The Outworker
The relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect. These conversations will hopefully allow you to develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#021 - Steph Jagger - Finding Internal Clarity In The External World
Steph Jagger left behind a successful career to travel across the world and ski 4 million vertical feet in a year. What started out as a trip to accomplish a goal ended up being a journey for self-discovery. Steph shares insights on personal growth, the balance between building and breaking down our identity, and the importance of embracing both masculine and feminine energies. She also discusses how solitude, physical challenges, and time in nature led to profound self-reflection. Steph's story illustrates the power of letting go, redefining success, and finding authenticity through life's adventures and challenges.
Timestamps:
00:00 Being the Youngest in the Family
09:51 Setting Goals for Self-Discovery and Awakening
20:18 Traveling Alone
27:24 Embracing Discomfort for Self-Discovery
34:26 Understanding Pain, Discomfort, and Suffering
35:52 Breaking Down and Rebuilding
36:33 The Intensity of Self-Discovery
40:58 Embracing Exquisite Risks
43:41 Integrating Different Aspects of Identity
53:56 The Role of Nature in Self-Reflection
01:01:57 Balancing Goals and Unfolding Journeys
01:03:41 Finding Balance in Becoming
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What’s up Outworkers. Steph Jagger left behind a successful career to travel across the world and ski 4 million vertical feet in a year. What started out as a trip to accomplish a goal ended up being a journey for self-discovery. Steph shares insights on personal growth, the balance between building and breaking down our identity, and the importance of embracing both masculine and feminine energies. She also discusses how solitude, physical challenges, and time in nature led to profound self-reflection. Steph's story illustrates the power of letting go, redefining success, and finding authenticity through life's adventures and challenges.
Tim (00:07.589)
Your story and your experiences really get to the heart and soul of this show where it's the relationship with ourself is the most important to develop, but also the easiest to neglect. And somewhere that I would like to start is when I find someone out, find someone is the youngest in their family. I always like to start there, especially because I'm the youngest in my family and taking one step further.
I'm also the youngest of four, just like you. How do you think being the youngest in your family shaped you throughout your
Steph Jagger (00:43.628)
I love this, we're the babies. How do I think it shaped me? Well, I think being the youngest gave me the strength of like the superpower of observation because I got to watch all of my siblings move through life, break the rules, get in trouble.
Tim (00:47.581)
Very much
Steph Jagger (01:12.31)
see the consequences, make different choices. Like I just got to watch all of that. So I think I became a very keen observer. And I think that did two things for me probably. It probably did more than two things, but one, it gave me...
kind of like just the right intel for how to slide through the rules maybe, like the regular way of doing things. Like, okay, well, they got in trouble for that and they seem to get, so what if I like, you I think unconsciously I just became, it became easier for me to kind of maneuver around both in seen ways and maybe in like, how do I be not seen, you know, in these types of ways. So.
That was very, very helpful. And I think that's been an extraordinarily helpful thing for me in regards to the work I do as a coach and in regards to the work I do as a writer is that sense of kind of human observation. I love watching people and have since I was younger. I think the other thing that that led to was probably, became really easy. It does become really easy. think when you're the youngest
follow suit because there's so many expectations. There's so many like, this is the way that the Jaggers do things. This is the way, you know, but it, but it also, think, provides a doorway for a little bit of natural rebellion. And so I often find, I don't know how you feel, but I often find that, the youngest, especially in larger families are often like a little bit of a black sheep. Like they're the ones who are going to kind of, I'm going to do things a little bit differently. And, and.
I don't know why that falls on us exactly, but it seems to be like, okay, I'm going to, I have an opportunity to break the mold. Maybe it's cause my parents are exhausted from holding all the rules together and I've got an opportunity to do this. Maybe it's because they're more relaxed. Maybe it's because they're satisfied that the kids are getting married and they're having kids. So, so I can do something a little bit different or, who knows, but I do think being the youngest of four made
Steph Jagger (03:23.563)
gave me an opportunity and it maybe a little bit easier to rebel from family norms.
Tim (03:28.921)
I agree with all of that a hundred percent and I feel like I had a very similar experience. So it's crazy to hear that that's what all you've said. Do you think you had a different relationship with your family members compared to your siblings having relationships with your parents? Do you think that relationship looked different?
Steph Jagger (03:33.102)
Yeah, yeah,
Steph Jagger (03:49.686)
totally, totally. mean, you know, I'm the eldest of the four is also a girl. But regardless, I think, you know, the eldest of that group is going to feel a much larger sense of and be given a much larger sense of responsibility. And so a child who's given a larger sense of responsibility and setting the role in perhaps taking care of the others is not going to likely is not going to be the one
rebels the most. And so I do think there's a much different relationship to family, you know, it, it, it allowed me to be much more quote unquote self -interested and self -focused. Of course, when we were teenagers and when we young, that was set as selfish, but it, it, because the oldest sibling is really being other focused and other,
absolutely there's different relationships to all of this, but I do think for me, that's been, again, one of the gifts of how is it that I'm relating to myself, whereas some of my other siblings, their job and their responsibility in the family was how is it that I'm relating to others in a different way than the youngest would have. So I think everybody plays, I think, wildly different role in that, given birth order. I think it's fascinating.
Tim (05:12.111)
Yeah, just to give a little bit more color on me. And I've spoken with this about other people is that I mean, I was the youngest in my family. And from the time that I was sixth grade until going off to college, I was the only one in my house. And going to that perspective of what you were saying is you kind of see yourself in a relation just to yourself rather than in relation to other people. You have that time where there may be more times
solitude where you're kind of just focusing on yourself rather than within this larger family dynamic. And you talk about in your book, you know, your book is about how you went on this incredible trip where it was a lot of personal development and understanding who you were.
Steph Jagger (05:49.762)
That's right. That's right.
Tim (06:05.695)
And before that trip, I mean, you had it figured out, you could say to a certain extent on the surface where great career by yourself, a condo, investing your money. Everyone would be looking at you and say, all right, Steph has it all figured out. She's got a great life, but you throw it away to a certain extent and you put this big
Steph Jagger (06:11.148)
Yeah. Yeah.
Steph Jagger (06:23.064)
Yeah.
Tim (06:31.443)
goal on your shoulders that you are going to ski four million vertical feet in one year. And just for people listening to put four million feet in perspective, you say that's like going down Everest from the summit all the way to the sea 135 times. And I know the purpose for achieving this goal evolves over the course of your trip, which will obviously
talk about that evolution, but take me back to your mindset when you first had the idea for this. What was that initial mindset and feeling of wanting to accomplish this goal?
Steph Jagger (07:16.662)
Yeah, you know, it's so interesting to think back on it now as opposed to like, what was it when I was, you know, in my twenties, you know, which is, which is obviously a little bit different, but I think I really think the mindset was I can feel in my life, like a little boredom and discontent. Like, yes, I quote unquote have it all. I, I ticked all the boxes that were even in a rebellious way. I ticked all the boxes that were
You know, I went through university, I had a decent career, I bought my first apartment, I was, you know, working my way up the kind of quote unquote corporate ladder. But internally, I could feel myself a little bit bored by this. Like, this is just a game. It felt like to me, like, this is just a game we play. And although certainly privileged to play it and privileged to be in the position that I was in playing it.
it just still feels like a little bit of a game and there's gotta be something more. Like, is there something more? there something? And now looking back, I would use the words aliveness. I think I felt as though there was something else that I wasn't fully accessing in myself that could be expressed, that could be found, that could be utilized to help me feel as though I was really living.
a more meaningful, more rich, more alive, more adventurous life. And so I thought, let me quit it, sell it. I can always come back. This is the blessing of having the family and the community that I had. I knew I would always be welcomed home with open arms. And so I thought, why don't I attempt, if I'm to make a big change or leap into the unknown, why don't I
the three things I love the most, which at the time and mostly still are, to travel, to write, and to ski. And I wasn't planning on writing a book, I was just planning on just writing for myself. And so that's what I did, just in search of this, surely this can't be it, was my mindset at the
Tim (09:33.011)
So would you say it's more so of like you didn't necessarily want to accomplish this goal, but you felt like you just needed something bigger or something else that needed to outdo the things that you had already accomplished?
Steph Jagger (09:48.684)
Yeah, I mean, I was thinking surely this wasn't it in regards to this life that I felt like I'd accomplished or accomplished the beginning of. And I knew myself well enough at that time that I wasn't made, I wasn't designed to like just kind of ski bum around that I would have to be motivated by some kind of goal. just, that was innate. That's just, that's part of who I am and really, really specifically part of who I was as a young woman. And so...
I, it felt really, really natural to me to, to attach a sizable kind of carrot at the end of the stick. And I think at the time that was like my, my young person's effort to rationalize it and legitimize it so that people weren't just like, what do mean she's throwing her life away to just kind of like bum around, which is valid and one should be allowed to do.
But I think the younger self at the time kind of knew I have to be able to tell myself, certainly, and I felt as though I had to be able to tell society, like, but it's for this goal. When really, looking back, the goal was me. But that's not when you're 29 years old and you're giving up a career and you're just like, I don't know, I just want to find me. It's just not even, even to yourself. It's like that's ludicrous.
Tim (11:07.495)
An interesting thing that I've been thinking about when it comes to personal development and setting big goals for yourself and you're obviously a very driven person. I am as
What I've been thinking about with personal development is how we can have these very driven positive goals on the surface, but it could potentially be used as a coping mechanism to keep ourselves blind from other parts of ourselves that need to be addressed or masking other parts of ourselves. know, you can use
bad things like drugs and alcohol to do that. But I also believe that you can use very positive things and positive goals to use as a coping mechanism as well. Do you think you ever used accomplishments, whether it was in your professional life or, you know, setting goals like this? And I know a term that you use a lot in your book is this idea of blue ribbons. Do you ever
feel like this was maybe a coping mechanism throughout your journey.
Steph Jagger (12:24.547)
Yeah, it's interesting. It's really, really interesting language. So, so for one thing, I completely agree with you that we can have quote unquote, like negative things that distract us from self discovery from uncovering different emotional landscapes from, know, finding out who we really are from looking at past wounds, you know, etc, etc, from like really living a live life that that have to do with addictions
alcohol use or over shopping or playing video games incessantly, et cetera. And then we can also do this on the flip side. Like I always have to be setting a personal record. I always have to be climbing the next mountain. I always have to be going after the adrenaline, which feels better to me than the like stasis that I feel in my, and maybe even stagnancy that I feel in my kind of core. So number one, I completely agree with you.
I think there is something really, really interesting about coping mechanism as opposed to like a tool for awakening. So when I think back to myself in my younger days, my teens, my twenties, when I was, when I was setting these goals, I think it was a mechanism, a tool to bring me into awakening. If I was still using those,
If I was still kind of blindly going after like, I skied around the world. Now I guess I've got a bike around the world, you know, that, that I, that was creating kind of a blindness to some of the other places that I felt stagnant in my life. If that's the only way I was searching for, or being able to tap into a sense of aliveness for me, then okay, we found a coping mechanism. But those initial attempts, I think, you know, when we're in our teens and twenties, maybe even into our early thirties,
and we're setting these goals, think they can be helpful tools. If we let them take us to places of self -discovery, of shit moments, of what am I really doing out here in Death Valley running circles around this course? Is it just about the adrenaline? Is this something that I really enjoy? Can I? Can I do both? Can I go and do these adventurous things? And am I also okay being
Steph Jagger (14:50.198)
with self without that charge of adrenaline, without that goal. I've come to think of goals very differently now. And this happened really shortly after that trip is like the immediate question in my head, like a day after I set the record was like, what's next? And it was such a devastating, like I was exhausted. And so to hear that voice in my head, was like, whoa, that's not, I don't know that I haven't even integrated this. haven't even.
digested what just happened. I haven't even celebrated. Like what part of me feels not enough that this wasn't big enough to be like, whoa, this is, you let me look at this. Now, if I had answered that question and developed a what's next, now we're into coping.
But the fact that I took the time and went like, okay, wait a second. I think I might have this goal setting a little bit twisted. Like I'm doing things that I think are gonna bring me something. I think they're gonna bring me accolades. I think they're gonna bring me a promotion. I think they're gonna bring me money or success. And then only when I have that will I allow myself to be happy, calm, call myself successful, worthy, whatever it is. And I really felt like the goal setting for me has shifted.
So let me think about what those things, what the things I want to be first.
Tim (16:09.639)
Yeah, I like that idea of how you say in your earlier years, it's good to have those goals because when I was reading your book, I had that thought about your story, about how your ski trip became a journey of self discovery, but that journey of self discovery would have never happened if it wasn't for your beginner mindset of, I'm setting this for a goal. So you kind of, you need that first mindset to, get to the second mindset
Steph Jagger (16:23.842)
Yeah.
Steph Jagger (16:30.456)
That's That's right. That's right. Exactly.
Tim (16:39.409)
You quote Joseph Campbell in your book a few times and you say, if you can see your path laid out in front of you, step by step, you know, it's not your path and tying things back to your family and being the youngest, being the youngest. Like you said, you can obviously just follow in the footsteps of everyone else. And this is how things work in our family as the youngest in your family.
Did you have a motivation and the goal of kind of redefining your family's way of life or the playbook for your family with the trip?
Steph Jagger (17:18.93)
I don't think I was intentional about that. I don't think that was on my mind, is like, okay, I'm really gonna redefine how my family does things or how I do things within my family. I think all of us, think perhaps the youngest have this in a bigger way, but I think there's a question for all of us that is, how do I fit in and how do I stand out? I think that's a grappling
I don't know very many people that aren't impacted by that. Like, where is belonging and where am I loved? And also what makes me unique? And what is it that's like my special sauce and how do people see that in the world? And I think as a young person, that's a really, really important question to grapple with. And I think that trip was probably a way of grappling with that question.
Since then, I usually tend to do things still to this day, like following my own intuition or kind of calling where I feel called to go. And sometimes that's in alignment with the way that my family does things. Sometimes that's not so much in alignment with the way that my family has kind of done things. But I don't know that there's any sort of intentionality of like, I must set a new way. It's more like I just have to do things.
my way and that's okay.
Tim (18:49.009)
How important was it that you went on your trip
Steph Jagger (18:55.838)
really, really, really important. Nobody's ever asked me that question. Bravo you. Yeah, really important. Because of that question, how do I fit in, but how do I stand out? Now, I understood to the nth degree what was expected of me in order to fit in. I think the youngest really gets that. And I think lots of us do, you know? But I think to be,
solo without the influence of others, especially as a young person, you know, there's an archetypal path that we go through as we as we mature and and the young version is usually made in or night. And the job of that of that person is to separate from the familial and the familiar by way of rejection, separation, rebellion, etc. to find out who they are in the
And we have a beautiful, hopefully, hopefully we have beautiful reflections of who we are from the people that we grow up with and our communities and our schools and our families. Some people don't have that, but we have to take that and hold it aside and then go out into the world and go, okay, who else am I? What other lenses am I gonna see myself through if I'm away from something that is familiar and familiar? And
parts of myself might I feel free to express if that's all gone. And so I think this is also like anthropological and sociological and mythological, like how many stories do you hear of a young person's initiation? It's like, well, they went with a group of people and did this thing. Now, certainly you could say, well, there's lots of stories around, say, war.
you know, and a group of men go off or a group of young boys go off and do this thing together. It's a very initiatory experience. But very typically the mythology around that is like, there she went with an old crone auntie into the forest for 20 days and it was just her. you know, that's a really quintessential part of a young person's initiation is can I do this on my own? And who will I meet in myself if I do this on my
Steph Jagger (21:18.158)
And to this day, I just did a trip six weeks in May that was solo. Same thing, 20 some odd years later, who am I now? What is important to me now? What parts of me am I holding back in my regular everyday life that I might be able to catch a glimpse of if there's nobody else around but me? So I think it's an important thing.
Tim (21:42.169)
Yeah, I think alone time and if you're traveling even the betters, it's honestly a necessity for life for understanding who you are. Where if we're constantly just around people, we only understand ourselves in relation to the group rather than understanding ourselves in relation to ourselves. So getting into the specifics of the trip now. So you start in Chile and then after that you head to Bariloche in Argentina.
Steph Jagger (22:01.486)
yourself.
Tim (22:12.849)
And you describe your time in Bariloche by saying, I felt invincible. Like I could charge right into my future. Like I was doing the exact things I thought this trip was all about proving I was one of the guys. So having that very goal oriented mindset of just focused on trying to achieve something and proving I was one of the guys is a phrase that you use a lot throughout your writing and the relationship with your own femininity. Femininity is also
larger theme throughout your book. In this moment, do you think you were more driven by the conscious effort of embracing the masculine nature of what you were trying to achieve? Or were you maybe more scared of opening yourself up to a different side of yourself, which may have been happening more on a subconscious
Steph Jagger (23:11.93)
The latter. think when I look at, you this is part of the benefit of getting older is you are able to see like the longer arc of life. And with that lens especially, I kind of see all of it as like, okay, there was a subconscious, like you are meant to move in on a particular direction and...
discover all of these parts of self and bring all of these parts of self to life, which include for me and I think for everybody kind of a balanced and that balance is going to look different for everybody, but kind of masculine, feminine energy, yin yang energy in your life. And that feminine energy had really been shifted, moved, not looked
not accepted, et cetera, inside of myself. And so I can see myself on that trajectory. And I think it was really, really unconscious at the time of that ski trip. And so I think I do think that that was a much larger driver, which circles back to all of the things that you've said is like, this is a quest to get to know yourself. Like what is in that subconscious that's driving you? And are you going to find it if you're surrounded by people who are just reflecting?
the conscious parts of you. And that this is usually not a like one and done. This is usually lifelong work. And that's an interesting question too, like how much of us is really, really driven by our conscious goals and how much of us is really, really driven by the undercurrents of our life. I think it's often the latter.
Tim (24:57.297)
That's something I grapple with probably at a very consistent basis as well. And it's, it's obviously like what I've tried to tell myself is that it's not necessarily trying to find an answer, but you're just in a constant search and journey for it.
Steph Jagger (25:00.482)
Yeah.
Steph Jagger (25:10.732)
Yeah, and it evolves. So you get the opportunity to live out the question as opposed to I'm gonna find an answer and once I find the answer, bingo, my life's great, I just live there for time and eternity once I find it. This is a fallacy. It's like what is the question that I'm gonna be living out through the arc of my life?
when we're younger, it's really in the subterranean of us. And we think, okay, we'll go there. But now with 20 more years, it's like, okay, I kind of get the question. And now, great, bring it. This is gonna be fun. Not that it wasn't before, but.
Tim (25:56.637)
Was it challenging to fully enjoy the skiing just for the sake of skiing when you could have looked at the skiing as this is a tool for this bigger goal that I'm trying to achieve?
Steph Jagger (26:09.262)
Some days were like grueling and I was like, don't this is not fun and I don't want to be here like it was like what do they call this like type 2 suffering or something? some of it was that but for the most part when I look back I see myself having enjoyed so much of the skiing. I mean, I I I love skiing so Were there were there a handful of days here there that it's like, I'm slugging it out on the hill for sure Especially right towards the end
I remember a couple days in Argentina, which is the beginning and a couple days towards the end. But for the most part, I loved it. I loved the skiing.
Tim (26:46.459)
Like we've said, the evolution for the trip starts with the goal, and then it becomes more a mental and emotional awakening. And you were obviously dealing with a lot of mental and emotional stuff that you were trying to unpack. But there was also, like you said, some days were grueling and you would deal with a lot of physical pain and a lot of physical stress. How do you think that physicality played into the role of everything?
Steph Jagger (27:16.11)
That's a really good question.
Steph Jagger (27:20.814)
I think there are ways in which we are naturally drawn to self -initiation. And I think some people are naturally drawn, like we move through the various bodies, the mental body, the physical body, the emotional body, et cetera. And I think some people are, their doorways in are often mental and intellectual challenges.
and wrapping their heads around kind of conceptual things. I think there are some people who are really drawn into self -initiation through emotional doorways. These are like highly sensitive people and maybe they experience a different kind of loss or they experience the world from a much more emotional kind of lens to start off with. And there are people who
like a bounty of kind of overflowing creativity. Like they're the musicians, they're the poets, they're the, you know, all of this stuff. And so they might choose a more artistic kind of journey. And I think as a young person, the physical was just, that was the doorway for me. I grew up in a fairly athletic family. Physicality was always something we did. It was the ways that we accessed excitement, peace.
It was a way that we accessed a lot of other things. So seemed like a natural, even though unconscious, like, I might be able to access a larger part of myself. And so that just felt like a really natural doorway and one that I still use to this day. Maybe not for initiations as large as what I went through then, but if I'm looking for ways to access more of myself, physicality is still a big one for me.
Tim (29:20.061)
Getting into the transition of the trip when it went from more of a goal to kind of an experience for self discovery, you say, was intimidated by the ambiguity. I'd always known what was supposed to happen next. And this realization that my journey was shifting right under my feet was profoundly unsettling. What was it like realizing that this trip was going to be more about
breaking down who you were rather than building yourself up and becoming more of who you already
Steph Jagger (29:54.958)
It's beautiful. It's a beautiful way of articulating that. I mean, as I said, it was profoundly unsettling. think, you know, when we're in our 20s, in our 30s, not 30s, I think when we're in our teens, in our 20s, pretty typically, we understand the path. Like, okay, this year I moved from grade nine to grade 10. This year
take a gap year or I go to university. This year I get my first job. This year I finish university and get an internship. There's such a path. Until we're about 25 and even then, the societal paths take over and it's like, okay, maybe I should find a partner. Okay, maybe I should think about buying a house. Okay, maybe I should think about having a family. There's just such a clear path. And I cannot tell you how many people on that book tour, on that first book tour I did,
kind of came up to me were saying like, okay, I'm about 30 and I'm having the same like, fuck, because I did all the things. I'm like, what am I supposed to do? Just do this for the rest of my life? It's like, then there's the unknown. And how willing are we to move into the unknown to try and get to know the other parts of ourselves off of our kind
growing up in societal to -do list. And I think that's when I found that, was like, my gosh, maybe this isn't about building myself up even further and cementing the identity that I kind of was given slash began to take over. And maybe this is about really deeply questioning the path of that becoming. And...
And that is an extraordinarily uncomfortable place for anyone to be. And I think my first instinct was to flail about.
Steph Jagger (32:03.8)
But then I, you know, as the story went, I had three falls. I fell through badly three times, one off a horse and other skiing. And I took that as a sign of like, ooh, I better slow down and stay put in this discomfort. And because of the physicality that I had been through, I understood what it was to stay in discomfort. Perhaps not in this way, perhaps not, I knew it physically.
But I was like, okay, if I understand what it is to stay in discomfort from a physical landscape, maybe from a mental or identity -based or emotional landscape, I might also be able to do that just to sit and see like, what's here? What's going on? And I got to tell you, mean, that skill, that is like, I don't know why they're not teaching that in school. Like, we really need to understand what it's like to get more comfortable.
inside of discomfort, not inside of suffering, not inside of pain, those are different things, but just a relative amount of discomfort to kind of go, what's here, who's here, who am I in this?
Tim (33:15.431)
What do you see is the difference between all those things that you just said pain, discomfort and suffering?
Steph Jagger (33:21.814)
I think when we're in suffering and pain, we're like over the threshold of being able to remain with ourselves. Okay, when we're over a certain threshold of discomfort, it throws us into like, I can't stay in my body. I'm in so much pain or so much suffering. I can't focus. I can't stay in my body. can't think of anything else but this pain. And that's kind of like, okay, too much to do the self -discovery
Tim (33:48.871)
Yeah, I mean, I would say from my experience that the bucket that I would land in, in that landscape is in pain. And that wasn't necessarily me willingly putting myself into that pain. was more an unwilling pain that I was in. But I think that there were benefits to that where it did open me up, like you were saying, to a mental and emotional side that I just never needed to.
go to before in my life.
Steph Jagger (34:19.926)
Right, right. So that's a beautiful question, right? Like if we're in pain, can it open doors? Yes. Because we want to be out of the pain.
Steph Jagger (34:31.542)
Yeah,
Tim (34:31.601)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and it gets to this other aspect of just being broken down and you talk about in your book is
At the onset of the trip, kind of were willingly breaking yourself down from the standpoint of you had this very well developed life, but you took the chance on yourself and you were like, I'm going to break this down. And you talk about how that can be very challenging to do because I, from my own experiences, you know, when I've been broken down the most, it was from an unwilling perspective, but you did it on
the willing side.
Steph Jagger (35:14.466)
Hmm. No, it was a breeze. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. It's challenging. It's challenging for sure. For sure. You know, I'm so glad you brought this up because there are, there is self -discovery and initiatory experiences that we go through and that we are thrust into, that there's, that we don't have control over. and there is an, there is an intensity and a difficulty and a pain often to that, that is
Tim (35:16.349)
Was that challenging at all or?
Tim (35:21.083)
Hahaha
Steph Jagger (35:43.32)
that is shocking and really, really difficult to move through.
There are also what I might call conscious or like semi -conscious initiations that we are beginning to experience discomfort in our lives. And some of us will go, Ooh, that's a sign for me to look around and see if this life fits. And there are others of us who go like, I don't want to look at that. I don't want to look at that. I don't want to look at that. And for whatever reason I have
often being a person who is willing to look at that and have often moved through. You know, that was a huge one. There have been other very, very large ones that I've made shifts in my life based on a growing discomfort and a knowing this no longer fits. And if I continue to try to wear it, something is going to break.
Tim (36:47.143)
Where do you think
Steph Jagger (36:47.212)
And so I have a choice, you know, to do I wanna take, and perhaps it's like the control freak in me. Like, do I wanna try to be in control of it, you know? Or do I wanna let it take its course and not know?
Tim (37:02.355)
Where do think that comes from for you having the courage to look at it rather than looking
Steph Jagger (37:15.052)
You know, I, where does that come
Steph Jagger (37:22.453)
Maybe there's an innate.
Steph Jagger (37:28.054)
Like, enoughness, maybe there's an innate, like, I don't know, a little one that's born with some kind of wisdom of like, this is our only life.
Like, I don't know, maybe there's some, I honestly don't know exactly how to answer that. I do think I came into this world with a strong sense of self and a strong sense of intuition. Like I have a trust in the knowings that come to me. I think it's also the strong sense of self also comes from having a family where it was like safe to take little risks here and there and learn that.
Steph Jagger (38:11.222)
I think I've always been, I'll say this and maybe give a caveat, I've always been obsessed with story and mythology and grand arcs of legacy and all these things that we find in these fairy tales and in these movies and in The Matrix and in Star Wars and all of these things. the hero's journey, Joseph Campbell's the hero's journey and from another perspective, the heroine's journey.
And I know I'm a writer, and I don't say this as a writer, but I do think this as a human. If I'm going to make a beautiful story, if I want my life to be a beautiful story, like a wild, amazing, like if I went to watch a movie of my life at the end of my life, and I want to be sitting there going like, my gosh, she really did it. And so I think about life from that perspective.
do things because it's just gonna be a good story. But it is on my mind that like, what is the more expansive decision? What is the more hero or heroine's decision? As opposed to how am I kind of like just serving my safety and my ego, et cetera, through life. I talk about this a lot with a handful of my friends, you what does it mean to take an exquisite
I'm not just risk taking for the fact of like, taking a risk and getting the adrenaline hit, et cetera, but like really what is an exquisite risk and is it not a risk to kind of feel something that's like a condensing of a life and just stay
So I don't know what kind of mix of ingredients I came into this world with, but...
Tim (40:06.225)
Yeah, I like that. It's almost like you have a macro level understanding of what your plot line wants to look like. And you have the mindset and the thought of, all right, what are the smaller things that I have to do or look at that fit into that plot
Steph Jagger (40:14.86)
Yeah, yeah.
Steph Jagger (40:26.734)
into that, into that, especially now because okay now I've got 40 years of a plot line behind me and it's like well this is the obvious trajectory of this character, you know.
Tim (40:37.083)
Yep. You've been told that playing it cool is one of your greatest strengths. And I could make the argument that that can be a great strength in some moments. And then in other moments that could be a real weakness where maybe you're not necessarily allowing yourself to be opened up to different emotions or thoughts.
Steph Jagger (40:44.181)
you
Steph Jagger (40:55.949)
Yeah.
Tim (41:04.807)
How do you think your relationship with playing it cool got undone within your
Steph Jagger (41:12.046)
Well, I think there's some things that you just can't play it cool with, but
You know, I think there's there's a, there's a time and a place where the trip shifted to like, I know exactly why I'm here. I know exactly why I'm doing this. You know, I'm setting this record. I'm pretty kick -ass, et cetera. And then you realize it's really not about that. And you're like, I guess I can't play it cool anymore because I don't know what the hell's going on. So I think, you know, my relationship to that has changed so much. And that's why I'm laughing because it's really the opposite now. It's like, where is it that I can be vulnerable? Where is it that I can be like, I don't.
I have no idea what's going on here. Where is it that I could admit my naivety or my beginner's mindset or where is it that I'm willing to learn
you know, instead of know something and hold firm to the knowing. So I think it really shifted as the trip shifted. I still know how to be a pretty cool cucumber, but more so now I really lean into like, I don't know what, I don't know if you can swear on this, but you know, I don't know what's going on. I don't know. I'm just trying to move through the arc of the plot line.
Tim (42:27.761)
I also like in your book how you almost make your internal voice like it's its own character. How do you think your relationship with your internal voice has evolved throughout your life?
Steph Jagger (42:41.07)
That is a really good question. I resonate with that deeply. It was its own character. I think now as I've moved through life, the internal voice is more similar to my voice. They're not as separate as they used to
Steph Jagger (43:10.341)
I don't know, I think that just that happened slowly over time of like, how is it that a person kind of comes into their own authenticity and their own authentic voice and how they let life kind of run through them, but.
I think they were quite separate when I was young, like I was narrating my own journey or something. And now that voice is just the voice, it's blended. Those two are blended now. And I think that goes to like, I have the playing a cool voice. You know, this external front or mask that a young person really has to kind of make it through and understand where they fit in and where they're unique.
And then as I got more more comfortable with myself, with who I was, with my own self -expression, it's kind of like, okay, those can, we're just allowed to like let that all out and express that all as
Tim (44:04.499)
that relationship between your internal voice and your actual voice becoming one and just getting closer together as you grow. So we talked about how it was important for you to take this trip alone. And there's an interesting part of your trip where your parents come to visit you in Japan. And obviously you're in this foreign environment. You're doing a lot of traveling and skiing and you start
develop yourself into a much different person compared to who you were at the start of the trip and you know in your previous life. What was that experience like seeing your parents in that foreign environment? Do you think they had any sense of your transformation or how you evolved throughout this
Steph Jagger (44:56.044)
Yeah, yeah, think they did. You know, I think it's really, it was really easy and I think it is easy for us to kind of go, my parents don't understand me.
you know, or something when we're younger. But I think my experience reflecting upon it is that they really do and that they actually have known more sides of me than I knew they knew. And perhaps as parents knew that I would have to bring some of those out in me, that I would have to reflect some of those things to me.
and that I would have to go out into the world and have the world reflect some of those things to me, as opposed to them being able to, or knowing how, or even should they reflect that to me. And so, and that's an ongoing journey, you still to this day. I just did a two week cycling trip with my dad in Italy. And to this day, you know, watching him watch me come further and further into who I am, because that's an ongoing journey.
And his both kind of surprise, but also knowing is an interesting thing to sit with. it's not a surprise to him to see me be the person that I am, but in some ways it kind of is. He wouldn't have been the person to be able to bring that out, but he can, as it's out, when it's out, he can kind of reflect, of course that's you, of course, of course, you
So I don't know, it's kind of like the magic of parenting. Our parents are not supposed to, nor should they have to reflect the entirety of our identity back to us. But I do think they are responsible, like holding it safe enough to reflect some of it back to us so that we can go out into the world and have other mirrors and other ways of self discovery. I think it was that same experience, like what they were seeing was new.
Steph Jagger (47:03.234)
but also not surprising.
Tim (47:08.103)
getting more so into the physical aspect, obviously a very physically demanding trip. And you express these types of feelings when you were in Japan where you said this was about the emotional journey about starting over, beginning again. I didn't ask for any of this, but one thing was clear. The fissure was deep. I was too far in to go back. Do you think if you were just traveling,
around the world without some type of physically demanding task that you were doing. Do you think you would have been able to have these types of internal reflections and
Steph Jagger (47:52.716)
I think I had to be alone. That's, you know, we've talked about that part already. I think I had to be solo to do
I don't know whether I would say, it have to be physical? I know for a lot of other people, it might not have to be. I do think that there was a breaking down of the kind of holding and the physical strength, et cetera, that needed to happen for me. But I actually think more than anything, what was the more important component of
was the volume of time in nature.
because the physicality I think I needed as a doorway, I think it helped kind of break down certain barriers, brought me into a kind of vulnerability maybe that I hadn't been in before, which was important. But I think that amount of time in nature is like, nature can't mask who it is. Like a cedar tree is a cedar tree. It can't just be like, I'm gonna wake up tomorrow and like try on being a raven. know, like it can't do that. And I think
Having that reflection, I am what I am, this is what it is, really kind of over time works on a person and kind of asks the question, will you also be who you are? And I think that for me was as critical, if not more, than the physicality. But the two combined was a powerful
Tim (49:27.703)
It's interesting that you say that I talked with somebody on the podcast a few months back. His name is John Beatty. He climbed all seven summits. So the highest peaks on all seven continents. And he said a very similar thing where when you combine those two aspects, like you were saying of the natural environment with the incredibly physically demanding component of something like mountain climbing, it opens you up.
It's impossible not to be opened up to who you truly are at your core and it, you know, all the unnecessary components of yourself are just taken away basically.
Steph Jagger (50:06.272)
Beautiful, beautiful. Yeah, the unnecessary components. I think there's another combination there, right? Which is like you're going out into the world to do some physically huge thing. You know, it's quite an egotistical undertaking. But when you're in big nature, it doesn't care about you. You're the smallest thing possible. So there's a paradox there that's like, right. I'm actually being invited to do this very big thing, but simultaneously I'm reminded consistently that nature doesn't give a shit about
So that's a beautiful place to be in, to kind of let the ego and let the parts of us that just aren't serving kind of
Tim (50:46.023)
I know that's a theme that's on display when you're skiing in Chamonix, France. Talk to me about that experience.
Steph Jagger (50:57.131)
I mean, that is probably the quintessential like pinnacle of what we just described, you know, that mountain range is so intense and so wild and so awe inspiring. Like you just can't help but just be like, I'm in some holy place. Like this is like nothing I've ever seen. And so the level of awe in that place.
of its severity is so large that you really do feel very insignificant or small. But at the same time, because there's wonder and awe, you feel really connected. And so I think that, and then when I was there, the temperatures were so, so, so, so cold. So there was something kind of otherworldly a little bit about that place for me.
And it was at a point in time in the journey where I was also like getting to levels of exhaustion were pretty high. And so I think it was that physical kind of breakdown combined with this really, really awe inspiring, but very severe kind of place. But to me, it almost felt like there was a total dropping away of, of the world of me within it of reality that it, that I remember really specifically those couple of days felt like a spiritual experience on those mountains.
And I felt very connected. I felt the presence of my grandfather that day, which was very unique to me. And I think it is that place, like where our physicality, we've reached some point of exhaustion that we can't hold up our ego.
Steph Jagger (52:43.352)
and you're so connected to the nature around you that you're asking like, what else is here? And then isn't it interesting how that gets answered?
Tim (52:51.059)
How did this breaking down allow you to finally accept and welcome getting back in touch with your feminine side?
Steph Jagger (53:01.312)
Well, a couple of things. mean, I think the breaking down of ego brought me into a place of more surrender, more softness, more openness. I think of those as quintessentially kind of feminine energy, yin energy places. And once you're in that place, there's space that gets created, which I think is one of the most powerful tools of feminine energy, is how do I actually create space for me to
with something, for something new to be created, as opposed to like, do I endure and be steady and kind of move something into place, which is required and is also what I would think of as very masculine energy. So I think that that breaking down kind of helped everything, that kind of steadfast mountain goat. I can work hard enough to really will this into place.
that kind of had to move out of the way. And then there's another question from there of like, okay, if I can't do that, what else is there?
And I think that's where the balance of feminine energy came in of like, there's plenty of things we can create from spaciousness, from the unknown, from softness, from vulnerability. Like both, both can do it, but like, wow, what if we embraced both?
Tim (54:29.531)
Yeah, going deeper into that balancing effect and. Playing on opposites I had on Akshay Nanavati a few months ago, he's the author of a book, Fioravanna, and one of the main pillars of his writing is that he says we need to live in dualities, so times of suffering with times of play, times of solitude with times of social interaction and an interesting
duality that you mentioned when it gets into your identity, you say, I learned I could be a warrior as well as a goddess. What is balancing those two identities look like for
Steph Jagger (55:13.384)
well, that's a beautiful question and that's a lifelong dance because of course, as a young person, we are being initiated into more warrior, rebel, knight, like what are the swords we need to like, you know, I think of it as related to the season of spring to like burst through the earth and be like, here I am, you know. And this is a time
we're really, really active. can be very physical in our lives. can, I don't know, think that's a, there is more of that, I think, in us when we're being initiated into those initial kind of phases of
I think as I've moved through a variety of different archetypes, so the next would be mother, father, parent, and then the next would be queen, king, magician, and the next would be crone, elder, et cetera, as we move through. And I think my kind of dance with that is much different. And I think I would answer it in the same way that I answered that question about the internal narrator, is the further and further that I go through life, the more and more all of those voices get braided into.
And so before I might've felt like I had to pick, okay, I've got to be a warrior in this situation, I've got to be a rebel in this situation, or I've got to be my cheeky internal narrator in this situation. And then as I've been aging, there's kind of like, it's not a dance where I have to pick one or the other, this kind of binary duality. It's actually an ability to bring those together and say they all belong. And when I allow all of them to belong, boy boy, I've got a thousand tools in the toolbox.
And so if I need to bring out a fierceness or a warrior or something that's, you know, a little more sword swinging, I've got that in my pocket. And I can kind of dance pretty freely with a lot of the other intersections of creation, of magician, of parent, of, you know, all of these different archetypes that we can have in our lives. And I think that's one of
Steph Jagger (57:21.69)
absolute blessings of getting older is that braiding that occurs.
Tim (57:26.867)
from my experience, one of the best ways to truly understand your personal growth is to visit an old environment you used to inhabit pretty frequently. Like going back to the dualities, I feel like you're able to almost embody the old version of yourself and the new version of yourself in that setting. What was it like for you on the final legs of your trip? What was it like going back
Vancouver in this new transformed version of yourself.
Steph Jagger (58:02.648)
That's a good question. think it felt a little bit vulnerable for me to be in Vancouver because I had just started to step into and just started to embody that segment of the braid, let's call it. And what that means is was kind of like fragile or delicate, easy -ish
It's like a new spring leaf. And so coming back to an environment that might be questioning of that, might not be able to hold or see that, might want me to return, like might be calling me to kind of return to the past self. It feels like a vulnerable place for that like new part of self to be emerging from. And so that was, you know, there's a real questions around that. What are, and I've gotten better at that as I've,
aged is, know, with this new part of the braid, what are the best containers, places, people, et cetera, to help me hold that intact? And I think at the very beginning, I felt a vulnerability going back. Now it feels like, okay, that part of the braid is pretty well intact. can do that.
Tim (59:25.083)
Yeah, I like that when it's at the beginning stage, it's not fully fleshed out yet and it's not fully built. So it's much more vulnerable and it's easily to be broken rather than when it gets fully developed, it can stay strong. Your story kind of comes full circle to the extent where you start with your mind and identity fixed on accomplishing this skiing goal and
Steph Jagger (59:31.02)
Yeah.
Steph Jagger (59:37.314)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim (59:52.817)
the goal kind of transitions into a trip of using skiing as a form for self discovery and understanding who you truly are. And then towards the end, actually kind of goes back to being focused on accomplishing the goal. What I would say the difference is though, is that you're doing it from a much higher level of consciousness when you're achieving the goal at the end.
And you say nothing about this felt like the same old Steph charging after another blue ribbon. It felt bigger than that beyond me in some way. So I mean, you ended up skiing 4 .1, a little over 4 .1 million feet. How was letting go of the goal actually like the most important thing for achieving
Steph Jagger (01:00:48.334)
How was letting go of the goal the most important thing for achieving
You know, I don't know that I would have been able to answer this at the time. It just, was, there was like a knowing around it, like what I wrote, like it just, it felt like the old stuff, this wasn't about what she set out to do. It was about what was unfolding. And I think, and was I willing to let that unfold? And could this be a marker, not necessarily a goal I was hitting, but like a marker of me doing that? And I think that's a really, really important thing.
that I learned that I've been able to apply to other areas of my life is the person often who sets out, has the intention, has the goal, has the initiation is a version of us that's kind of blind to what will unfold on the journey. And are we willing to hold that intention or that goal loosely enough so that as we take each step forward, we're looking around and going, okay, what else is here? Am I aware of what else is here? Because quite often we're just supposed to take
first couple of steps and then go, I didn't know that option was available and I'm supposed to turn left. You know, so I think that skillset has then allowed me to go into creative projects, into a whole bunch of different realms of my life, having an intention, but holding it loosely enough to the intention really is the journey. And I don't know exactly what's going to happen here. felt called to go on it, but let me hold the goal itself loosely enough.
so that it can be adjusted to like what the, I don't know, is it our future self that knows where we're supposed to go or how it's supposed to unfold, but so that I can really follow the largest unfolding that wants to
Tim (01:02:38.255)
My ability to finish this journey has less to do with being able to soldier on or man up than with letting go and simply being, how do you think we have to go about balancing being who we are with becoming more than we
Steph Jagger (01:02:57.196)
Gosh, I think some of this comes back to that idea of duality, of the duality. You know, there are times in life where we have to do hard things and stick with it and make it happen and have a goal and achieve the goal and endure something. And there are other times
where I think we've got to pause and create space and ask ourselves, is this the largest becoming for me, for my family, for this community, for this political group, for whatever? And I think those intersections, those crossroads are very, important for us to pause at and move slowly at and move slowly through to ask ourselves the question, is this one of those times?
that I'm just supposed to get the shit done? Or is this one of those times that I'm sensing into a larger, an unfolding that's larger than what I originally thought this was? And what would happen if I followed down that path? And the answer to that is going to be different every time. But I think the answer to that comes from a willingness to sit with the internality of self.
for just, sometimes it's just a brief moment, sometimes it's a little bit of a longer moment to ask those questions.
Tim (01:04:27.987)
Steph, where can people go to connect with you and your work?
Steph Jagger (01:04:32.504)
They can go to bookstores and they can say, you have Steph Jagger's books? And if not, order them. And then they can go to Instagram. I am there sporadically, not a lot as much anymore, but a little bit here and there. And they can come find me on my website and look at the work that I do, which is StephJagger .com. And maybe they can find me on a trail or a ski hill or someplace in a cafe in Europe.
Tim (01:05:02.259)
Steph, I really appreciate you coming on the show.
Steph Jagger (01:05:05.228)
I really, really appreciate you having
