The Outworker
The relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect. These conversations will hopefully allow you to develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#023 - Ian Manuel - Using Poetry To Survive 18 Years In Solitary Confinement
Ian Manuel was sentenced to life in prison at just 13 years old. He shares his incredible journey of surviving 18 years in solitary confinement, finding redemption through poetry, and forming an unlikely bond with the woman he shot. We discuss the challenges of reintegrating into society, the miracles that shaped his life, and how he's using his experiences to inspire others. Ian's story is a testament to the human spirit's resilience and the possibility of transformation even in the darkest circumstances.
Timestamps:
00:00 Life in Prison at 13: Ian's Journey Begins
06:00 Conforming to Street Life vs. Higher Ambitions
08:20 The Impact of Family Dynamics on Life Choices
10:25 The Pivotal Role of Ian's Grandmother
12:53 Discovering the Gift of Words
14:51 The Shooting of Debbie Baigrie
24:29 Unknowingly Turning Himself In
28:41 Life Without Parole: The Sentencing
33:30 Punishment in Solitary Confinement
34:51 18 Years in Long-Term Solitary Confinement
35:23 The Impact of Solitary Confinement
39:11 The Healing Power of Poetry
43:31 Challenges of Reentry into Society
49:25 The Importance of Human Connection
57:49 Ian Manuel's Journey of Resilience
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What’s up outworkers. Ian Manuel was sentenced to life in prison at just 13 years old. He shares his incredible journey of surviving 18 years in solitary confinement, finding redemption through poetry, and forming an unlikely bond with the woman he shot. We discuss the challenges of reintegrating into society, the miracles that shaped his life, and how he's using his experiences to inspire others. Ian's story is a testament to the human spirit's resilience and the possibility of transformation even in the darkest circumstances.
Tim (00:07.564)
What I love most about your story and what I've learned the most about your story is that it's not just about what we go through, but it's more so about how we go through it and how we choose to go through things where we all have a choice for how we want to deal with the challenges that come into our life. And it's not just the challenge itself that we have to deal with. And I believe that
A story is most powerful and authentic when it's shared directly by the person who's experienced that story. And you've talked about how your story has been told many times by other people, whether it's police reports, judges, lawyers. What do you think other people wanted the narrative for your story and your life to be?
Ian Manuel (01:04.116)
Hmm, that's a great question. I've never been asked that question quite like that. It's hard for me to like really say. I think maybe depending on who was telling it, they maybe wanted the story to be of this violent black boy who needed to be
locked up. You know, there was a term in the 90s that came out called super predator that, you know, turned out to not be factual or true. But at the time, you know, that scare tactic was used to paint young juveniles growing up in America who were committing crime as like this wave of just like terrorist kids.
who were just had no value of life, human life, and we're gonna, something had to be done to rid society of them. So I think that's one story that people would like wanted to tell and frame in. Also, you know, then there was the media.
stories that came out over the years of different people telling my story. There was a story about the victim and how she framed certain narratives.
One narrative that I'm glad that she framed at least in interviews was that she forgave me for what I did. And so, yeah, those are a couple of theories that come to mind when you ask that question.
Tim (03:05.55)
Before diving deeper into everything that had happened with Debbie Bagery, what was your introduction like to street life and gang life when you were growing up in Central Park Village in Tampa, Florida?
Ian Manuel (03:21.999)
I think I learned about street life initially from my older brother, Sean, whose nickname was John John. He was someone I actually idolized as a kid because of the respect that he had both in my neighborhoods and other violent neighborhoods throughout the city of Tampa.
So I wanted that respect for myself and I thought, guess foolishly that the way to get it was through
through committing crimes. So growing up in Central Park Village was a very...
difficult experience, but I didn't realize it was difficult at the time because it's all I actually knew. But you know, there were days and nights, particularly nights where there was shooting and my mother would tell, like, lay with me on the floor in case bullets came through our windows. They never did, but she was always, like, cautious. And that's, you know, I just noticed that
you know, later on in life that that's not the way like middle -class America lived their lives, you know, it was a huge difference for people growing up in middle -class America. And I knew that and I found out this because I got a job at the YMCA, the president of the YMCA, Bob Gilbertson. And he used to let me hang out with his family on the weekends.
Ian Manuel (05:12.756)
It was like night and day in comparison to my world versus where he and his children lived.
Tim (05:21.238)
Yeah, you say in your book that you were forced to conform to the unforgiving code of the streets. How much of street life for you was feeling like you had to conform to this way of life because that's all you knew rather than simply being like, this is what I want to do.
Ian Manuel (05:42.517)
wow, good question. I think a huge percentage. I wouldn't say how much because I don't know.
But a huge percentage was...
was me needing, wanting to conform to street life so that I wouldn't be seen as soft, that I wouldn't be seen as a pushover. However, I always had higher ambitions. I had ambitions to be somebody, whether that was in sports or the entertainment world. I was very intrigued by both Michael Jordan and Michael Jackson. So, and I was very good at
performing and I was very good at sports. And so I always thought that one of those two things would be my way out of the hood. But that was so far in the future that I kind of got wrapped up in the presence as a kid, you know? And in presence, I had to conform to my environment for the most part. But there will always be slight tugs at my heart to
do other things such as go downtown at age 10 or 11 and look for a job. I remember my friend, Ronald McClendon, who I encouraged to go downtown with me to look for a job. I remember him saying, who's going to hire us? Like we're too young. Like who's going to give us a job? I said, just let me do all the talking.
Ian Manuel (07:25.236)
We ended up getting a, not only getting a job, but meeting a guy that became like a lifelong father figure to me, and Bob Gilbertson.
Tim (07:36.686)
Speaking of that family system, you didn't have the strongest nuclear family support around you. Do you think if you did have that, do you think you would have been able to stay out of street life or do you think it was inevitable just given the environment that you were living in?
Ian Manuel (07:55.062)
I definitely believe not having a father figure in my life severely impacted my development as a boy and a man. Without a consistent father male role model to look up to and guide, I had to...
I mean, and I'm learning this now as I like go through therapy and self -reflection. Like I adopted a lot of my mother's ways. know, women are very emotional and I think just being raised in a single parent female household kind of negatively impacted me. It made me too sensitive for one thing.
take every slight like it was a knife in my chest. Yeah, the family, destructive family dynamic that I grew up in definitely impacted my life. And I do believe had I had a stronger nucleus.
Ian Manuel (09:14.334)
that maybe I wouldn't have ventured into a life of crime, at least not so early. It's hugely possible that, because you got to realize, I started getting in trouble, like arrested in sixth grade. I never even made it to the eighth grade, you know, before I was incarcerated in an adult system. So I truly just, just to answer your question, I believe had I had a dad.
it would have been, things would have been different.
Tim (09:52.12)
How impactful was your grandmother on your childhood?
Ian Manuel (09:56.758)
Yeah, I was raised by women. My grandmother, Linda, was probably the most pivotal figure outside of my mother in my life. And in many ways, she played a more important role than my mother. I mean, my mother gave me life, but my grandmother Linda, she...
Ian Manuel (10:27.764)
She valued me, man. Like I was, my name, my name Ian means gift from God. And she valued me like I was literally a gift from God. Her impact on my life is immeasurable. Grandma Linda just treasured me and I've never had, it kinda affected me because
Ian Manuel (10:57.194)
You know.
Ian Manuel (11:01.652)
It's awkward because I'm used to that treatment from her, but when people try to get too close to me, like this shining light or whatever, this aura that I'm told I have about myself, I kind of push people back because I don't like people to get too close to me. But Grandma Linda's impact on my life was...
was remarkable, just the way she loved me, man. I think I put a poem in the book about her,
Tim (11:39.468)
Yep. You just said something interesting there about people saying you have this aura about you. What do you think that or is?
Ian Manuel (11:45.941)
Yeah.
Ian Manuel (11:50.58)
Wow,
So that's a great question because.
Ian Manuel (12:00.446)
Many people go through life and not discover what their gifts are. I think each and every one of us is born with a gift. Some of us have more than others. I believe one of my gifts is the ability to compose words in ways that move people. I discovered that gift at an early age and I nurtured it in solitary confinement. But as far as my aura,
Ian Manuel (12:33.046)
I don't know if I can like, you're making me want to write a poem about it. Actually, there's a...
Tim (12:41.294)
The thing I would say is, and this might help with an aura, that I would probably say that the stronger the aura, can't be put into words. It can only be felt when you're in the presence of it.
Ian Manuel (12:54.912)
Thank you for helping me out because yeah, I can't quite put a thing on it. And this isn't something new. This is something I've heard in different ways all my life or people have shown me all my life. Yeah, it's spiritual, man. And I'm so thankful that God or the universe chose me.
Tim (13:16.61)
yet.
Ian Manuel (13:24.638)
as a vessel to be that light that people.
Feel that way about.
Tim (13:34.144)
Yeah, and I would say that what you've experienced in your life is obviously a massive reason for how that aura has been built in where you are now. So getting into the start of that journey for how that aura is built, walk me through the events leading up to shooting Debbie Bagery.
Ian Manuel (13:47.36)
Right.
Ian Manuel (14:01.898)
Yeah, you know, I've told this story so many times that it never gets old though, because when you look back on traumatic events, you always think, well, if I didn't do that, then that wouldn't have happened. But if I never did that, then the good parts wouldn't have happened either, right? So you just look at it like it was meant to be. But,
I just remember being young, 13, sitting on my girlfriend's porch trying to convince her to go upstairs with me.
She was,
resistant towards it saying that last time we went upstairs that I told my mother and my mother told her mother so she didn't feel like she could trust me and so she wasn't going upstairs with me. And I just was like so frustrated. And I was, I remember like just trying to continuously convince her like, no, I had to tell my mom that where I was that night.
Ian Manuel (15:18.486)
Because it was past my curfew. I had like an 11 o 'clock curfew or something like that, which is crazy for a 13 year old child have an 11 o 'clock curfew. If I ever have kids, I think they should be in the house way before 11 o 'clock at night. anyway, she never went, she didn't want to go upstairs. And so while I'm sitting on the porch with her,
I would see my friends, a few of my friends in the neighborhood would stop by, see me on the porch and, hey, Ian, let's go to the game room. I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'm chilling with my girl. Or, hey, Ian, let's go to the park. I'm like, nah, not today, maybe tomorrow. I'm chilling with my girl. But by after like an hour or two had gone by and she still hadn't budged on her decision to go upstairs with me.
A final friend approached the front porch and asked me to go, like he pulled me off the porch and says, Ian, I got a gun, let's go do some jacking. Jacking, jacking, now back then was the street terminology for committing a robbery. And...
I remember looking back at her.
Ian Manuel (16:39.646)
and saying, yeah, might as well because there's nothing going on here. Throughout the years, and so we left and hooked up with two other guys and we proceeded to go downtown to commit a robbery. But throughout the years, I...
at myself when I like looking at myself leave that porch and I would say things like to myself just talking to myself and my conscience like why did I leave like I turned everybody else down why didn't I turn the guy with the gun down you know but you know it's high inside this 2020 we went downtown and
They gave me the gun. was the youngest out of everybody. It was four of us. It was a guy 18 or 19 or older, because this was the first time I ever met the guy. Another guy named Keith, he was 16. And my friend, Marquis, who gave me the gun, he was 14. I was the youngest. And so they kept trying to convince me to commit a robbery.
in the broad open and I kept turning them down. So many people got saved that night based on me saying no. And by this time, an hour or two had passed and we still hadn't found anybody to rob because I kept turning everybody down that they pointed out, turning them down. And the person with the gun has the power.
like the final decision of who we're gonna rob. So by this time, the whole group was frustrated. And I remember us sitting down on like a curve. And the older guy said, Ian, if you're scared, give the gun to somebody else. Give the gun to Marquise. So I gave the gun to Marquise who was sitting next to me on the curve. He passed the gun to his cousin, Keith.
Ian Manuel (19:00.53)
and he passed the gun to the older guy Ronald. So here we are sitting on this curb, passing this gun back and forth and no one wanting to take ownership. I'm frustrated like, okay, I'll do it. I'm laughing, but like laughing at how ignorant it was for...
for us to be playing these games with our lives. But.
Ian Manuel (19:37.278)
My keys gave me the gun and said, you know what? Ian's not scared. I know Ian ain't scared. He got the heart of a lion. And so we made a pact, an agreement that the next people that we approach, that no matter if it was too open, no matter what, we had been downtown too long, the next people we approach, they were getting robbed. Okay, I agreed. So now the pressure's on me.
the person with the gun, now that I agreed that no matter if it's too open or not, that a robbery was gonna take place. the older guy walked up to a couple leaning on a red car in a parking lot, literally right behind us. And I just remember hearing him say something like, do you have change for a 20? I was a few feet back and I thought I heard him say yes.
Ian Manuel (20:39.69)
And I pulled out the gun and said, it's a jack. The lady screamed immediately, startled me, I fired.
Ian Manuel (20:52.68)
After that, everything just happened was a blur. More shots were fired, but nobody else was hit.
We all turned around to run back to our neighborhood. Well, I turned around to run to go back to my neighborhood while they searched the male victim. The lady Debbie had ran across the street. And...
Ian Manuel (21:21.718)
I remember Marquis catching up with me and I turned around and I asked, how much did you get? How much did you get? And he replied, he didn't have anything, Jim. He didn't have anything. I threw the gun in some bushes by a courthouse in downtown Tampa and I ran back to the neighborhood.
Ian Manuel (21:45.94)
Later that night, what I found so intriguing or I wouldn't say intriguing, what I found so peculiar was a police officer pulled up in my neighborhood, pointed to me and told me to come to the car. I couldn't go home.
because it was past my 11 o 'clock curfew and my mother had a rule that if I stayed out past 11 o 'clock, don't knock on her door, go back where I came from, till the morning. That was my punishment for violating her curfew rule. So I was out the 11 o 'clock by this time of night and...
The police pointed to me and said, hey, you come here. So I walked up to the side of the car and he says, hey, have you been in the park all night? I said, what park? The big park or the little park? He said, central park, which is my neighborhood name, the name of my neighborhood. I said, yeah, why? He said, cause you fit the description of somebody that just took place in a shooting in downtown Tampa. So I immediately turn around and I'm like,
all these people out here with red and black on, you're to pick me out of the whole Central Park? But what's like, like I said, what's peculiar is he was dead to the right. Like he had the right guy. And that's why I encourage people right now to this day. First of all, crime doesn't pay, but don't commit a crime in Tampa, Florida. You're going to jail, right? You're going to jail.
possibly for a long time if it's a serious crime. But yeah, that's what happened that night, July 27th, 1990.
Tim (23:43.48)
So you unknowingly turned yourself in pretty much. Walk me through that entire experience.
Ian Manuel (23:47.573)
Mm -hmm.
Ian Manuel (23:55.424)
Ironically, I was arrested for a stolen car three days later when I got to the police station Me and my friends I was in the back seat of the police car. I mean of the stolen car. I almost died that day because We jumped out of the stolen car and my foot Got caught under the tire because I was in the back seat and I jumped out the back door and my I had on a pair of
I had on a pair of Converse Chuck Taylors, low cut, low top, I'll never forget. And when I jumped out the car, one of my feet got caught under the tire and I'm going down. And I just remember like, no, I can't die like this. And I snatched, I snatched my foot out of the, out of the tire. So we ended up getting arrested, all three of us.
And I ended up in Tampa police station. And while I'm in the Tampa police station, I don't know what was wrong with me, man, but I seen that it was just meant, it was meant to be. I see the exact same police officer that pulled me over and that pulled me to the side of his car that night and asked me if I, you know, had I been in Central Park all night. I seen him and I called him to the holding cell and I said, Hey, sir.
Did y 'all ever catch that guy that committed that shooting in downtown Tampa? He said, I don't think that we did.
Ian Manuel (25:31.946)
I said, okay. It had been knowing at my conscience because I didn't know at that time, I didn't know until the police told me that someone had got shot. I didn't know when it actually happened that I had shot Debbie because in my childlike mind, in the movies, when you shot somebody, they fell down. No one fell down that night.
So I told the officer and so my mother didn't come pick me up from the police station. So I ended up going to, she couldn't come pick me up because I had a hold on me. And I ended up going to the detention center. And I just remember the officer constantly asking me about had I been involved in any other crimes. And for some reason, man,
I went against the code of the streets. Not only are you not supposed to tell on anybody else, you're definitely not supposed to tell on yourself.
But I had this big pressure on my chest and I just wanted to get it out. And for some reason, it's difficult to even talk about now because it's still some trauma there. I used to sit in my cell at night and think I brought all this on myself, literally. But anyway, we got to the juvenile detention center parking lot and I said,
He said, there anything else you wanna tell me?
Ian Manuel (27:13.974)
before we go into the detention center, I'm like, yeah, actually it is. You know that lady that got shot downtown the other night? He said, yeah. I said, I'm the one that did it. That statement changed the trajectory of my life forever because instead of just going to the detention center, doing 21 days for a grand theft auto,
I wouldn't see the streets of society again for another 26 years. So that's how that confession went.
Tim (27:48.12)
Do you think you would have eventually been caught if this didn't happen? Or do you think they would have never found the guy?
Ian Manuel (27:54.954)
They would have never found me.
They would have never found me because there was no evidence tying me to the crime. Like even after I...
Ian Manuel (28:13.302)
was incarcerated and received all my discovery of evidence. There was no evidence that the victim couldn't identify me. the guy lied and say he gave me money. I ended up with a life sentence for robbery that I didn't do because he said he gave me $3, which is what?
I would have gave him the $3 back if that's all he had on him. I'd never even touch the guy. But to answer your question directly, no, I would have never been arrested.
Tim (28:52.046)
So July 30th, 1990, you get charged. What were all the crimes that you were charged with and what was the sentencing?
Ian Manuel (29:02.134)
So I was charged with two counts of attempted first degree murder for shooting Debbie and shooting at the man. And I was charged with armed robbery and attempted armed robbery. The armed robbery never happened. I stand on that 32 years or 33 years later, however long it's been, 34 years later. The sentencing was...
life for the robbery, life for the attempted murder, 15 years for the attempted robbery, all running concurrent and life probation for shooting at the man, which was the other attempted murder. And I'll never forget the judge, the judge's statement. He said, and the life probation is being imposed. Matter of fact, I just remember here, I'll tell you his whole
speech spilled. Mr. Manuel, there was a statement made earlier today in this courtroom about giving you a second chance. However, sometimes there are no second chances. So I sentence you to life.
Ian Manuel (30:18.07)
for the attempted murder. I sentenced you to 15 years for the attempted robbery. I sentenced you to life for the armed robbery. Those sentences ought to be rank -occurring. And I'm sentencing you to life probation for the other attempted murder, consecutive. And I'm imposing this probation sentence in case the Department of Corrections should, for whatever reason, ever release you.
Yeah, he tried to end my life. Literally, he tried to end my life.
Yeah, that was a bitter pill to swallow. But I will say at that time, I didn't comprehend what life without parole actually meant. I thought I'd be home in 25 years, seven years. There was all type of rumors that a life sentence didn't really mean life. And I was young and I didn't know the legalities that I was facing. But before I got to the sentencing,
My attorney, a guy by the name of Brian Gonzalez, manipulated me into pleading guilty. He told me if I pleaded guilty, I was gonna get 15 years without any probation or anything like that. And I told him I didn't wanna go to prison period. And I had heard all these horror stories about prison. So he went and got my mother and my mother came over.
and convinced me to plead guilty because I thought about all the times that she had told me to do something and I did the opposite. And I ended up reaping the consequences of my decision. So I'm like, man, my mother been to prison before. She's older than me. Maybe she knows what she's talking about. So I threw myself at the mercy of the court and ended up open plea of guilt, thinking I would get 15 years. And in turn, I was sentenced to
Ian Manuel (32:18.878)
Life without parole.
Tim (32:22.88)
What was prison like right at the beginning when you got there?
Ian Manuel (32:27.734)
Prison was like punishment right when I got there because they placed me in solitary confinement my first day because of my age. Was I still there? I had just turned 14 and they didn't put me in the general prison population initially. They put me in solitary confinement, which was...
which was painful to go through at that time, like, because it wasn't something I was used to. However, then I was transferred to an adult prison and placed in open population after like a month at the reception center in solitary confinement. And then, you know, I was given all the responsibilities of an adult as a child. And I rebelled. I would do teenage, typical teenage behavior, like,
The officers would yell at me, I'd yell back. They'd tell me to walk on the sidewalk, I'd walk in the grass. I'd be in unauthorized areas, places I wasn't supposed to be, in other dormitories. I'd get into fights. Just typical groin pains. However, when you do those groin pains inside of an adult facility incarcerated,
they punish you for it. So I was placed in like solitary confinement, given a lot of write -ups until they said I was a management problem and ended up placing me in long -term solitary confinement in November 1992. And I will remain in long -term solitary from November 1992 to November 2010, 18 consecutive years.
from age 15 to age 33.
Tim (34:21.282)
What did your cell look like in solitary?
Ian Manuel (34:25.174)
Small 6x9 cell. sells very depending on what prison you was at, but I mostly spent a lot of my time in Florida State Prison, Union Correctional Institution, Martin CI. I was always at the worst of the worst prisons, right? But the cells were small, metal bunk, no mirror.
a back window that was covered with plastic so you couldn't see out. You could only see the grass below you.
there was a door in front of yourself with a rectangle window for you to look out. Depending on what shift was working, you couldn't talk. If you were caught talking, they would punish you by spraying you with high -powered chemical agents that got on your skin and burned like you were being roasted alive, that took your breath away. If they caught you looking at the female nurse,
when she came on the wang to pass out and distribute medication, they would gas you and put you on strip status. Strip status included a minimum of 72 hours, which is three days of no mattress, no sheets, no blankets, just you and your boxers for three days, being tortured by the winter and the elements.
sleeping on the cold steel bunk or the floor of your cell. Yeah, man, I went through hell.
Tim (36:14.146)
So just taking a very objective standpoint, because obviously you did commit a crime. What should your sentencing have looked like?
Ian Manuel (36:25.728)
So other states, for example, I think Illinois or Michigan was one. When I was growing up studying, like literally trying to study the law and reading about all these school shootings that was happening in the 90s in America.
Ian Manuel (36:46.742)
or the Amy Fisher case and so many other cases that I used to like, well, why didn't they give me that opportunity? But anyway, like it was other states that had a law on the books that said they would send us a child to the age of maturity. So for some that was 18, for some that was age 21, that you would be incarcerated until you reached the age of maturity and receive programming.
that help you develop your and rehabilitate yourself. I had to learn to rehabilitate myself. doesn't rehabilitate you. So just to answer to your question, think, you know, to sentence me to a, if you're gonna put me in prison instead of a juvenile program or a juvenile prison, if you're gonna put me in adult prison, which I didn't think I deserved, but if you did,
leave me there until the age of maturity. Don't throw me away completely and sentence me to life without parole as if like I didn't kill anybody. So why were you literally trying to figuratively kill me and all of my dreams, hopes and aspirations?
Yeah.
Tim (38:09.43)
Yeah, so I mean, another fascinating thing getting things back into the solitary is that your development gets stripped even more by going into solitary as a teenager. What are the heightened risks for kids being put in solitary confinement?
Ian Manuel (38:27.414)
You don't get the emotionally developed. You don't get the stimuli that you would, you you already like a stimuli being in prison in comparison to society, but that is lessened even more by growing up in a cell. had to, the only way I survived was I dived within the depths of my imagination and I started writing poetry.
I creating these beautiful, I taught myself how to write poetry. I'm in process now of publishing, or shopping around a poetry book that will have a lot of poems that the world has never seen before. I currently travel the country sharing my own story to different colleges and universities and organizations. And the way people respond to my poetry, you would think Michael Jackson was on that stage, but.
I knew I could do that because I used to recite poetry to my fellow prisoners. And you take a population of men who have been abandoned, beaten, hurt, suffering depression. And if you can reach through all of that, cut through all that and touch them like I used to, then out here is a piece of cake. And...
My poetry saved my mind. My creativity saved my mind in that cell. I used to challenge myself. I used to rewrite Eminem. I rewrote Eminem's songs and Langston Hughes, Maya Angelou. I used to do all these things to, I didn't know I was doing them at the time, but in reflection, I realized I was actually trying to save my mind. I put my brain to sleep and,
as I just found out in therapy to numb myself against the insanity that surrounded me. Yeah, I forgot what the initial question was. I just went on a tangent there.
Tim (40:37.858)
good. Yeah, I was asking about the heightened risks for kids being put in solitary confinement. Yeah, I mean, that's one of the most interesting reasons why I loved your story in your book so much is because
Ian Manuel (40:43.968)
Yeah.
Tim (40:53.748)
I related to the poetry aspect of it. I mean, I haven't gone through anything like you have ever gone through, but I have been put into a time in my life where poetry really helped me. So the fact that you were put into this terrible situation and to see how poetry and creativity was the thing that got you through being put in solitary confinement.
Ian Manuel (40:57.472)
Yes.
Tim (41:23.69)
is just super powerful to see.
Ian Manuel (41:26.698)
Yeah, thank you. Harvard just purchased my archive of prison writings and poetry. And so it kind of validated that I was actually very good at what I did. And I want to share one of the first poems I wrote in solitary. It's called Genie in the Bottle. It says, I'm the genie in the bottle. The world has forgot. They put me in this abyss.
and closed up the top. I was a little boy when they did what they did, but time continued to tick and I'm no longer a kid. My mother is dead and so is my father. I've been abandoned by family while trapped in this bottle, but I hold on to hope that someone will open the top, answer my prayers and help me out. Sometimes people pick up the bottle
and put that eye to the hole. But instead of compassion acting different and cold, I suffer sensory deprivation, a lost sense of direction. There's no mirror in this bottle for me to see my reflection. They say being lonely and alone are two different definitions, but it's only me in this bottle. So I fit both descriptions. What I need is a friend.
someone to extend a hand. It could be as simple as picking up a pen. Someone who cares accepts me for who I am. My magnetic personality and my baggage from the past. Someone who helps heal the sorrow will work on building our tomorrow. Someone who refuses to leave me to die in this bottle. Thank you.
Tim (43:24.814)
Do remember how long into your sentencing that you wrote that?
Ian Manuel (43:29.878)
Yeah, actually I do. I didn't start taking my poetry really, really, really seriously until around 2006. So I think I wrote that in 2006. So I got locked up in 90. So what is that, 16 years later?
Tim (43:47.754)
one line that stood out to me there is that you say, needing somebody to connect with you for who you truly are. How did Debbie bakery, of all people become that person for you?
Ian Manuel (44:02.678)
Yeah, I made a phone call one day in early 1991, Christmas 1991. It was just weighing on me, like I had confessed to this crime, but to me that wasn't enough. I had never spoken to the person that I hurt. And I wanted to clear my conscience and let her know that, you I was sorry because I wasn't raised like that. That wasn't what my mother had or grandmother had instilled in me.
And so I just got this wild idea. lived in my head a lot that it could work. And so I, I found her phone number and the police reports that they give you. Everyone told me it was a crazy idea. The guys, the older convicts in the dorm were like, man, they're going to give you another chance for harassing the victim. Don't call that lady. I didn't listen. I picked up the phone and I called her and she accepted the call. We talked.
for about 15 minutes. I don't remember a lot about the first conversation itself. Me starting the call with Ms. Bagry, I'd like to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas and to apologize for shooting you in the face. And she asked me a question that no child should ever have to answer. She said, Ian, why did you shoot me? And I just remember my reply being, it all happened so fast, which it did.
I asked her, I call back? She said yes. Call back. And I don't remember anything except the end of the conversation. And that's when I asked her, could I write her? And she said I could. And that's how Correspondence started.
Tim (45:47.874)
So did you start writing her before you started writing poetry?
Ian Manuel (45:57.876)
Yes, yes, yes. But I did, I had to think on that. The reason I had to think on that was because in the Starbucks documentary that they did on me and Debbie, there's some poetry that I sent Debbie. And I imagine that came later in the 90s. But even in the early 90s when I was writing and dabbling in poetry, didn't, when I say I didn't take it serious, I hadn't discovered.
That poetry was my gift yet. You know, I didn't make that discovery until in the 2000s.
Tim (46:37.442)
Something that I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on is because I'm a big believer that having times of solitude can be very important for building a strong relationship with ourselves and opening up our mind to new thoughts and ideas where we can just be in this environment where we're not talking with other people. Obviously you were on
one very extreme end of that where it was against your will for an extended period of time. So if you're in that setting of solitude, it can become very destructive, especially as a young kid, when you're not being, like you said, stimulated by other things and you can only rely on yourself in your mind. What I'd be curious to know though is how do you think being in solitary
Ian Manuel (47:09.472)
Right.
Tim (47:33.12)
impacted your writing process.
Ian Manuel (47:37.376)
my God. Had I not been in solitary, I would not be the writer. The strength of my writing would not be as strong as it is.
Solitary allowed me to black black out the distractions that people in society and people even in general prison population Get caught up in you know, there's so much sports and Whether if you're in society that's the your job and going back and forth to your job to raising your family family and open population as the
fights and the lovers and the officers. It's just too many distractions. Being in solitary confinement, I felt like a Buddhist monk. I was totally away from all the bullshit in society or open population. And I could just dive within the depth of my consciousness where
could reflect back what I was feeling, you know? As much as I hate solitary confinement,
regret those 18 years I spent in solitary because I was able to create some beautiful, beautiful art, valuable art and discover the gift that the universe had gave me.
Ian Manuel (49:17.8)
And even now.
can call on it. I mean, I get caught up out here when I, money is a huge distraction sometimes. And I use money sometimes as a.
Ian Manuel (49:35.646)
as a way to self -medicate, whether it's gambling or whatever.
I went through a lot of money fast, man. And when I don't have a lot of money and I'm not traveling and here and there and I'm just sitting in my apartment with my thoughts as I have been the past couple of weeks, I create some beautiful, beautiful art. So the world is in for a treat. I'm currently shopping around, like I said, my poetry book.
It's gonna be some beautiful, beautiful poetry. And I just wrote a poem dedicated to God. I don't wanna like speak, share that now because it isn't published, but I think the world will be quite impressed with this voice that I discovered during some difficult times.
Tim (50:25.014)
Save it for the book.
Tim (50:39.192)
So do you feel like for your writing process, now that you're out of jail, you have to recreate that solitary environment to have the same effect for your writing?
Ian Manuel (50:49.952)
man, I hope not, but it does seem like I self -sabotage sometimes to get to that point. I wish I knew how to just, hey, you know what? Let me book a retreat and go to some quiet place in the poker nodes or something and find that without having to self -sabotage unconsciously myself to create this beautiful art. But.
I think it's, I only been out, November will be eight years I've been out, I think. I got out in 16. I think November will be eight years. So I haven't been out a full 10 years yet. So I'm still on a self discovery phase, like learning what works, what doesn't work, learning myself, self reflection therapy.
So I guess the answer is I'm trying to get to a point where I don't have to create this self -sabotage chaos for me to create this beautiful art.
Tim (52:03.564)
Yeah, that's really well said. So poetry was obviously something that you use to express yourself mentally and emotionally. Talk to me about the relationship though, between being physically abused and not being able to show emotion and the effect that it had on you in prison.
Ian Manuel (52:26.1)
Yeah, it had a huge effect on me, man, because...
Ian Manuel (52:33.174)
You know, I've been through trauma therapy since I've been out and...
I went through this intense trauma program in Arizona where it was 12 hours of therapy, seven days a week from 7 a to 7 p All type of therapy, equine therapy with horses, psychodrama therapy, individual therapy, group therapy, EMD therapy. It was very intense. And some things came up during those therapy sessions, things that
I thought I had dealt with, but I hadn't. I had only pushed them down. To numb myself because I couldn't express pain and sadness in a way in prison that would be acceptable to my peers or the staff. Because in prison, if you show signs of weakness or sadness, not only do you get ridiculed,
by your fellow prisoners, but the staff will take advantage of you. So you have to wear this mask of impenetrable, impregnable defense system against sadness, against showing emotions. I wish I could have showed more emotions in prison because maybe I wouldn't have harbored so much. But I tell you this, I was able to cry.
through my pen. My poetry was therapeutic and cathartic. That's how I got it out. That's exactly how I got it out.
Ian Manuel (54:21.654)
Before we go, I want to at least say something about I would not be here had it not been for my lawyer, Bryan Stevenson, in the Equal Justice Initiative.
Tim (54:32.172)
Yep, I was gonna get into that right now.
Ian Manuel (54:34.422)
Okay.
Tim (54:36.62)
So.
Tim (54:44.408)
So how many years into your prison sentence did you get the letter from Bryan Stevenson from Equal Justice Initiative?
Ian Manuel (54:55.83)
right when I started taking poetry serious in 2006.
Yeah, so yeah.
Tim (55:02.52)
So that, so how many years into that sentence was it then?
Ian Manuel (55:06.974)
Say that again?
Tim (55:08.172)
How many years into your sentence was it then?
Ian Manuel (55:09.782)
16. I think that was 16 years.
Tim (55:13.174)
And what was it about your case specifically that EJI thought they could help?
Ian Manuel (55:20.118)
I believe EJI were looking for the youngest of the youngest that they could find who had committed a non homicide crime to challenge life without parole sentences for juveniles. And when they went, they looked throughout the whole United States, they were only able to find, two people and that were 13 when their crime happened.
who had been sentenced to life for a non -harmicide crime. And so they finally, after years of people overlooking my case because it wasn't the right fit, it was the perfect fit for what EJI wanted to do with me.
Tim (56:05.166)
You thought you were going to be released in 2011, but then were sent back to prison? Talk me through everything that happened.
Ian Manuel (56:14.006)
Yeah, it was a 65 year sentence. I'll never forget the judge. One of my attorneys who works for Brian was asking for time served. And the judge, I remember him saying, and like have leniency on me. My lawyer was asking for leniency and the judge said something I'll never forget. He was like,
Ian Manuel (56:41.974)
You know, everybody's in my court when talking about rehabilitation. However, in 1990, the legislative intent was to punish, not rehabilitate. When he said those words, I knew I wasn't going home that day. So he went in his chambers to deliberate, or twiddle his thumbs or whatever he was doing back there. And he came back out like 30 minutes later.
nullified my life sentences and in place gave me 65 years in prison. So I was sent back to prison, finally given a release date, but my release date was 2 ,031, 32. I'm like, man, and this is 2011. I'm like, man, I can't win for losing, man. Like what more do you want? You know? But.
Everything happens for a reason, man. In retrospect,
Ian Manuel (57:44.918)
Things were aligning in my favor for me to come home to be successful. Had I got out all those other years when I wanted to get out, don't think, I don't think that I would have been as successful as I have been now.
Tim (58:08.174)
Mr. Manuel sort of defies what the prediction might be for someone who has been in isolation for that long because he has responded so well. Obviously, you've written a lot of poetry, which has helped you. But I would say the vast majority, if not everyone who was put into that situation, and they were told just write poetry for 18 years, and you'll be able to get through this. I don't think a single person would be able to endure that.
Ian Manuel (58:38.678)
Yes, sir.
Tim (58:39.778)
Why do you think you were able to get through everything that you went through?
Ian Manuel (58:45.558)
I believe in a higher power, man. I believe I manifested Bryan Stevenson. believe I have a purpose to fulfill in this world. I think, you know, if you look at the holy scriptures, whether it's the Quran or the Bible, it's like God picks the most...
unlikely people to be the heroes. Whether it was David to become king or whether it was Joseph who I really like in the Bible. One of my favorite stories in the Bible is about Joseph. I think I'm that one of those unlikely characters that God has this huge purpose for.
think it's finished. I don't think it was just me going to prison and getting out. And I think it's more I think I was meant to impact humanity in a way that it hasn't hasn't been impacted before. They're currently in works to do a documentary about my life. There's a talks a I did a one man poetry show already, but there's talk about
Like making that, exposing that to a broader audience, a one man show on Broadway. I just think, man, I was meant, what man meant for bad, God meant for good when it came to E. Emmanuel's life.
Tim (01:00:25.24)
What did your plan look like for reentry into the real world right before you got released? Was there something lined up that you had programmed with EJI?
Ian Manuel (01:00:35.926)
No, I had a very childlike, only thing I wanted to do was write a book. I wanted to write a book. Other than that, I just wanted to eat, man. I wanted to make up for 26 years of just trash food. I wanted to devour everything. remember, I remember having this fantasy of pizza with shrimp topping. I wanted, cause I had never,
Like had that, like I only had pepperoni. I don't eat pepperoni anymore because it's pork. But I just had these ideas of what freedom felt and tastes like. to me, pizza with shrimp topping was the epitome of freedom. So I didn't have any reentry plans. In that sense, I know I did want to travel the country, which I'm currently doing.
just not as broadly as I want. did want to, like I told the judge at my final re -senating scene, when he said, Mr. Manning, when he knew I was going home and I knew I was going home, the judge asked me, Mr. Manning, what are you going to do with your life? I said, I'm going to go out here and I'm going to tell my story. And if I could touch one person and convince them to change.
and deter them from committing crimes, then all of this would not have been in vain. Since I've been out, man, I got so many letters, emails, DMs, texts telling me how inspirational my story is and how moved they are to either get involved with the criminal justice system and change it or to change their ways and not commit crimes. So I'm more than lipped up to my promise to that judge.
So if there was any particular reentry thing I wanted besides that pizza with shrimp topping it was to impact the world and change the way people view people who look like me with similar experiences.
Tim (01:02:47.202)
How important was it having Debbie with you on the day you got released?
Ian Manuel (01:02:52.588)
that was like a dream come true. That was like something straight out of a movie. Like, I remember getting out of the car and my lawyer, my social worker, and Debbie got, we met at like a gas station. And I just remember finally getting to do what I had like imagined and manifested so many years in prison. I hugged Debbie.
And I kissed on both sides of her cheek because I didn't know which side the bullet had went in. And I just, I felt like that was like completion for me. Like I had made up, I know that's like kind of like crazy to think, but it's also crazy to think that you could actually kiss somebody that you shot. And I got that opportunity, man. So,
It was so real. It was like an out of body experience, man, to live that, man. That night, that day, November, I think 10th, 2016, man, it's like winning the lottery.
It's like escaping a burning building with your life. It's like, man, it's a feeling that I wish that everybody could feel at least once in their life just being successful and having a dream, an impossible dream come true. my God, I gotta write that down. Impossible dream come true.
Tim (01:04:36.268)
I love how you're writing that down right now because you know, if you don't, you're going to forget it.
Ian Manuel (01:04:36.594)
You
Ian Manuel (01:04:41.387)
Yeah.
Tim (01:04:43.722)
getting back to the aura component that we were talking about how people say you have this aura to you that they like. And I think just from talking with you, based on what you just said, I think you just have this very deeply ingrained appreciation appreciation for life that not a lot of people have experienced because there aren't a lot of people who have experienced what you have gone through and how you've
Ian Manuel (01:04:44.16)
facts.
Ian Manuel (01:04:51.637)
Yes.
Ian Manuel (01:05:03.52)
Yes.
Tim (01:05:13.614)
overcome it. And I think you also just have this young and pure energy to you, especially for somebody your age. And that's another fascinating thing that I'd love to hear you talk about is how I've heard you say how you're a 40 year old man physically, but on the mental, emotional and developmental side and just living within society, because you were cut off.
Ian Manuel (01:05:22.016)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tim (01:05:42.648)
from society for such a long time, you are a teenager to a certain extent still. How do you grapple with all that?
Ian Manuel (01:05:48.874)
Yeah.
It's difficult because it impacts my relationships. You know, people expect me to behave in ways that a 47 year old man will behave. I mean, and I'm not like wild or anything like that. It's just that I don't have the experience of how to navigate relationships properly on a personal level. On a professional level, it's like I've been doing this all my life, right? Because I'm a performer, that comes natural.
but on a personal level, I struggle with relationships sometimes because with relationships, you have to let people get close to you.
That doesn't feel good sometimes just from childhood trauma. Yeah, I have a lot of mental and emotional development to do, especially in the emotional intelligence department. That's something that I'm deficient in. And I blame that on solitary confinement. So on one sense, solitary confinement helped me with my creativity, but on the other end, it kind of stunted my growth in many areas.
that I needed to develop. It's an everyday process and I'm willing to put in the work to get better at it.
Tim (01:07:17.932)
Because you were in isolation for such a massive part of your life. Being outside of prison now. Are you in your most comfortable natural state when you're alone? Do you feel like
Ian Manuel (01:07:32.96)
Yes, absolutely. I love it. I love it. Like.
I people, especially, I know you remember doing the COVID era where everyone had to be in the house and people were losing their minds. Man, I was in my element. I was in my zone. I'm like, yes. Like, man, this is where it's at, man. I was so happy, man. Yeah, working from home and man, like COVID really changed the world for the better in my eyes.
know people lost their lives and I'm sorry about that and my heart goes out to those victims. But in a sense, it kind of restructured the societal mentality of how things had to work. Instead of, I have to meet you at your office for every one of these meetings. No, we can do this over Zoom. You know what I'm saying? It just became, I did a whole book tour on Zoom and it was so much better because,
would have had to fly to 15 different states to sell a few copies of books and man, in each state, like it just makes no sense. I love the COVID era. So yes, I'm in my best element. You hear how excited I got when you asked me that question, right? I love being alone, man. And that's just because I spent so much time by myself.
Tim (01:09:06.774)
We need to speak about harm, what we've done, what's been done to us, because that is what will open doors, what will air out and begin to heal the wounds we carry and have caused. And that is what will allow for new stories to begin to be told. What's the new story that you want to tell?
Ian Manuel (01:09:27.604)
Hmm, let me think on that.
Ian Manuel (01:09:32.982)
think the new story I want to tell is the one of what happens after prison. The reentry process and what it looked like for me versus what it looks like for others. I want to tell the story of...
in probability of, know, people think miracles stop happening in the biblical age. And I know my story is nothing short of a miracle. Like having Bryan Stevenson write me a letter and take my case for free. It's like winning the lottery. Like that just doesn't happen like that. I have in the US Supreme court.
in a 5 -4 decision overturned all juvenile life sentences and given me an opportunity not to die in prison was a miracle. Meeting Jeff Bezos and having Jeff Bezos give me the advice of this is going to be in my poetry book that maybe you need to focus on lyric writing instead of just poetry because from a business standpoint, poetry really doesn't sell that well,
At first I took it as criticism because everyone else, all the celebrities were telling me and by celebrities, mean, Lucy Liu, Rita Orr, of Allison Felix, Brian. Everyone was telling me how remarkable my poetry was and how moved they were by it. And here's Jeff thinking from a business standpoint, like, yeah, everybody's feeling this, but there's not really any money in poetry. Right. And giving me the advice that, hey, man, you
transform that poetry into lyrics and make your money that way. Just the miracle that my life is. I think that's the new story that I want to tell. How miracles are still possible in this day and age.
Tim (01:11:33.368)
That's what I love most about your poem. If I told my story, the final line that I lived a miraculous life, the fact that you used miraculous there instead of something like challenging or difficult or unfair just shows the type of mindset that you've had with everything that you've dealt with and will continue to do with your future.
Ian Manuel (01:11:48.512)
Yeah.
Ian Manuel (01:11:59.103)
Yes, sir.
Tim (01:12:00.992)
Ian, where can people go to connect with you and support you?
Ian Manuel (01:12:05.61)
Thank you. People could connect with me at Ianmanuelofficial on Instagram. People could connect with me on Twitter, where I think I'm Ianmanuelofficial as well. Yeah, that's the best two places to find me.
Tim (01:12:28.276)
Ian, I really appreciate you for coming on the show.
Ian Manuel (01:12:31.734)
Thank you for having me, Tim. It's been my pleasure.
