The Outworker
The relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect. These conversations will hopefully allow you to develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#027 - George Mumford - Changing Your Life's Path & Building The Minds Of Michael Jordan And Kobe Bryant
George Mumford's journey from the depths of addiction to becoming a pivotal mindfulness coach for sports legends is nothing short of extraordinary. Mumford reveals how mindfulness became his lifeline, propelling him from substance abuse to discovering his authentic self and becoming a sought-after mental performance coach. Uncover the transformative techniques that not only saved Mumford's life but also shaped the legendary careers of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Learn how Mumford focuses on nurturing the whole person, not just the athlete, as he shares intimate insights into his work with elite teams and individuals. He unveils the secret ingredients that fuel the insatiable drive of sports' greatest icons. Prepare to be inspired as we explore mindfulness's power in unlocking human potential, in competition and in life.
Timestamps:
00:00 Intro
05:07 Relationship with Drugs and Alcohol
10:03 Rehab Process
13:03 The Mind-Body Connection and Overcoming Physical Pain
25:00 Releasing Suffering and Finding Purpose
36:21 Living a Double Life and Making a Shift
45:19 Teaching and Helping Others
46:58 Forgetting Oneself to Find Oneself
49:32 Impact of Being Roommates with Julius Erving
54:39 Phil Jackson Bringing George to Work with the Chicago Bulls
57:27 Wellness Leads to Winning
1:10:10 What Makes Michael Jordan Special
1:17:17 What Made Kobe Bryant Different
1:22:33 Why George Could Connect Deeply with MJ & Kobe
01:25:45 Focusing on the Present Moment
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What’s up Outworkers. George Mumford's journey from the depths of addiction to becoming a pivotal mindfulness coach for sports legends is nothing short of extraordinary. In this riveting interview, Mumford reveals how mindfulness became his lifeline, propelling him from substance abuse to discovering his authentic self and becoming a sought-after mental performance coach. Uncover the transformative techniques that not only saved Mumford's life but also shaped the legendary careers of Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant. Learn how Mumford focuses on nurturing the whole person, not just the athlete, as he shares intimate insights into his work with elite teams and individuals. He unveils the secret ingredients that fuel the insatiable drive of sports' greatest icons. Prepare to be inspired as we explore mindfulness's power in unlocking human potential, in competition and in life.
Tim (00:02.386)
George, welcome to the show.
George Mumford (00:04.12)
Thanks, Tom. Glad to be here.
Tim (00:07.206)
I believe the best work we do really doesn't even feel like work. It's more so an expression of who we are as a person and the challenges and experiences we go through act as the guiding force behind that work. And obviously we're always trying to refine our craft and progress and have that growth mindset. But I've learned over the years that
being in that growth mindset, you can take it for granted and it's a privilege, it's not a right. And you grew up in Boston, Massachusetts in Dorchester. At a young age, what was it like being in an environment where you were focused on trying to survive and not thrive?
George Mumford (00:58.382)
Bye.
Well, since that's all I knew, it was just a habit of just having to work hard. You know, just even to be considered in a conversation, you got to work 10 times harder than the other person. So it's a habit. And I think a lot of it has to do with when you work up and when you grow up.
I would say work up, is kind of a 40 inch lift, but that's the way it is, work. You start working earlier. Like for me, started, I was shining shoes downtown and then working in the car wash and different places wherever I could. And even before that, I used to clean people's yards and whatnot. And they used to pay me off with the recyclables, what we call recyclables. The two cent bottles and whatnot, they would add up.
So you would you kind of do that. So it was just something that It was it was the environment it was a culture So when the culture is that when you when you grow up in a three -decker neighborhood, you know, three floors and whatnot Everybody is working hard by blue collar and everybody is is trying to hustle So it was just natural and of course, you know, I don't think I saw it as work back then I saw it as a means to an end
Especially because all I did with my when I'm thinking about when I was really young and I was running errands and doing things for people We used to go out and then buy buy stuff that we wanted whether it was candy or you know like a model airplane I used to like to work on model airplanes, but then you had to kind of airplanes you put together and you could they could fly and And you know buying little gadgets little toys stuff like that
Tim (02:46.056)
When you were a kid, did you have a vision for what you wanted that end to look like?
George Mumford (02:53.095)
Depends when I was really young young younger. I think it was more about the role models, you know the movie stars the the the athletes the entertainers I Didn't really mind I think about I didn't think much about People that actual people was more about the people I saw on TV I probably had that that fantasy or that notion that if you're on TV, you're really important
you know, and you were really famous and I think everybody wanted that. But I didn't have a lot of dreams until I got to maybe when I got into elementary school, I knew I wanted to go to college. I knew I wanted to be able to make a living, a good living.
Tim (03:39.688)
As a kid, you were very quiet and it wasn't necessarily because that's what felt most natural, but it was more so from the standpoint of just trying to stay out of harm's way. And you say whatever emotional pain I experienced, I unconsciously buried in my body. No wonder pain became my constant companion. And we all try to...
experience pain in different ways where we can open ourselves up to that pain or we try to close ourselves off from that pain. How did drugs and alcohol play into that relationship with your pain?
George Mumford (04:26.186)
I think the pain, I for me, and I know now there are a lot of our memories stored in the body, and that would not, but...
When I started playing sports, I was very injury prone. Now I know that because I was in a stressful environment, and even if the environment wasn't stressful the way I was relating to my experience was stressful. I was injury prone. And so when I started getting injured and in those days, they didn't really have sports medicine.
the way you have it now. And so I recognized it when I was, when I took those meds that it got rid of my inhibitions and I was able to get out of myself. But I think the main reason, one of the main reasons I was quiet, just to go back a little bit, was because I was super sensitive. And so I was too sensitive and I would talk about my feelings and they would tell me that, you know, don't be sensitive and man up. And so.
That was another occasion for me not to share what I was really feeling because I was, I guess like a, I guess I would call it now and I was an empath. I could pick up people's emotions and their pain. And so when I used to see in those days, we used to call them winos, but they're really homeless people. When I used to see one on the street, I would feel sad. And if somebody in the, in the neighborhood moved, I would be devastated. So you can see how that would, would, would.
I would be disappointed but it's interesting I didn't really take it that seriously you know when I lost it was more like when my team lost or someone else lost but yeah so it kind of opened up a whole new world for me in terms of being able to be more
George Mumford (06:29.9)
I wouldn't say no questions, I speak more than I would normally speak.
Tim (06:35.208)
How old were you when you became consciously aware that using drugs and alcohol shifted from kind of just dealing with the pain and injuries you were going through to abusing those things?
George Mumford (06:50.35)
I think it was probably adolescence, know, probably, you know, the teens, 13, 14, 15, around that age. Yeah.
Tim (07:02.268)
And then at your worst, I'm just curious to know what would a typical day look like for you when you were dealing with these things.
George Mumford (07:13.762)
Well, it depends because I like most most most young folks when I was growing up, we played all sports. We played a lot of sports in the street. Then when you get into junior high school and high school, then you start playing team sports more organized. But I was just thinking this is it's.
depends on what you're talking about, mostly a typical day was, you you go to school, you come home from school and you go outside and you play. So you could play basketball. I guess by the time I got to be 11 or 12, I think basketball became a sport. But before that, baseball was the main thing. We would play, you know, like we would play stick ball or, you know, we just get a ball in the bat and we go someplace and we play. So baseball was really, really,
big as well as football. We'd get a football and we'd play football and stuff like that. And then when I started playing basketball, well, we played all sports. We also played tag. We would run up and down. You know, we'd do a lot of running. So a typical day was really like, you know, if it's during the school day, you go to school and then you come home from school and you play. And then when it got dark, you went home.
and you did your homework or did the other things. But I was never one of those who came home and did my homework. It was more like, get me out of here. I want to get outside. So a typical day was, yeah, it was just basically hanging out with your friends and playing games. That's pretty much it. But we didn't stay in the house.
Tim (08:50.012)
And then when you got older and into college and into professional life, what would a typical day look like for you at your worst when you were also dealing with drugs and alcohol?
George Mumford (08:59.094)
Yeah, well, yeah, well, was like I was very disciplined. would go to go to my classes and, know, pretty much, you know, photo, you know, Monday through Thursday, you know, you, you know, you went to class and you did everything you're supposed to do. And then Thursday night and then the weekends you party or, you know, you, you know, you got involved in that stuff. But it depends on the season, because when I was.
When I played basketball, when I played sports, I was disciplined enough not to get engaged in that kind of stuff during the season. I'd like to talk about I'd be Joe College in a day, but then that night I'd be a little bit more, if I wasn't in season, I'd be a little bit more active. I didn't really watch what I took or who I hung with or what I did. So I think...
It's hard to say, typical kid, but whatever everybody else was doing, that's what I did. You know, it's very, very much.
yeah.
Tim (10:05.298)
What did the acceptance process and then the rehab process look like for you? Because obviously before going through that recovery process, you have to be consciously aware that you have a problem and you want to get better. What did that process look like for you?
George Mumford (10:21.902)
Yeah, so that it's interesting because it was I just celebrated 40 years of sobriety on july 30th, so What it looked like for me is So I didn't really think I was going to be able to You know not be Dependent on alcohol and drugs until a friend of mine came by my house on april 1st and I and now I think about it
Prior to that I had contracted a strep infection. so I actually was walking around with like 104 degree temperature. I went in hospital and then they took me the hospital for week. And then when I got out of the hospital, shortly after that, my friend came by and took me to our AA meeting. was a Sunday. It was April 1st, April Fool's Day. And when I went to that meeting, when I saw him, I said, okay, so how did he do that? So I was very curious.
And so I started going to 12 step meetings after that. And then I got into a detox and I went into a 21 day detox, but I had connected with a therapist and this HM motor that I was in. so,
George Mumford (11:42.35)
So we designed a plan for me to go in and do a 21 day detox. And so when I went into the detox, was pretty much like I had been still going to 12 step meetings. But when I went into the detox, there was a part of me that knew, I guess because I was known by the company you keep, was hanging around people in recovery. There was a voice that said to me, well, at the same George, the
that goes in is the same when it comes out, we got a problem. Like, know, Houston, we have a problem. So, yeah, so I went into detox and, you know, you know, kicked cold turkey and then when I got out, I went to meetings. I went to 30 meetings in 30 days, 60 meetings in 60 days, 90 meetings in 90 days. Then I got involved in this.
Self -help group, but I went to a lot of meetings and I was very active in the program. So once again, it's that hard work. It's that Work ethic is you know, I don't do anything Lightly everything's intense. Everything is like if I'm in I'm either all in or I'm not in and so so for me it was And then that's when I discovered You know how I really felt and and learned about recovery and
and personal development, personal responsibility and that sort of stuff. But yeah, so I would say, yes, I was all in. So to the degree, sometimes on a weekend, I might go to six meetings instead of the one a day. But yeah, so that's what it was like for me. And then the other part of that you talk about out work. So when I got out of detox, I went into I got involved in this.
Tim (13:15.826)
What was your?
George Mumford (13:34.062)
Experiential program at that met at the HMO I was in called managing stress and that's when I learned about changing my lifestyle and the idea of learning about the mind body modalities like like meditation and yoga and Tai Chi and and just actually be taking more responsibility for my For my health care and not just relying on some doctor or some some professional health person telling me
what to do. I would listen, but I was actively involved in my recovery and my life. So that was a lifestyle change. That was huge. It was big. And so when I went into this program, they taught us about the mind body process. So we had a syllabus. They gave us a tape and we would listen to the tape and learn about meditation or just the idea of getting some type of auto feedback.
some way of just understanding what we do and the impact. just understand that the understanding that the mind and body are connected. But also I learned about this idea of the difference between reacting and responding. So when you react, you just react. And then not only in reaction, you're awfulizing. You focus on what's wrong and you keep going. I started to learn about the idea of you can create space between stimulus and response. And then in that space, you can choose your response. So I learned.
I it was, I'm trying to think what was called the three C's. That I was committed to my development and I saw everything as a challenge. And the third thing was that I had control. So I couldn't control what happens to me, but I can control whether I reacted or responded, so we call that resilience. that was really huge for me to understand that
You know, I'm responsible and I get to choose how I think, I feel, how I behave, even though if I don't exercise that autonomy, then it's happening. so just knowing that I can control that, I can't control what happens to me, but I control my response to it, my attitude towards it and the amount of effort I'm going to bring to it. So when I got into that process, it gave us a syllabus with...
George Mumford (15:59.182)
things to read and study. And so at that point, I think I started reading a book a week at least. So over 40 years, that's a lot of books. And not just reading books, but just being a learner, because I felt I had this need to be intellectually stimulated. I think we all have that need. want to understand. I wanted to understand, OK, it took me a long time to decide to take responsibility to admit that my life was unmanageable.
But there's a lot of people out there that don't do that, you know, what motivated what you saw was interested in what motivates people to do the right thing, especially when they've been doing the wrong thing for so long. And the other thing is understanding how to communicate with people. And especially if you're working or talking to people, how do you know? Or what do you do when they're what they say and what they do don't line up, which is what most people that I was engaging with.
at that time. think in general, most people don't really, they're not, they don't have the integrity of doing what they say they do. And some things you can do that. But when it comes to things like addiction, like dealing with unpleasant feelings and situations, we tend to, there's a tendency not to be truthful or a tendency to just not to follow up on things because it's assumed to be more.
more painful than it's worth, or for that reason. But just starting to be able to look at myself and to take responsibility and to realize that it was really important for me to walk my talk.
Tim (17:42.504)
The mind body connection and the relationship between the mind body is very fascinating to me. And it's something that I resonate with on a deep level, just to give you a little bit more background on me. A few years ago, I had a really bad back injury. I had two herniated discs in my lower back and had terrible chronic back pain for seven months, you know, 24 seven pain.
No type of physical treatments helped like physical therapy, massage, cortisone shots. It's not until I found the work of Dr. John Sarno, not sure if you've ever heard of him before or not, but his work with this thing called tension my own neural syndrome is how it's all about the mind body connection and how physical pain there's a large psychological component to it.
George Mumford (18:31.352)
We'll be
George Mumford (18:37.902)
Mm
Tim (18:37.904)
where things can be happening in our mind. And the result of that is a physical manifestation, like physical pain. And I know that you've dealt with chronic back pain before and also bad migraines in your life. When you became more aware of that mind body connection, how did that raise your level of consciousness with everything that you do in your life?
George Mumford (18:50.904)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
George Mumford (19:04.718)
Yes, so thanks for reminding me. First thing I discovered when I stopped using substances the way I was, including drinking, is I chronic pain. And I've been going to a chiropractor since 1975. So I didn't get cleaned in 1984. So I always had bi -prane. I slept on a bed. You know, I had a board underneath my mattress in college. Because I always had...
back pain and migraine and headaches. And so I had to learn how to deal with them, you know, and see the pain as a motivator to understand how do I relate to the pain in ways where I didn't have to take, you know, drugs. And sometimes I have to and I had to, but for the most part, I was able to relate to the pain because what I would discover when I started looking into it and with the self -awareness and being able to observe my experience throughout the day, I realized that
there were moments where there was less pain and that there were things that I could do, you know, like my glutes, know, certain muscles and certain stretches that I had to do and do things and do strengthening things, but just realizing that that I could relate to the pain in a way that would that would allow me to thrive and not just survive. And that I realized that I wasn't in pain all day, even though that was the now we're talking about chronic pain in the in our
perception of what's happening to us. And so I had to learn right away that the nervous system doesn't discriminate, but it's programmed to move towards what's pleasant, move away from or avoidance or aversion to what's unpleasant. And if it's neither pleasant or unpleasant, and I'm not talking about equanimity, I'm talking about indifference where there's nothing we're interested in, we space out. And so the body is going to do that. So to train myself,
When something is painful not not to push it away or move away from it but to be present for it to embrace it and if something is really Pleasant to embrace it without being attached to it I identify with it to the point where it's consuming me but to be able to say and Dr. David Hawkins, he wrote a lot of books one of his books was It happens to be power versus force. He said that all experiences are of equal value
George Mumford (21:33.174)
And so the idea is can we, and I have, you know, my at home with George, I started off every week by creating the possibility of saying yes to whatever comes up, then embrace it and say yes to it, and then generate the hope and then create this space and relate to it in a way with the growth mindset. What's the lesson here? How do I learn? And what's this teaching me? And so that's been really powerful. And I've been doing that all along, but as you continue to
Experiment with life investigate continuous inquiry is what I call it. Sometimes you start to think about how do do that? And would that work? How do I make it? How do I do it more that didn't work? How do I not do that and do more the other sort of chronic pain thing is what really got me into that that program to really deal with the current of migraines and the back pain and I could see what the migraine sometimes it was a most it most of the time when one of those things were
being impacted me is because I was a lot of stress or I was trying to do too much you talked about out working it's great to work hard but you to work smart and you can't work you can't want it too much we talked about right effort it has to be balanced it can't be too much so if you have too much efforting and not enough poise or concentration then you become frenetic but if you have too much poise and concentration and not enough effort you become sluggish
And so when I put the mind for athletes to pure performance, I talk about right effort, right concentration or poise or being able to focus. And so learning how to do that. so for me, took me decades to figure that out because everything I did was like a warrior energy. Then I realized less is more. Slow motion gets you there quicker. You know, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. So that was a really challenging lesson for me to learn because the intensity and this ability to
You know, just work your way through it. Sometimes less is more. And that's where the wisdom or the discrimination comes in. Discernment comes in. There's understanding that sometimes you've got to bring more energy and sometimes you've got to dial it back. And so that's a self -regulatory skill. I talk about self -regulation. It's what I teach a lot. It's self -regulation, self -awareness. So self -awareness is just mirror mind. You've got to see things clearly. You've got to embrace it and say yes to it.
George Mumford (23:59.298)
Then the self -regulation is this idea that we have this ability to step back and observe experience and that we can observe our thoughts, our feelings and behaviors, as well as how we interpret experience. And the idea is to understand that and then be able to, you know, we have autonomy, but we have to take responsibility and make choices and train ourselves to focus on the right choices and to focus on working with the right level of intensity. Sometimes you have to
bring more energy sometimes you have to bring it down but without the self -awareness you can't self -regulate and when you can self -regulate then you can get the self -master
Tim (24:38.522)
Yeah, word that you use a lot in your writing, I've found is use the word incremental where you're just trying to make those small gains on a daily basis. And I completely agree with you that there is such a thing as going too hard and you talk about outworking and that's something that I think I struggled with or I would think about is how do I use this out worker philosophy, but in a healthy and smart way. And then something clicked with me where
George Mumford (24:46.7)
Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Tim (25:07.272)
I think there's a big difference between outworking and overworking where when you outwork, you understand that it's a dance in a way where you know when you have to pull back. But with overworking, it's almost like you're just like full steam ahead and that can be a problem at some points. And when it gets back to the conversation on pain with chronic pain, one of the main things that I learned was
George Mumford (25:16.46)
I
Tim (25:35.546)
And you said this as well, but just being able to be aware of what you're feeling and not reacting to it, not like not understanding that this is something that I'm feeling in the moment, but like, this isn't a part of who I am as a person. And it gets into this understanding also of rewiring your brain. And you say many individuals want to change, but they're often unconsciously attached to their suffering.
George Mumford (25:41.484)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Tim (26:04.828)
or to the old self they think they want to change. They have identified with that suffering or that old self for so long that they're afraid they won't know who they are without it. Even if that suffering or that old self has no real place in the context of their current life anymore. And we can overcome suffering. We can find purpose in suffering. I think we can find accomplishments within suffering. You know, I definitely think I did with
you know, all the pain that I went through, literally the physical pain. think there was a lot of good that came from that. But I think the most important thing, the question that have for you is how do you think you've released yourself from your suffering?
George Mumford (26:39.181)
Yeah.
George Mumford (26:51.256)
You mean on a good day? It's not always. It's always the same. It's always the same drill is is, you know, it's the difference between, trying to force or allowing and
Tim (26:53.106)
Sure, yeah.
Exactly.
George Mumford (27:14.335)
A big part of it is just seeing what's working and what's not working. so a lot of the process has to do with understanding what's helpful and what's not helpful. And so it's not just what you're doing, it's the context in what you're doing it. And your body will tell you if you're trying too hard, you know, there'll be tension. And if you're not trying hard enough, you'll be more like this. So you have to find, once again, the right effort, you have to find the balance. But
But it's really, it's the motivation. See, if we're coming from fear, doubt and insecurity, there's always gonna be this, you you're doing it, but it's fear -based and that always leads to more suffering. But if it's, you know, having the courage of having fear and developing the courage to do it anyway, but it's not just doing something, it's...
It's being guided by insight or wisdom or information. So we got to know, what's the intention? What is it we're trying to do? And what's the best way to do it? And when we, and then are we clear about what we're trying to do? Do we have a clear goal that's relevant and important to us? And then with the goal.
and then immediate feedback. Are we willing to see what's there and then make the adjustments on the fly? And that takes a lot because a lot of times it's hard to see, it's challenging to see things, it's painful to see things, but it's only by getting to a place of vulnerability where we're willing to say, okay, whatever's happening is happening because the conditions for what is happening to be happening are present.
So once we admit to that and then we understand what are the conditions and if we know what the conditions are we can change them You understand but there has to be an embrace of them first and and I'll give you an example When you start doing this, you know the spiritual stuff and you realize that anger is just not helpful and Like I said about the nervous system So what I would do sometimes is to antidote the anger would be like loving kindness meant person be happy one of them
George Mumford (29:33.26)
one of the antidotes or you just notice it and notice that it's and if you stay there it's going to lead to unpleasant circumstances so you just have to figure out how to feel it and let it process through which is really challenging but but even with that sometimes just watching it and not doing anything or marshaling the the anger to actually do something about it actually
you know, use it for the force of good because we need energy to do things. And so I would, because I was teaching this stuff and I had anger, I went from anger, which I would say is the awareness to the action of the compassionate action, which would be to do the opposite of anger or, you know, to just kind of look at it, feel it and let it process through. Well, what I would do is
In order to get rid of the anger, I would do the loving kindness or I would get involved in something but something was missing and Then I figured it out what I figured out was I never accepted it Because when we have that's why when we look at things as good as good and bad the ego is going to
Is going to kind of deny things not see it because it means that we're bad if we have anger, you We shouldn't have anger, but if we can see this is wholesome and not awesome. Don't judge it. Let me say this anger present once I embrace it and accept it which is really challenging because you may have to go through the the status of grief
you know, bargaining or God, if you just get me through this, I never take another drink or whatever, or I'll never do something or I'll do something to make up for the denial or, know, everything's fine. Don't worry about it. It'll go away. The anger, you know, get angry about the depression and your turn in and then getting to acceptance. And so it's not linear. You go through it and it has its own process.
George Mumford (31:40.286)
So we have a lot of deaths because we got a diet or old self to be born or the new self every ending is a beginning every beginning is an ending and so So once I said, okay, so there's anger there or even more so for me. It wasn't so much the anger it was the Stress, know feeling stressed and I would say I Don't get stressed. I'm you know, I grew up tough, you know, I can handle stuff. I don't get stressed
And then if I listen to my body, my body would be saying, you know, that's some BS, Josh, you know, there's stress in here. And I say, well, what do you mean? He said, well, your shoulders up around you, ears, there's some stress in there. So once I was able to open up, be vulnerable, say, let me look, okay, why don't I act as if there's stress there? Okay, there's stress there. Then once I accept it, now I can do something about it. Just like with my addiction.
It's a lot of denial and say yeah, yeah this stuff going on but it's okay and whatever but once I say yes I have a problem my life is unmanageable and my best thinking keeps me high or drunk So I have they accept it once I accept it then I can do the compassionate action And in that case the compassionate action is to realize yes, you know
You know, I go through all those, all that grief, you know, I have to admit that I have a problem. Once I admit it, I could be vulnerable, but out of the vulnerability becomes a power because now I had to say, okay, I'm talking about my addiction now. best thinking kept me high or drunk. So now once I accepted that I was unmanageable, then I was open to do things. I had to grow my mindset, do things that would work. And what I had to do is behave my way in the proper thinking.
because my thinking was all jilted and in the fear mode instead of being in the growth mode saying, okay, what's the lesson here? Let's look at it. And then once I was able to look at it and try new things and they said, okay, do this. But here's how simple it was. Not easy, but simple. If you don't drink, you won't get drunk. If you don't take drugs, you won't get high. You know, that's it.
George Mumford (33:51.106)
You know, if you don't awfulize, your attitude will be better. Instead of focusing on what's wrong all the time, focus on what's right. Have attitude, gratitude, whatever it took. once, so you can see where the four A's, the awareness of it, the acceptance of it, which is really the challenging work, and then the compassionate action, and then the fourth A is the assessment. What worked, what didn't work, and how did you get it to work more? But what I had to do is...
behave my way in the proper thinking. Once I did that, then now I could think about it understand it. But a lot of, some of us, because we're in our heads, we think we have to understand it before we do it or before we commit to do it. Now it takes vulnerability, vulnerability to do it when you don't even know if it's gonna work. But I would say that's life. It's what we do, trial and error. And to the degree that we can accept that.
Work with it then then we're into something we get in that growth mode and then you actually get into To you get you get into this idea of learning and achieving and when you do that you actually generate What I recall energizing enthusiasm so enthusiasm comes from the this these the God within and feels Just doing that so believe it or not
Outworking people are working ourselves, but out working each other in a way that we get more wisdom We have more compassion. We have more love, but we do it But like I slow is smooth smooth is fast But because when you're in fear you're trying to do it fast because you want to know how am I doing? Am I working? I said I say no it'll work I can commit to it just do the work and then I'll figure it out later, but do what I know to do and then
and then the rest will be given to me. But that's totally antithetical to our culture and the way that most of us are raised. So you cannot work, but a lot of the work is really on an energetic level.
Tim (35:47.75)
Couldn't agree with you more. And I think one of the main things that helped me unlock myself internally was understanding that the feelings that I feel, that's not who I am. That's just something that I'm feeling in the moment and having that higher level of awareness that I am not those things or the insecurities that I might have. Those are things that I'm just experiencing, but that is not
George Mumford (36:04.664)
Right.
Tim (36:16.616)
who I am as a person. And that helped me evolve as a person and reach that higher level of consciousness. And that stemmed from the work that I had to do with my back pain and further understanding the mind body connection. So that was really the pivotal point in my life where I felt like there was a pretty big switch or a pretty big evolution in who I was as a person. And you were living a double life from the standpoint that
George Mumford (36:30.39)
Mm
Tim (36:47.078)
You were a financial analyst by day and then you were an addict by night. But once you got clean and started becoming more in touch with yourself internally, you still felt like you were living a double life from the standpoint that the professional life that you had built for yourself really didn't fit into this evolved version of George that you had become. So you originally
went through a rehab process so you could get clean from drugs and alcohol. But taking this a step forward now, what did this personal realignment process look like for you?
George Mumford (37:21.336)
Mm
George Mumford (37:31.074)
Yes, so now we talk about being honest and just being real with how you feel. So what it looks like is just being able to listen to yourself and ask yourself, you why am I here? You what am I doing? So I was working as a financial analyst. I was really good at it, but my heart wasn't in it. And so when
I would I would forget meetings or I do things and and and I still wasn't once I talked about the denial I was in denial about it and so in those days I would meet with my my teacher My meditation teacher once a week and one day I went in I talked about this in both my books I believe I went in to see it for I was a Monday afternoon and I walk in to the meeting and to the room and he says what's going on?
I said, what do you mean? says, you look happy today. I said, I took a mental health day off from work. And he said, you should make a habit of that. That's all he said. That was it. And of course, where I was, the crap hit the fan, which it usually does, what I call ass on fire motivation.
George Mumford (38:48.898)
When I got to the point where I couldn't stay and I couldn't leave, that was another bottom just like alcohol. couldn't stay, couldn't leave. And I spent the whole weekend just breathing in, breathing out and just feeling devastated. Cause when you make sometimes with me, when you make a strong choice, it's not like black and white. There's gray areas and there's pros and cons, but they suffer through it. And I read somewhere it's, everybody wants to be free.
But the reality is to struggle for freedom. You gotta be up for that. You know, if you're struggling, even if you're not being free, you're struggling to be free. And so for me, I got to a point where I couldn't stay and so I left. That was one of the best decisions I made, but it was extremely painful. so yeah, so that's what happened to me. And then to be, to actually start over again. But there's no coincidence that at the same time,
that I was going through this process. The power of myth was being played on PBS. I had just moved into this apartment and not far from where I live now, but I moved into the apartment and I was watching PBS and at night during this time they had the six part series and I was watching it and Joseph Campbell was talking about Follow Your Bless.
And he says, if you follow your bliss, you'll get the bliss. And so that's what I did. I didn't know what it was, but I left my job with no job in sight. And for two years, I just explored who I wanted to be when I grew up. And that's the same thing. Sometimes we have this idea that, OK, so at that time, 1989,
I was 38 years old.
George Mumford (40:41.062)
So it's know, midlife prices, whatever it's like, you know What do you mean you're trying to figure out what you want people you go well because we're gonna have multiple Jobs and experiences because we change everything else changes and so we got we got a change with it gonna be like water and so I gave myself the the
George Mumford (41:05.612)
the opportunity to reset the opportunity to just look at okay if I only have six months to live what would I be doing or whatever now I can do what I really wanted to do because that was the whole thing when I got clean I one of the things I realized was I have this need to be into you know
intellectually stimulated. Now I see it as pursuing excellence and wisdom with grace and ease. But back in the day, would do study, I'd read something once and if I didn't get it too bad, and then I'd get myself permission. You can read it as many times as you want, till you understand it. That's the important thing. Don't be in a hurry. You want to understand it. Once again, slow is smooth, smooth is fast. And so I did that. And it kept evolving and keep...
Because my experience is, and I've been recovering for 40 years, there's a gentleman, his name was Warren Bennis, and he wrote a book called, I'm Becoming a Leader. And he said to be a leader, you gotta be yourself. So now we're talking about authenticity of being who you are. And that was my thing, I'm being who I am. I was a financial analyst because my high school basketball coach told me that accountants make good money.
That's where came from. wasn't something that was heartfelt that said I want to do that. I was really good at it, but it's not what I wanted to do. when I opened up, I started listening to myself. That's still small voice that's easily drowned out. There's a lot of wisdom that comes out of it. And I said, no, let's understand it. And so I read books and I became a seeker. But learning is the thing. You got to be a learner.
That's a competitive edge or seeking wisdom, however you want to call it. But yeah, for me, that's what that's what it came down to is just really understanding that and giving myself the opportunity. So anyway, one one Venice said self -knowledge and self -invention are lifelong processes. So what does that mean? That means that. For your whole life, you're going to have to keep because everything changes.
George Mumford (43:15.562)
Even how you see yourself is changing. You're gonna get old, you're gonna die, you're gonna get sick. The things you like might be taken from you or you might be confronted with things you don't like. That's just the way it is. But it's your attitude, it's how you relate to it. It's gonna determine whether you're free or you're struggling to be free. And both of those are fine verses feeling like you have no, that you're a victim of circumstance like Carl used to say on Three Students.
Know that you can choose your response no matter what You get to choose the attitude you want to relate to and this is what Victor Franco talks about the ultimate freedom The essential freedom is choosing to have an attitude. Okay, so i'm dying or yeah, i'm in this situation But I can come I don't have to lose my dignity. I don't have to lose who I who I want to be how I want to how I want to go out When when they go so what
Tim (44:12.338)
Do you think you had to hit rock bottom in your life to have the inclination to become more aligned with who you truly were as a person?
George Mumford (44:25.89)
Yes, that's why I call it the AOF method of motivation, Ass on Fire. You know, there has to be a sense of urgency. Now, when I first started doing this, yeah, I had my butt literally on fire. And even I know people who have their butt on fire, but they deny it. That once again, if you don't accept it, you're going to deny it or ignore it. But I think it's really more about you have to have the want to. You have to want something different.
You have to you have to want something and realize what's happening this in the way is actually the way It's dealing with that but but a sense of urgency is important. You have to have the one too and I was reading somewhere where this gentleman was talking about What was his name He's a running back for Chicago Walter Payton and he said Walter Payton wasn't the biggest
or the fast is whatever, but he wanted it more than anybody else. So he's a do hill training and he ended up with a liver cancer and I'm not sure if that didn't happen because he outworked, he worked too much. But the thing was no one was going to outwork him and Larry Bird would say it. Well, my boss and I hear him say, well, I got to work hard because I know that dude on the West Coast magic is working hard. So I got to work hard. But but you get you get what I'm saying. Are you?
getting my point.
Tim (45:58.032)
You became one of three residents at Cambridge Insight Meditation Center. And then you got your master's in counseling psychology from Cambridge College. So that's really where you made a big shift in your life after being a financial analyst. When you started teaching, how did that continue to help you with truly understanding who you were as a person, but also now?
helping other people.
George Mumford (46:29.198)
Yeah, so one of things I learned from 12 step recovery was this idea of if you want to keep something, you got to give it away. So in terms of my sobriety, in terms of my breakthroughs on performance level and only for me to keep it, have to give it away. So I have to teach. And if you want to really learn something, you teach it. So those two things have always been drivers for me. The continuing process.
improvement which the Japanese would call Kaizen. Kaizen. Kaizen. You're just, each day, and my success definition I like to use is the one from Earl Nightingale's book, The Strangest Secret. Do you know what The Strangest Secret is?
Tim (47:16.774)
I have not, I know who Earl Nightingale is.
George Mumford (47:19.096)
Okay, you become what you think about. So he says success is the progressive realization of a worthy ideal or goal. So you don't have to wait until you get totally to the mountaintop, but each step is a success and you keep moving it. You keep moving it that way. And so I forget, was the question again?
Tim (47:45.148)
just about how you got into teaching other people and that how...
George Mumford (47:48.62)
yeah, okay. And so yes. And so I learned and recovered. The other thing is, you know, is one of my Georgisms. You got to forget yourself to find yourself. So oftentimes we feel like we're doing, you know, we're in a funk, whatever, but if we get out of ourself and this is what Scott Peck talks about, is going, extending yourself or extending yourself to other, help someone else's growth or spiritual development, including your own.
So forget myself to find myself and be of service to serve others. And by serving others, I'm serving myself because I and the other are one. So there's this idea that...
George Mumford (48:34.978)
But, how do I want to say this?
George Mumford (48:41.838)
This idea that all that I give is given to me. So whatever I give to you, I'm going to get back. If I give you grief, that's what I'm creating. That's what I'm going give back. If I give you love, that's what I'm going give back. So this idea of being, forget yourself, define yourself. But then it's the paradox, that's paradoxical. But the other part of it is you got to be selfish, to be selfless. And of course we know that from when you get on the airplane and they tell you to put your...
your oxygen on first or you won't be around and put it on the, you know, the help of the other person. And so these are some things that they seem paradoxical, but if you look at them and you experience them, you see that that's true because when you're working on yourself, you also work helping others because what you give, can only give what you have. So if you have it, you give it to you and give it out and you give it and it comes back to you. And when you focus on another person, it takes you out of your stuff, but it helps them by helping them.
It helps you. that make sense? So I talk about this illusion of separateness, not this idea of no self. Yeah, as the illusion of separateness, we have these barriers up, but in reality, I and the other are one connected.
Tim (49:56.2)
So you obviously became a very evolved person when you started teaching other people and it wasn't so much just doing for the work for yourself, but it was now sharing your knowledge through your experiences with other people and getting back to what I said at the start of our conversation where I feel like our best work really doesn't even feel like work. It's more so just an expression of who we are as a person and the experiences that we've gone through in life.
And the next thing I'd love to talk with you about is you were roommates with Julius Irving at UMass. And then you started working with the Bulls later in your career. How do you think your relationship with him prepared you for your work with the Chicago Bulls?
George Mumford (50:49.854)
Believe it or not, I believe all our experiences, everything we've thought of, we've done, we've engaged in has an impact on what we do going forward, depending on how we deal with it. But it helped me in a big way because when I roomed with him, we were friends and we roomed with him, but I was with him when he was doing things. Say, for instance, when he made the jump from callers to the ABA.
I was there, you know, when he played his first, he actually, even before we were really good friends, I was there at his first varsity game, basketball game, because in those days, when you were freshmen, you play freshman ball, you couldn't play all four years like you can now. So I saw his first varsity game, seeing his first semi -pro game, we were still in college and we used to drive to.
New York and he played and I see you his coming out party because he went from playing in it and the college level where we couldn't dunk the ball in the game to going out and then all of a sudden he had all of that stuff and all of a sudden he was was he was free was like he was unlocked and all of sudden he was like all the stuff he was pent up it was pent up was so and at the same time when we were in
college, like even before I got there, they would line up at three o 'clock in the afternoon for a 730 game when he was a freshman. so when he was, you know, in varsity was like that. So he was a celebrity anyway. He went, he had lot of charisma. People would come around him. So he was Michael Jordan before Michael Jordan. So, and I, and I used to go to and hang out with him in Virginia and stuff like that. So I was around, so I was around the pro game.
I understood I grew up in the hood and I was aspiring basketball player although I got injured and my career was over but and I was involved with even when we would entertain recruits I would be involved in hosting them and stuff like that even though wasn't on the team but because he was my roommate and then when he went pro then I had Al Skinner who also went pro and he was still you know on the team.
George Mumford (53:12.706)
So I was engaged in it. So I understood it. I knew, understood the game. And so when I went and worked with the Bulls, I had street cred. Because, know, they knew Dr. J was on Hall of Fame, you know, the ambassador, just an amazing person. Believe it or not, as great as he is as a basketball player, he's a better person.
And so that's, so that set me up, but it was also, even though I had all that, think it was my desire to, not only my desire to succeed, I didn't think about failing because I saw it as a, cause it's my calling. This is why I was born to do this. And I went through all my adversity for this ability to be able to help people. And so for me, it was, I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I wanted to serve. I wanted to be of help.
And at that time, I was still working at the UMass Medical Center. And at that time, it was called the Stress Reduction and Relaxation Program. And it was in what we call the Department of Preventive Behavioral Medicine. So this was all cutting edge stuff. In other words, just focusing on prevention and maintenance versus acute treatment where somebody has an issue and you're trying to deal with it. We're saying, OK, yeah, we could deal with it. But let's
Develop more wellness. Let's let's prevent it from happening in the first place and focus on prevention So it made perfect sense for me to go in and work with them because of my background but also because of what I was how it was trained and My desire to serve I think we underestimate that but it was I didn't know what I was gonna do But I had this curiosity and this this willingness to be vulnerable To go in and figure it out
But I knew in myself that if I could overcome someone's abuse, there's nothing I can't do. I just have to realize that, I'm bat mom foe. I got a masterpiece within. You want to call it Christ consciousness, Buddha nature, divine spark, whatever it is. But I had to grow a mindset before I knew what that was because it was like, I got over that. OK, you know, how do you do it? Let's let's go in and see what's happening. Trial and error. But go in with this idea that it's going to work out and it's going to be great.
Tim (55:33.736)
You started working with the Chicago Bulls in 1993. And one of the things that I think I love most about how you started working with them is that it was just a very natural organic process. It's not like you were looking for that roller, that position. It was more so Phil Jackson going to John Kabat -Zinn asking for somebody like you to bring into the organization. How important was Phil
Jackson to your success with the team.
George Mumford (56:05.966)
Without him it wouldn't work Because he was doing stuff no one else was doing and he was open and it's not something you do You don't trust your team to a stranger. You don't trust your team. You don't let people in the team process like that and as a of I remember because I have a mutual friend and Because I hadn't met Kobe before I started working with the Lakers because my friend Roland Blais and B were saying hey man, this is young kid You got to come see so I went on a roll with Roland
Introduced me and then when he was telling him that I work with the bulls and and You know I was in the process and he said you mean Phil let him in the practice like that and it was like incredulous You know Kobe can't believe that that was something so you have to have Stephen Covey says to all breakthroughs a break with you got to have somebody and Phil being a maverick and Phil Doing things that that other people weren't doing but the thing that was really important about our relationship was the fact that
He saw his players as if they were his congregation. He cared about the whole person and he cared about their well -being on and off the court. And so we were in alignment, so that's why it worked. so we decided we'd see what happened because I was really brought in to help them deal with the stress of success because they had just won three NBA championships in a row. And then the crap hit the fan and then we were in full -blown crisis.
The rest is history, but it really comes down to what I said. know, four A's, awareness, acceptance, compassionate action and assessment. And sometimes a compassionate action is not knowing what you're doing, but you do what you know to do and the next step will be given to you. And then you go from there. But we have an idea of what we want, but how it's going to manifest. And that takes a lot of courage. That takes a lot of faith. And I like to say you don't get to the Hall of Fame.
HOF without what I call a hall of fame hope optimism faith So everybody goes a hall of fame. They gotta have those or you won't get there Just like you won't get the kind of you call you don't practice
Tim (58:22.268)
Yeah, one of the reasons why I love Phil Jackson so much and you talk about this in your book as well as how there's this focus on wellness over winning where you say if you you're not focusing on the player, you're focusing on the full person. And if you focus on wellness and if you focus on the full person, then winning just becomes a byproduct of that. When you're just focused on winning,
George Mumford (58:32.162)
Yes.
George Mumford (58:40.525)
Yes.
George Mumford (58:47.789)
Yes.
Tim (58:51.482)
you're blocking yourself off from so much more growth outside of sports.
George Mumford (58:58.872)
Yeah, it's because now you're in the survival mode. You're in fight, flight, freeze, or you're on your heels, instead of being on your toes. You're more closed down or more high, you know, like tunnel vision rather than being more open. They call it the broadening of both areas, actually. When your mind is that positive, it enhances your cognitive functioning. So you're thinking of how you feel, how you relate to yourself, how you...
deal with subpacks and everything is enhanced. It's actually an advantage to have that broadening build. Being a growth mindset, you're asking what's the...
You know, you know, what's the lesson? And then once again, when I talked about challenge, committed to growth, seeing, seeing something as a challenge, that's what I did with the team. It's like, okay, this is a challenge. Yeah, this is a crisis, but there's two meanings. There's danger, but this there's a challenge here. And this is the thing that people have to understand. Anxiety comes with the freedom. Anxiety comes with the potential. So one side of the coin is, is freedom or potential. The other side is anxiety, uncertainty. They come together.
So when you play at a high level, you perform at a high level, anxiety is your companion, but it's how you relate to it that makes a difference between being stuck or being hindered from seeing clearly or being in a moment or being able to use it as fuel to step up.
Tim (01:00:27.366)
On your work for the Bulls, you said, I had to have a pure relationship with the players and with the work itself, where I wasn't trying to use them and what went on between us to promote myself. Do you think it's a necessity for sports psychologists or people like yourself who work with high level athletes to stay unknown or kind of act as their own independent entity within the organization?
George Mumford (01:00:53.516)
What do mean?
Tim (01:00:55.536)
Almost like obviously with coaches, you're on the front lines and you're also playing into the entertainment and the business side of things or, you know, you're in the spotlight. But do you think as your role as a sports psychologist to get the most out of the work and get the most out of the players, you have to be just fully devoted to the players own wellbeing and their own wellness. And do you think a way that you have to do that is by staying out of the spotlight?
George Mumford (01:01:26.2)
Well, think the interesting thing about formulas, the interesting thing about what I'm doing and people say, what's the formula? And I say the formula is there's no formula. You got to go by what's required, what's here and what's required and what makes sense, what works, what doesn't work. So it's not like saying, OK, being in the shadows or being upfront, it's not so much that. It's about, like say when I say this,
people I work with, yeah, the organization, yes, I'm working for the organization, but the person's well -being is always going to take precedent. And so if you're not in alignment with my values, then I'm probably not going to be a good fit. But at the same time, it's not either or, it's yes and. Yes, we have to develop the me, or the we, is take precedent over the we. And it doesn't have to be a situation where
The we is going to grow if we decimate the me or we mistreat the me. I would say if you mistreat the me, you decimate the me, you're going to have a weaker we. And so you can do both. You both can grow. But as you can see in the game, some people choose to take the money and go somewhere else. And some people or the organization might say do not
Resign somebody because of the money or not resigning because it's not a fit and go with somebody else It's a business at the same time But at the same time how you treat each other? It's really freaking important And so this idea of me It's not about me. I'm fine not being in a limelight And I'm fine being in a limelight if that's what my job requires me to do and so it's like
The personality has nothing to do with it. has to do with the function of the job, what the job requires. And this PASH, you know, I worked on a lot of teams where in the background you don't even know I'm there. And this PASH, I worked with the Edmonton Oralists. And one of the things that happened is when we won the Worcester and Coats, Worcester Conference Finals, I went on ice to congratulate the guys with.
George Mumford (01:03:50.078)
some of the other support staff. so then people saw me and they got mics now that they could see what you're saying. So I one of my guys, said, man, I said something personal to him and they could hear it. So obviously, got to be you got your language has to be good, which might happen, happen to be. But and but we're very conscious of working with, you know, just getting myself. I mean, sorry, Jeff Jackson and
I'm talking about I was talking about skin of the goalie that my first time working with them intended they wanted to interview me but I didn't really give a personal interview until February in Boston where I live and and it was a half you know after the first quarter they interviewed me and people started to get to know who I was but
We've always kept it where the players always first. my thing is I'll do whatever they ask me to do if they want me to be up front and talk. I will. If they don't, I don't have to. See, the interesting thing about my experience is when I work with people, I work with the elite of the elite. I've been involved, I think, just last, I'm trying to think. I don't know if was my ninth or tenth finals. know, eight NBA championships have been engaged in teams that won it.
8 NBA championships and so I'm not and I worked with Michael Kobe now, know the you know, Scottie Pippen Dennis Rodman's killing there a lot of people I've worked over in England with Chelsea and all this so I've worked with the League League. It's not about that. I don't have to work with you. So you can say, yeah, yeah, I work. It's not about that. But I think all of that stuff is happening because I was following my bliss and doors open where there were no doors, but
I've been lucky. Now luck is when preparation meets opportunity. So I've been working my ass off and out working people and whatnot, but not in order to get something. I was working my ass off and doing what I was supposed to do because I want to be the best what I do, but I had to be the best version of myself. So I'm always pushing myself to get a little bit better each day. And so some people would be thinking I'm retired. I'm pretty sure a lot of people were surprised that I was still
George Mumford (01:06:15.534)
Kicking and doing this thing all these years later because you got to understand When I was room with dr. J. I was in 70s I Was working with the bulls that's the 90s I'm working with Kobe the you know and the Lakers that's 2000 even you go to 2010 or even more and then now working with with with other teams and other players I work with this 2020 24
So you think about all those decades, you're going from the 70s to almost the 30s, 2030. And the thing is, I feel like I got better. I'm keeping getting better and I'm not done yet. so it's not about, it's about just what I'm being the model, I'm modeling what I'm saying. It's like, you just keep getting better, you keep evolving.
Tim (01:06:47.08)
And you don't look a day over 50.
George Mumford (01:07:13.42)
and you keep being a service but it's because I want to be a service. I don't need it. can say I don't have to do anything. It's not about that. It's about me doing what I love to do and being a service. As long as I think I can help somebody, I'm going to keep doing this. The day I don't think I can be helpful, I won't do it.
Tim (01:07:34.182)
Yeah, you clearly have deep roots and like I've said multiple times throughout our conversation, I feel like that is because it would have to stem from your own personal experiences and how you've used all the stuff you've learned and applied it into your own life first. And now you're teaching it with everyone else. And one of the main reasons that you started with the Bulls or why Phil Jackson wanted you to join the organization is because when Michael Jordan left to play baseball, he wanted somebody to
George Mumford (01:07:44.098)
Mm -hmm.
Tim (01:08:03.858)
help with the team and like you said, deal with that transition period. But then obviously Michael Jordan comes back and you start working with him as well. How did him coming back to the Bulls impact you and your work?
George Mumford (01:08:22.038)
Let's just say this correct a little bit when I When I was selected to work with the Bulls it was With the intention that MJ was going to come back in between then that's when he left But was your question again repeated one more time?
Tim (01:08:39.932)
Just how when you did work with the Bulls for that one season without him, but then he does come back.
George Mumford (01:08:47.086)
Well, was, yeah, it was 18 months, but when he came back, it was, I mean, was, I mean, he's very culture, both very humble, very hungry. it was, it was like, we didn't miss a beat. We didn't miss a beat because he, you know, he could see the value of it and it can see how much it's helping the team. And, you know, just like with Kobe, we just hit it off because, you know,
We want the same thing. We're pursuing excellence and wisdom. there's there's a, and of course, once again, I got street credit because of Dr. J and, and all the people I work with. Then now Michael, then Kobe, then, know, whether I worked with Mello or now working Shauna. I mean, now working with, Connor McDavid or Leandro Acedo or, or the whole team, Zach Hyman, whoever, Skinner.
I mean, I can name a bunch of them, but it's not that it's more about authenticity. I believe it's really more authenticity than achievement. But if you're authentic, you probably have a better chance of achieving your goals than if you don't. And so, yeah, it's like I had no idea that was going to happen. I mean, I'm sitting, you know, not quite a year ago, but let's say last August.
I'm sitting minding my business, I need to do. And I get a message on LinkedIn from this gentleman, Jeff Jackson, said, hey, can we talk? I'm the CEO of the Edmonton Oralist. And I'd like to talk to you about coming to help us win a Stanley Cup.
George Mumford (01:10:34.926)
Like said, doors open where there were no doors. There's something about when you do what you're supposed to do and you're not through until you're through as Yogi would say, ain't over until it's over. Yogi Berra that is. So that's it. So I have no idea what's going to happen moment to moment. And guess what? You don't either. No one knows what's going to happen in the next unfolding moment. But what we do know is you get to choose how you respond to it or react to it. And you get to choose and figure out.
Tim (01:11:02.236)
and it's about leading.
George Mumford (01:11:04.248)
what you need to be, but without that sense of urgency, without the desire to succeed, without the want to, you're not gonna get consistently elite performance, excellent performance, would say pure performance, I would even say that. Because sometimes you do your best and you still ain't gonna win. I had nothing to do with it. You're still a winner. If you can walk away and say, you know, I did all I could do. I can't control the results, but I can control what I did.
and I gave everything I had, I got better today.
Tim (01:11:36.858)
You had an up close view, obviously, to Michael Jordan. What makes him so special?
George Mumford (01:11:44.222)
It's probably a lot of things, but I'd say all you got to do is look at his reactions to life. Let's look at it that way. Okay, he's in the 10th grade in high school and he gets cut from his basketball team.
So by the time I met him, 1995.
George Mumford (01:12:06.754)
He had to like he was still trying to make the team.
George Mumford (01:12:14.06)
Got to say anything else? Something happens, he interprets it in ways that move and spies him. He's never getting cut again. Nothing personal. And then when the dude came, when he got inducted, he said, dude, you made a But that mistake probably made MJ who he is. You understand what I'm saying? And so what makes him great is his mental toughness, his ability.
To do things, I'll give an example. When he came back in March, and I think he had them on the East Coast. think he played in Madison Square Garden, scored 45 points. I don't know if it was before or after. But anyway, came to Boston. When the team would come to Boston, I would work with them the day of the game. When the coaches would go off, and we'd work with them, and I'm teaching them, showing them some moving stuff and whatnot. And he's got this.
He's got the stem thing on his finger because his finger was hurt I said, and then you know You don't have to do this and we're gonna do some some sun salutations or whatever with some stretching And he said no, I'm gonna do it
George Mumford (01:13:25.688)
Do I need to say anything else?
Tim (01:13:29.17)
being the ultimate learner and just putting the ego aside and
George Mumford (01:13:33.362)
And he's going to do more than you ask him to do. It's just so the will to win is one thing that the desire to succeed, but also being humble and hungry. There's a lot of that there that you got to want to. So everybody will say, yeah, but they don't have it like that.
Tim (01:13:45.202)
How long?
Tim (01:13:55.048)
How long into working with him did it feel like a real personal relationship had been built?
George Mumford (01:14:03.074)
From my end, don't know, you have to ask him. I think because I always use him as a role model. I mean, I named my company after him. I have the hurricane because even before I knew my watch and play and he seemed to get more comments, things got more chaotic. And the more pressure, the more calm he got. So you have to ask him. But it was like, you know.
We speak the same language, you have the same values. It doesn't take long. And plus, you know, seeing me working with other people and seeing that Phil trusts me and the other guys felt good about me. yeah, we just hit it off at me being my situation with Dr. J. I mean, it's like, that's quite a lineage, Dr. MJ, Kobe Bryant.
to my wife, Anthony, Conor McDavid, whatever, on and on and on.
Tim (01:15:08.752)
Yeah, but like you were saying, which is so powerful and great to see is that obviously those are all incredible athletes within the history of sports elite names, but it's not just about helping the player. It's about helping the person and it doesn't matter who that person is, whether they're at the top of their sport or if they're incarcerated and in prison. Like I know you've worked with a lot of prisoners as well. It doesn't matter who it is.
George Mumford (01:15:24.016)
That's it.
George Mumford (01:15:36.236)
Yeah, yeah, like Shaq, see Shaq or Robert or I mean, I can name thousand people. I mean, it's like, you you went to Steve Kerr, you go through the wars with him. It's about the relationship ships. That's how it grows. My relationship with Phil, my relationship with every single person is about the relationship. It's like it doesn't matter who they are. So it doesn't matter if you're MJ or your your no name.
Tim (01:15:58.748)
Yep.
George Mumford (01:16:05.75)
It doesn't matter. I'm going to relate to you in the same way, the same care and compassion and wanting to help you be the best you can be. That's why it's not like everybody's going to be an MJ or Kobe or whatever. Your job is to be the best version of yourself. My job is to help you unlock so you can express that and share it with the rest of us.
Tim (01:16:30.418)
You've said that when you work with kids, you like to express your shy, vulnerable side and let that kid out and let them out to the surface. What type of person did you try to bring to the surface when you worked with the Bulls and the Lakers?
George Mumford (01:16:48.034)
I wasn't thinking about it like that. See, that's the interesting thing. I you said, I ain't letting nothing happen. It just happens.
You know what saying? There's something about kids that young people, because they're innocent and what you see is what you get. You gotta be real with them, man. You're not real with other people, but they know it, man. And they're on a non -verbal level. So they're gonna tell you how they feel. there's something about retaining your childlike qualities of...
living in the mystery, being excited about everything. And you know, when they learn how to walk, you know, when they fall down, they don't get up in front of me. They just get up this fall and they keep going and they can fall down maybe a hundred thousand times. Doesn't matter. They always try to get up. Now, if we try to learn how to walk now, we fought, we probably say, okay, I'm gonna give myself five times out of five, I'm done.
you know, or somebody sees you fall off, man, I'm not doing this when anybody's looking. That sort of thing. Because the ego gets in and back then they see the world and everything is being connected. And it's just something, you know, innocent about them not being a Johnist or being programmed by the culture or by the people they've been hanging around with or the world marvels they've been learning.
Tim (01:18:22.152)
Couldn't agree with you more when you're a kid and you experience failure. It only motivates you more because you have that pure childlike energy view. But like you were saying, the ego gets built up in your head when you're an adult and it forces you to see failure in a much different way. When you started working with the Lakers, you initially said that Kobe was the closest thing that
You saw to Michael Jordan, but then you realize that he was his own person and his own player. What made him a one of one?
George Mumford (01:18:53.059)
Mm
George Mumford (01:19:03.458)
Everybody knows it as a mom of mentality. There's a hunger and a thirst for knowledge but it's also is that killer instinct and it's also this mean this unshakable belief and that sort of thing so sometimes the stories are it's really helpful so
I kept seeing him being the closest in the MJ and I worked with both of them very closely and mentally and you know, won championships with both of them or they won championships with me, you know, without my support. Maybe they do it, they could do it without my support, but I was lucky enough to be in there and be part of the process. But I think for him, as you know, his desire to succeed and his willingness
this hungry and being hungry and humble and and working morning by talk about work. I mean when I when I first met you know I remember I heard about him before we got there and I think he shot a couple of air balls and so when he goes back home to where he was living in and Newport Beach.
George Mumford (01:20:26.924)
He called the custodian, had the custodian open up the gym and he shot for eight hours.
George Mumford (01:20:36.142)
Now, first of all, it's amazing. How the hell does he have a custodian's number? But that's Kobe. That was Kobe, man. You know, that was him. I mean, he would do things like that. You get what I'm saying? You know, and I remember when when when in 2015, he called me up and had me come out and hang out with him for a little bit. And
So i'm thinking i'm just gonna stay in newport beach I wasn't gonna go to the united center. Well the staple center, which is now I think it's cryptos .com. I forget what they call it now, but they still call it the staple center So staples still getting their money but But I remember talking to him and There's a few times that I could talk to him and it was just us and not security or other team members or whatnot and
And I remember he said, hey, I want you to go to game with me tonight.
George Mumford (01:21:42.782)
I said, okay, I'll go. didn't have a suit or anything, but you know, there's a picture of him walking through there. That's the only picture I have working with these guys because it's very private. And he says, well, Lemo will come over and get you at such and such a time. said, Lemo, what do mean? He says, yeah, Lemo will take you to the airport and then we'll take the helicopter. And I said, man, how long you been taking the helicopter? And then he told me, I said, I never knew that.
But he would be doing things that nobody else would do. Or what you doing to someone? I'm working on my three point shot. 1300 made threes every day. That's the mama mentality, but it's always been there. But then he started sharing it with people. And then when he hurt his finger and he couldn't hold the ball and he didn't miss a game and he changed his shot in mid season, nobody does that.
And that's when I said, no, I got to, he's his own person. can't, you know, I'm not going to keep comparing them to MJ. Of course, you've been being mentored by MJ and he said it, you know, in public that, you know, what you see in me, it got from him. So you can't compare us.
Tim (01:22:56.796)
With MJ and Kobe, did you ever get the impression like they were trying to compete with other people or was it just the ultimate competition of competing with themselves?
George Mumford (01:23:10.998)
Well, Michael would compete with anybody anytime. I think it's not either or. think it was both. I think by competing with other people that they wanted to push themselves out of their comfort zone. And if you're not out of your comfort zone, you're not learning. And you can see when MJ retired is because he didn't have the motivation to be the best. Besides, know, grieving is that, but that's ultimately what it was.
is that you have to have that itch, you have to have that desire, that will or win, that desire to succeed. Because it's a tremendous amount of effort and discomfort you have to go through. You have to get comfortable being uncomfortable and you have to tolerate a lot of cognitive dissonance, a lot of unpleasantness. It's part of the process.
Tim (01:24:03.59)
It's one thing to coach someone and give them the tools to succeed, but hearing you talk, feel like it's not just about the teaching, but it's also about the teacher and that transfer of energy. Why do you think you were able to connect so deeply with two of the best athletes in the history of sports?
George Mumford (01:24:19.661)
Mm
George Mumford (01:24:34.1)
I it has a lot to do with, see the way I operate, the way I think about it is when I'm working with somebody I'm not working with their personality, I'm working with their divinity, the divine spark, their masterpiece within. So I'm relating to the masterpiece and part of my job is to hold the space so that people can grow into it. But it's not what I think is who they are. That makes sense. And of course I'm coming up with reasons but I don't know.
I mean, it's like sometimes we have this ability or we have this tendency to say, is the reason, this is what's happening, whatever. But there's so many different things that go with it. The context, the level of consciousness, the readiness of the, it's like you send a message, the message will be received clearly if the receiver is working properly and receiver is open and willing to let the radio waves in or whatever it is.
the vibration, the energy in. So there's so many different things and then timing is everything. It's your state of mind. It's like you catch me on a funky day. It'll be different than catching me on a day where I'm feeling like all's right with the world. You understand what I'm saying? And so there's a lot of different things, but that's something I'll probably contemplate and think about. Because sometimes it's not.
Like how do I want to say this when you're in flow when you're just in the moment There's a wisdom and creativity can express itself if you can get out of the way that goes beyond all human research or Joseph Campbell would say it's beyond all human research or you know the dial that can be named is not the dial it's it's it's still a mystery and it's and it's it's powerful is amazing But it's not something that you can kind of just
just described with words, if that makes any sense. But you can see it. It's just like we don't see electricity, but we can see the impact it has.
Tim (01:26:41.82)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
George Mumford (01:26:43.192)
We don't even know what electricity is. can kind of talk about it, but we know how to make it work and to see it. It's the same with chemistry. I hear coaches say, yeah, I don't know what it is, but I know what it looks like when you have it. And some other things is we don't know what it is, but we know what it looks like when it's not there.
Tim (01:26:59.59)
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And what I would probably say is when you have that transfer of energy, it can't always be put into words, but it's more so can only be seen and can only be felt.
George Mumford (01:27:05.635)
Yeah.
Yeah, but it's a dance. It's not just one tie. It's a dance.
Tim (01:27:14.384)
Yeah, it's the relationship between the two people. My final question for you. What is the future of your hero's journey look like?
George Mumford (01:27:32.712)
What does it look like?
It looks like no.
Tim (01:27:39.922)
I like that answer.
George Mumford (01:27:41.987)
This is it. It's like this moment. This is what it looks like. Yeah, but to me what I hope it looks like is, you know, we can just be in the moment and be in joy and support each other to be the best version of ourselves. That's what it's about. It's like how do we create space or as they like to say, my booboo.
This idea in this book he called the way of the book called the way of man the has acidic way I forget the exact title but the way of man the acidic teachings or something like that And he said that as human beings we could do something the angels can't do You know that is
whatever we, we can make things holy by holy intent.
You can have something you can make it holy by letting God in or letting that energy that love in wherever we can. We can do that to intention as we can do to the angels can't do.
Tim (01:28:49.074)
George, I appreciate you for coming on the show.
George Mumford (01:28:51.17)
Yeah, I appreciate you for your questions and your interest and your inviting me. So thanks, Tim.
Tim (01:29:00.572)
The pleasure is all mine. Where can people go to support you and your work?
George Mumford (01:29:05.986)
Yes, so you can always go to my website georgemumford .com and go to their website and there's all sorts of things there and it just so happens we just released my 200th episode of At Home with George that's on the YouTube channel and of course you know they can go to Amazon or Bonds and Nobles or whatever and my two books The Mindful Athlete's Secret to Pure Performance which came out in
2015 and the one that just came out last year unlocked embrace your greatness find the flow discover success and of course if they were to Google me to be all kind of stuff that comes up but the main thing is my website and and I hope people can go and and check it out and you know that I think there's probably some free stuff on there people can download or whatever but yeah so that's it yeah appreciate you man
