hadn't experienced it in a long time.
James Francis (28:23.761)
The second reason is I was firmly of the belief that the people in my life would be better off if I wasn't here, right? Especially my kids. I mean, I was scared to death that I was going to pass on this dysfunction to my children. And so those are the two main reasons. So I'm sitting in my office. I'm like, shit, how am I going to do this? I'm just going to jump out the window. Right. And, and I sat there for hours just saying to myself, jump, don't jump, don't jump, don't jump, jump, and going back and forth phone to ring.
off the hook, my door is closed, nobody's bothering me, I am just alone in those thoughts, in that pressure and that buildup. And I got to, I don't know, about two or three o 'clock in the afternoon and I decided to leave. I was going to get in my car and I was just going to drive my car off the road.
and that was ultimately what my plan was. And I had another pressure point for me during that day was running a lacrosse clinic at five o 'clock in the afternoon. There was gonna be a hundred kids, which would normally bring me a lot of joy, but I did not wanna subject them to me. And so I thought, this is the perfect pivot point. Let me get in my car and drive my car off the road.
And so I did that. I got my car.
My sister lived in Princeton. She was a dean at Princeton University and she hadn't been to my house for a couple of years. And my kids were participating in a craft fair four o 'clock in the afternoon on that day. And my sister was coming to surprise them at this craft fair. And so now I'm in the car. I'm driving up 95 between New Haven and where I live in Madison, Connecticut. And I'm like,
James Francis (30:18.819)
I realized that I didn't say goodbye to my wife, that I didn't tell her that I was gonna kill myself. And so I called her on the phone. And this is before smartphones and so typically cell phones, she never answered her phone. But I called her three o 'clock, she answered the phone and I just said, hey, I'm leaving. And I said, I'm gonna.
kill myself, I'm bad enough. And you can imagine, right, she's in our kitchen, she's got three kids running around. Her husband's on the other end of the line saying, look, I am going to kill myself. At the same time that I was on the phone with her, my sister called her. And she said, Jim is suicidal. He's in his car. He's going to drive off the road. Where she said, my sister said, I'm on 95 in Connecticut. And
I just got to chill just now telling the story again. And she said, my God, he's he's in front of you, right? He's like a mile in front of you. So they put two and two together, they ended up getting me off the road and in Guilford. And my sister literally as I parked the car at the parking right in Guilford, she was pulling into the parking lot. And
and took me to Yale Psych. And so that's where the story kind of goes from there. But.
They didn't leave me at Yale Psych. My wife didn't want to leave me there. It was kind of a rough night on a Friday. And so she took me home. She had to sign an indemnification saying that she would take liability for anything that I did to anybody or myself. And they drugged me. And I spent three or four days in bed until they could get me bedded at Silver Hill in New Canaan.
Tim (32:09.358)
Yep. So then you go into that psychiatric psychiatric hospital and the doctor tells you in that hospital, the process is a difficult process and you have to be willing to let go and be of the process. And you would think that the goal or the mindset is always needing to be in control, being in control of all the factors. In what ways did you actually have to just give up complete control and surrender to the process?
James Francis (32:39.153)
in every possible way. So when you're an addict or you're suffering from depression or you're an alcoholic, whatever, those things all have sort of the same components and you hit the nail on the head. Control is the main one, right? I never wanted anybody to ever see me who I actually was in a depressive state. and so I was very good at controlling every factor, right? And anxiety does allow you, help you to do that as well.
And when I mean let go in every possible way, you have to let go in every possible way, right? You walk into this facility and it's an acute care facility, no shoelaces, no belt. You're allowed two or three items, right? And everything is monitored. I mean everything. You have no free time. You are not allowed to be alone.
Your medication is timed. So you're taking medication at specific times. You have group therapy at specific times. You have individual therapy. You are not in control of anything, literally nothing. That was really hard. And you know, it took a week before I started to really settle down. I mean, they put me on some drugs that allowed them to sleep right away, which was hugely helpful. But yeah, no, you got to let go. I mean, that is it. And it's
It's not just the reality of the moment in the hospital where you're letting go of everything that's happening in the hospital. It's also the fact that I just walked away from my business. I told my wife I wanted to die. I told my kids are like, where's dad? He's not here. He's sick. I got a hundred people at a lacrosse field waiting for me. My wife had to call them and say, look, find somebody else to coach. So, I mean, I basically threw my hands up and said, I'm done. I'm leaving this world. And so even though I didn't end my life,
life, I did leave the life that I was living for sure, 100%.
Tim (34:32.334)
One of the benefits that you talk about being in the psychiatric hospital is that it allowed you to step out of this, as you describe it, thick neoprene suit and start to be the real you. Do you think we all struggle with that to a certain extent, not even just talking about people with anxiety or depression, but just all of us? Do you think we all have some type of suit that we're living within that we can step out of?
James Francis (35:02.801)
It's an interesting concept, this thing that I talk about, because it's not just one suit, right? As you start to dig in and you dig into layers and you go deeper and deeper and deeper, you realize that you can unzip a hundred suits as you go deeper into the process. But I have a year and a half old granddaughter, right? And so watching her in her life right now, right? She's a sponge. She's soaking everything up and she is who she is, right?
but she's going to be socialized into some rub neoprene suit over the next three, four or five years. I mean, it's, it's, I think it's almost impossible to avoid. And it really becomes a matter of being conscious of it and then saying, okay, I, there are some situations where I might want to wear the suit, but if you're consciously aware of it, that's a totally different experience. Right. And so we've all lived this, my family and I have all lived this. So this, this child has a phenomenal chance.
right, to understand that because her parents understand it, my kids understand it. But I agree with you. I think I do think we all have that suit, you know, I mean, look at you, you, you, you were working in real estate after the two conversations we've had, I can't imagine you doing that. You know what I mean?
Tim (36:22.254)
Yeah, well I appreciate you saying that.
James Francis (36:24.369)
Well, that's crazy, right? But that's what you that's the suit you decided to put on and you know, fortunately, you know, it didn't fit.
Tim (36:33.326)
Yeah. And I think going back to what you were saying about the, the woman that went to Columbia, got her masters and then moved to Maine. I feel like I was the same way or I am the same way. I'm a very type a driven motivational person. So I had all the tangible IQ skills for somebody who could be very successful within real estate. But I also know about myself that there's this very
EQ hungry creative side of me that wasn't being fulfilled with that profession and probably was never going to be so I knew that I needed to get out and going deeper into the creative side and also tying in the childlike aspect to it. Talk to me about the therapeutic feeling of doing arts and crafts when you were in the hospital.
James Francis (37:29.457)
It's an interesting thing to sit in a room with 24 people that are from...
probably 22, 23 years old to I think the oldest woman from Greenwich, she's actually from Greenwich, was like 72, right? So 24 people in that age spectrum, sitting around a table with glue and glue sticks and cups and ice cream sticks and all this stuff that you do when you make, when you do arts and crafts in kindergarten, right? And I remember walking into that room and thinking, holy shit, man, my life is over. I can't even believe that this is
me, right? And I have to say, about half an hour into this exercise of putting together this macaroni necklace that I made the first day, it was amazing. It was so fulfilling. And like people were talking, but not you know, nothing deep, just whatever, getting to know each other. But it was time so well spent. And and I
I still do arts and crafts. We have these coloring books and things that we'll sit around the kitchen table sometimes or we'll do puzzles.
That is the most quality time from a mindfulness practice exercise that you could ever do. And so, you know, again, it's the letting go, right? It's the letting go and being of the process. And I think that's why it was so valuable. It was like, wow, this is really amazing. You can spend an hour and a half doing this and not even thinking about anything else. I mean, what could be better than that?
Tim (39:09.39)
Yeah, I think it's very healing and it's a freeing feeling to create something, literally create something, whether it's doing arts and crafts, journaling, creating a podcast. You know, our society has become just so consumption focused, especially when it comes to social media. But if you're able to create something like you did with a book or something just as simple as doing arts and crafts, it re -engages that child within you.
And like I said, it's very freeing. There's a moment that you describe with your wife, Chris, when you leave the psychiatric hospital and it's the decision of if you're going to be honest with everyone and tell everyone where you truly were or if you were going to cover this up and say that.
you were on a business trip or something and you guys decided that you were going to be 100 % honest with everyone. What do you think the trajectory of your healing journey would have been if you tried to cover it up?
James Francis (40:19.633)
I think I probably would have slipped back into some level of depression, for sure.
the trajectory that it put me on was exponentially better than it would have been. And the reason is acceptance and forgiveness of yourself, right? You've got to be able to accept who you are. And in order for you to accept who you are, you just have to be yourself in every situation. And if you're not, it feels like you're just full of shit. And so that was the story.
one decision that we made in a long line of decisions over a couple of years that was really critically important. And I think, you know, I talk about this in the book, but forgiveness, forgiving yourself takes a long time, but letting go and being honest has to happen as soon as possible. And so that's, I think, one of the most important things that we could have done.
And it's interesting because you built this life, right? You built this whole existence of career and family and the whole nine yards and you've got all these friends, right? You've got the social group. We had a lot of people that we knew. I live in a small town. I ran a lacrosse program. My wife ran the arts barn and we knew a lot of people.
the people that left our lives as a result of this event, because we were honest, were clearly not meant to be there, right? And I'm not saying that they were toxic. I mean, I was toxic. I know this, but it was either too close to home. It was too much. Maybe they were toxic. I don't know. And so people leave your life. But the interesting thing is the people that come into your life as a result of that honesty is just so fulfilling. It's amazing. You know, I mean, my wife and I had a conversation.
James Francis (42:13.267)
at some point early on in this process and we were talking about people, not specific people, just in general. And, you know, she would say to me, you know, how could you have lived so dishonestly? Like, how could you have lived this toxic life? And I said, you know, honestly, I don't know anybody that I work with that isn't toxic.
And she was like, that can't be true. And I said, I'm telling you. And I'm just talking about men, right? Because those are the people that I mostly had relationships with at work. And I'd say, yeah, I don't know any good men. And after a period of time, to my point, those guys left my life. They were not in my life anymore. And then all of a sudden, these good men started coming into my life. And I was like, yeah, you know what? There are really good men out there. I just wasn't one of them. So I didn't experience it.
Tim (43:05.646)
Yeah, I'm a big believer that if you're going to be a fake false version of yourself, that's exactly what you're going to attract as well. And if you're going to be a true version of yourself, you're much more likely to attract that getting into your experiences with therapy and meditation and something that I think is really interesting that you say is that you took an athlete mentality to therapy and meditation.
How much of your experiences with therapy felt like a physically demanding experience as much as it was mental and emotional?
James Francis (43:45.937)
I think a lot of it, it can be exhausting. And when you drill into a specific topic set over maybe two or three therapy sessions, and you dig deeper and you dig deeper, it can beat the crap out of you. Like, like you feel like you ran a marathon, you know, you did, you didn't move, right? You were in the same place for an hour, but you're pouring out these emotions and you're tapping into things that you don't typically tap into, right? I talk about these emotional
muscles, right? If I if I walked into the gym, I haven't worked out with weights in three weeks. I walked into the gym tomorrow and started lifting throwing up some big weights. I'd be a mess, right? I might hurt myself or I'd certainly be sore. It's the same thing with emotional muscles. It is physically exhausting. And I think I kind of enjoyed it because it reminded me of what it was like, you know, in early sessions on lacrosse on lacrosse field or on the football field or whatever, where you're tired, but you're
you know you're going to get a benefit from that. And sometimes you don't see that benefit right away. It can take a month, it can take a year, but it is a physically exhausting process. It's obviously emotionally exhausting too, but it is physically exhausting. And so I tell people all the time, you have to be gentle with yourself, right? You're not going to just walk out of a therapy situation or over a multiple sessions and just like nothing ever happened. It's going to change you for sure.
and taking a step back and realizing that letting go is just as important as anything else is a really important gift for yourself.
Tim (45:26.382)
Something that I'm interested to hear you talk about the process of how you mentally processed it is that you talk about in your book that your grandfather, James Francis Rainier was one of the meanest people you've ever met. And I know you also had a challenging experience and relationship with your father who was also named James Francis Rainier. Your name is also James Francis and
You say in your book that your name is something that you haven't been comfortable with for many years. And obviously when it comes to depression, anxiety and suicide, those aren't things that you are. Those are things that you experience and things that you've dealt with with something like a name though, which is our strongest measure of identity. How have you managed these?
feelings with your name over the years.
James Francis (46:28.817)
When I initially was angry and holding on to this sort of feeling that I got screwed, right, because my grandfather was mean, my dad and I didn't have a good relationship and all of these things. And I identified that with my name and I was like, you know what, I'm not comfortable with this name at all. It used to cause me a lot of anger.
I realized at some point after going through some therapy that and going through forgiveness exercises, right? And just really forgiving people that came before me and understanding that they did the best they could with the tools that they had. Right. And so what I decided to do was identify in the name, the parts of me that are really important. So,
People call me Jim, people call me Jim Rainier. That's essentially what I go by in my work life. So that's one piece of my name, right? The other piece is James Francis and James Francis is the creative. And that's why I use the name as my pen name from my book because that is a creative pursuit. Anything that I do creatively, any writing that I do is always James Francis. And so I've been able to peel apart the pieces of the name to give them
them an identity that's positive for me and and to let go of that the pieces of it that used to be destructive. And I think in a lot of ways it's an honoring of my grandfather and my father and and you know acknowledging to them that look you guys did the best you could. I get it. I understand. And I know that there are parts of me that were hurt and in pain as a result of those relationships. But there was also really good things that came out of that.
And so that's how I've chosen to identify and let it go.
Tim (48:25.518)
How is your relationship to...
Not necessarily religion, and I know you've spoken about religion in your book, how it's very structured and you don't like that. But in terms of spirituality and faith, how has your relationship to those things evolved over the years?
James Francis (48:47.249)
So I'm not a religious person. I do feel spiritual, although I find it sometimes a little bit of a cop -out for people who say, sorry, my light just went off, who say, you know what, I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual.
I think we're all connected, right? And the way that I define that, and if you want to call it spiritual, then fine. But if you were to take a huge pane of glass and drop it, right, on its flat side and it landed on the ground and it splintered off, right? It didn't shatter. It just splintered off like little veins inside the piece of glass. We're all those veins sitting on that piece of glass. And so that's how I describe it. Like you and I are connected, deeply connected as people living this human experience. And I think everybody is.
connected and every tree, every plant, the whole thing. And so that's how I describe that sort of spiritual connection. And that's how I choose to live it. Like I can see somebody working at a Starbucks and know that we have this connection. We may not have chosen to act on it, but I can promise you that if you're standing behind the counter, you will know that we're connected because I will make that happen in some way. And that makes me feel really good. That gives me the positive feeling that
that yeah, we are all these little veins on this pane of glass. And that's really as far as I go. I think that now it's interesting, I was listening to NPR this morning on my way to work. And they had a guy on who was talking about his Muslim faith, he's going to take this Muslim sabbatical. And I was thinking about...
Religion in terms of what works for the individual and so if that works for him, that's awesome I think that's great, right? It makes him More connected with his community more connected with his family more connected with himself. That's all awesome stuff. It's just not my path
Tim (50:47.662)
swinging over to the physical aspect of things. How is running impacted your healing process, especially going from a mindset of running away from yourself to now running with yourself.
James Francis (51:01.329)
Yeah.
There is a distinction there. It's very similar to isolation and solitude, right? I now use running as a solitude sort of self -care event. I know that physically it helps me. It also helps me produce endorphins, which help manage my depression in a dramatic way. There isn't anything else that I do that can help drive that level of endorphins for myself. And so it's a mood changer. My body has changed quite a bit over the last,
I was like, okay, so, so my body doesn't react as well as it did to the physical aspects of running. So I run a lot slower and you know, but I try to run four or five times a week. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's the biggest thing. And I think that's
times a week because it is the one thing that sort of helps right but I also do the same thing with walking so if I'm in some pain I'll walk you know a couple of three four miles instead of running but it's that shift from running away to really self -care and and I need this time to sort things out in my head to hear my feet hitting the ground to feeling the air around me it becomes a mindfulness exercise and I think that's really the difference.
Tim (52:32.014)
Do you see running and walking having an effect on your creative process at all?
James Francis (52:39.569)
Yeah, I do. It allows me to clear my mind for sure. There's nothing though that for me that works better than meditation. I meditate sometimes when I'm running, but I really enjoy the physical interaction of running. And so I tend to focus more on that, you know, the breeze and the sun and whatever's going on around me. I really enjoy that experience.
For me, creatively, when I shut down in a meditation, whether I'm listening to music or it's a guided meditation or I'm just doing a mantra, that really allows me to sort things out that creatively are sort of swirling around in my head.
Tim (53:24.238)
Was it daunting at all when you first came off of medication?
James Francis (53:31.153)
It took me, so I was on medication for about eight years, eight or nine years when I decided the first time to go off.
And the first time I tried to get off my medication, it took me about six months and I was so sick, I couldn't do it. And so I went back on it and I stayed on it for another probably year. And then after that second period of time, I was like, okay, I think I can do this now. And you know, and this is all closely monitored. You can't walk away from this stuff overnight. It takes time and each person's body reacts differently to how long it stays in your body and how long you, you,
are needing it. Another six months and I was off the medication. I had no negative aspects after that, right? So it took me a solid year and six months, year and four months, give or take, to ultimately get completely off medication. And...
I just had the tools, I was ready. I had the tools that I needed to be able to do what I need to do to manage my situation. Because look, depression never goes away. I've still experienced bouts of depression occasionally. I certainly experience anxiety quite a bit, but it's something I can manage.
Tim (54:54.126)
Yeah, I mean, I honestly think that's what I love and respect most about your story and your book and hearing you speak is that it's not like your story comes full circle and you're like, I like the end. Like this is something that I struggled with. It's completely behind me. I mean, it is to a certain degree, but it's like, no, there is work that I must do on a regular basis to continue to take care of myself and to continue to.
build the relationship with myself. And like you said, you've had bouts of depression over the past 15 years. And you say in your book, it's in those moments when I'm tested to bring my practice forward and let the disease and the ego know that they are not the CEO. And I believe that a lot of the time it's not necessarily the feelings that we feel that are the issue, but it's our reaction to those feelings.
All of us are going to feel anxious at times, stressful, you know, scared. So that's the common denominator. What changes is how are you going to react to those things? And my favorite theme theme throughout your entire book is this understanding of you breaking the cycle and this theme of ancestral healing. And you say in your book, ancestral healers,
believe that you can heal your collective soul seven generations in the past and seven generations into the future. An ancestor is any person from whom one is descended. So in doing your work, you are not only healing yourself, you're healing seven generations going forward. Essentially, ancestral healing allows for the repair of the connections between you and your ancestors. And you're removing the destructive patterns going forward for those who follow.
And you also talked about in another interview that you did is that you did want to break the cycle, but you initially thought that by breaking the cycle would mean, you know, you, you taking yourself out of the world instead of breaking through. And people always talk about creating generational wealth for their family. How does it feel that you created?
Tim (57:21.358)
a generational new way of physical, mental, emotional and spiritual well -being for your future family.
James Francis (57:30.161)
It feels like everything that I've lived has been worth it. Honestly, that is like, you know, we just said we just celebrated Father's Day and I sat with my kids and my granddaughter and my wife and those moments are not lost on me. I realized that if I was not here, right, clearly that event wouldn't have happened, but they would not have had the benefit of learning what we've all learned. And so it feels like.
just a complete gift and like everything that I lived from the moment that I was on that shitty boat in my backyard on Long Island to today is the reason. Right? And so I, you know, my granddaughter is going to live a completely different existence. Like she's going to have problems. Everybody has problems, right? But it will be totally different path. And so it just makes everything feel.
And you know, you just brought up a point about generational wealth. Generational wealth is useless if you're not living in peace. So I'd much rather live in peace.
Tim (58:38.638)
Jim, I think that's a great point to end on. Where can everyone go to support you and your work and connect with you?
James Francis (58:45.681)
That's awesome. Thanks. Yeah, there's coffee in the fridge .com is the website for the book. You can buy the book directly there. There's coffee in the fridge .com. It's also on Amazon. It's hit bestseller status and a number of categories. My tick tock is there's coffee in the fridge. It's become a very popular mental health spot for people on tick tock, which is just incredible. The whole mental health community on tick tock is amazing. If people don't know about it, they should check it out. Instagram, there's coffee in the fridge .com.
Coffee in the Fridge, Facebook, same thing. And they can email me at there'scoffeeinthefridge .gmail .com. And I monitor all these things myself. I do have social media coordinators, but if they get a response, if I see something, they will get a response and it will be from me. So I love to connect with people for sure.
Tim (59:36.526)
Jim, I appreciate you for coming on the Outworker.
James Francis (59:39.921)
I appreciate you, Tim. Thanks man.
