The Outworker
The relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect. These conversations will hopefully allow you to develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#030 - Erik Weihenmayer - Redefining Blindness By Conquering Mount Everest & The Grand Canyon
Erik Weihenmayer shares his journey of overcoming blindness through adventure. He discusses finding community in sports, and breakthrough experiences in climbing and kayaking. Erik offers insights on climbing Mount Everest, kayaking the entire Grand Canyon, and the necessary teamwork and mental preparation for completing each mission. He reflects on external recognition, the balance between achievement and identity, and the importance of vulnerability. Erik also explores the philosophy of adventure and his evolving sense of purpose, emphasizing the value of living in the moment over constantly pursuing the next goal.
Timestamps:
00:00 The Diagnosis and Initial Struggles
04:12 Finding Community Through Wrestling
05:14 The Breakthrough of Climbing
08:40 The Journey to Everest
22:45 Mental Training for Everest
24:46 Summit Everest
29:37 Navigating Recognition and Purpose
36:15 Don't Be Defined by What You've Done
38:54 Creating No Barriers
40:00 The Journey to Kayaking the Grand Canyon
47:37 The Open Heart Policy
51:27 Being in Control & Submitting to Environment
56:59 Lonnie Bedwell
1:01:30 Always Needing to Prove Yourself
1:09:51 Completing Grand Canyon Kayaking Adventure
1:11:13 Reflections on Life's Journey
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What’s up outworkers. Erik Weihenmayer shares his journey of overcoming blindness through adventure. He discusses finding community in sports, and breakthrough experiences in climbing and kayaking. Erik offers insights on climbing Mount Everest, kayaking the entire Grand Canyon, and the necessary teamwork and mental preparation for completing each mission. He reflects on external recognition, the balance between achievement and identity, and the importance of vulnerability. Erik also explores the philosophy of adventure and his evolving sense of purpose, emphasizing the value of living in the moment over constantly pursuing the next goal.
Tim (00:07.852)
When did your eyesight completely give out on you?
Erik (00:18.314)
In about a week before my freshman year in high school, so I was I was diagnosed with this rare rare eye disease retinus, Jesus juvenile retinus, probably about four. My dad started noticing that I wasn't tracking like my eyes weren't tracking when he would like throw me a football or something like that. And so that led to a bunch of doctor visits all around the country and finally stumbled upon the.
like part of Mass General is I think it's called Mass Eye and Ear and they had this retinal specialists and this doctor, Dr. Brockhurst, he diagnosed it as this rare disease and he said there's no cure and you will be blind unfortunately by an early teenager. My response was just to block it out and deny it and you know, reject that proposal. But...
Whether I liked it or not, I lost a lot of sight all through middle school. And I remember a week before freshman year, it going to the point where I I couldn't take a step. Like I couldn't take a step in front of my in front of me. And I I I know what I was going to do. It was like getting hit in the head with a baseball bat, you know, because it doesn't matter how many times people warn you and tell you, get prepared. You're just you're not ready.
Tim (01:47.726)
So you talked about how when you got that initial diagnosis, you blocked it out. What was the process like of finally coming to acceptance with that darkness, both from a literal sense, but also a figurative sense?
Erik (02:03.016)
Yeah, no, I'd say you're right. It's a lot of darkness at that time. feeling, you know, teenagers and kids feel like they're alienated already. You you feel isolated. And so I felt like that, you know, like I felt like it was just me on this island. And I, know, the bridge between me and the world had broken and I didn't know how to handle myself. I didn't know how to see myself. I didn't know how to see other people and their relationship to me. I felt like
you know, like an egg, you know, that like a rotten egg that had been like squashed in the hallway. And people were kind of walking around me like, know, you know, how do I, how do I deal with this guy? And it was partly because I was so it was partly because I was so uncomfortable with myself, right. And that reflects on other people. So so because I was so like, it was so new and raw and I was so hesitant.
I think that made me, believe it not, more isolated. But I remember sitting in the cafeteria and just listening to all the excitement and laughter and joy and like food fights, honestly. And all the kids are over there having fun and joking around and I'm sitting at this table by myself and listening to life go by. And so for me, that was a great fear. I wanted to be in the action. I wanted to be...
in the adventure. And so I didn't know how to get back, know, how to break through that brick wall. I guess over time, you know, things heal, right? That anger, you figure out how to channel it, you know, you figure out that there are some doors open for you still. I joined the wrestling team. I remember tapping my long white cane down the hallway after school one day, I'd heard that blind people could wrestle. And the captains of the team invited me to come out
dry out and I tapped down the hallway and went to that stinky wrestling room that smells like nasty sweat socks and that team became my absolute family, know, my community, just the glue that held so many things together for me because I could compete with people, I could be a part of a team. Blindness was a part of my life but it wasn't the biggest part, you know, there were things bigger than me and my problems.
Erik (04:32.618)
And that was the team, you know, and so that that felt great and that's always my advice to people who are going through loss Go out and join something become a part of something that's bigger than you That you can you know kind of give your soul to that thing
Tim (04:51.63)
So wrestling helped you find that community with other people and build that relationship with others. How did climbing allow you to build that internal relationship with yourself?
Erik (05:07.754)
Climbing was another kind of breakthrough for me. couldn't participate back in the 80s, the way, you know, like schools tried to do a good job, you know, with their disabled kids, but it was a newer thing. Kids who are blind being mainstream, so they didn't know how to quite handle when everyone's playing baseball and basketball, you know, I couldn't do that. so they would have me go in and lift weights and things like that. I could run on the treadmill, but I missed out on ball sports. So
My dad heard about this program for the blind, this recreational program. and, it was out of the Carroll center for the blind in Massachusetts. And my dad would drive me from Connecticut three hours once a month to this, place where we would leave and embark on these adventures, tandem biking, sailing, canoeing. there was like a ropes course. I think I remembered we went fishing.
Might have mentioned horseback riding, but anyway, they took us a rock climbing In New Hampshire North Conway, New Hampshire, and it was these beautiful granite Faces domes And I was a good athlete, know, it's like a you know spit from wrestling I was a thin little muscly guy and I remember just scampering up the face and thinking this is so beautiful so like I don't know like in a way like free to
use my hands and my feet as my eyes and problem solve my way up the rock face and just absolute engagement, you know, against the rock and, and, and trying to figure out the patterns in the rock as my hands swept across the face, trying to get your body from point A to point B, you know, with these crazy like body positions, it was just so engaging. It was so fun. And then I got to the top and it was,
Like I thought like I fear that like the adventure of my life might be over, you know, you know, like in the cafeteria, just worrying that like I'd be on the sideline my whole life. And, and I got, you know, like a hundred feet up and I sat in this little pocket in the rock and, I was starting to learn as a blind person, how to use echolocation. There's an expert who calls it flash sonar. It's basically listening to
Erik (07:30.312)
sound vibrations move out into space and bounce off of objects. And I was listening to the valley below me and I could hear the trees and the leaves blowing and I could hear kind of life down in the valley below me. And I was way up high and I just thought this is adventure. This is the adventure I thought I'd lost. Alert, try and reconnect dot dot dot make sure. Are we offline? We good still?
Tim (07:59.68)
No, we're
Erik (08:00.934)
Alright cool, yeah, am I cutting in and out?
Tim (08:04.118)
just for one second there, but we're good now.
Erik (08:06.452)
All right, let me open this door. that's a...
I always think that's gotta be so stupid that you have to open a door to get better Wi -Fi in your house, but maybe it's the case. I'm not sure. So, so that was my first experience rock climbing and it was so powerful. I just kept climbing. wasn't like, you know, like in the movies where you like stand on top and you pound your chest, you say someday I'll climb Mount Everest, but definitely like you would never know this, but that was the beginning of this.
Tim (08:18.552)
The little things.
Erik (08:40.074)
really amazing journey of 16 years later I was standing on top of the world. So it definitely impacted the trajectory of my life.
Tim (08:54.102)
My senses awakened. Every sound, smell and touch was so vivid, so brilliant. It was almost painful. The adventure in my life was just beginning. You've climbed the seven summits, but just speaking specifically about Everest, you initially made the silent commitment just to yourself that you were going to make that climb. How long did it take for you to tell other people?
Erik (09:24.49)
Well, you know, before I committed silently to climbing Everest, it really was more about living that adventuresome life. You know what I mean? Like, how was I going to express myself in the world and and enjoy life and and and get beauty and fulfillment from life? You know, my dad, who was a great mentor of mine, used to say to me, Eric,
I don't care if you ever break records or anything like that because I was a pretty decent wrestler and I was breaking a few records. He said, I don't really care about that. He said, I just want you to live a fulfilling life. so for me, back to that cafeteria, I remember even then thinking, I want to live this life of adventure. I don't want to accept my limitations. I want to be a part of great things and be a part of great teams.
like dictated by my own fears and my own limitations and my own perceptions of what, I think is not possible. And so for me in the beginning, it was really more, I would call it a vision. It was really more like values that I locked into that I wanted to live by. And I think it was kind of that, that, that value system or that vision that, just kind of kept me going back into the mountains and,
Learning, you know, hey, I climbed a hundred foot face. Let's try a two rope pitch climb Let's let me try ice climbing climbing frozen waterfalls. Let me do and I was all I was a teacher at the time for six years so I was a weekend warrior and And it was a buddy of mine Who was a substitute teacher? He was one of my climbing partners who were out there in the desert in Arizona We're climbing these beautiful rock faces. He said he said we should try something bigger
And I was like, what do you mean? Like something bigger. goes, how about Denali? And sure enough, we started training, got excited about that and got sponsorship from the American Foundation for the Blind. And we were on our way. And so then that just kept rolling from one adventure to the next. I read a book called The Seven Summits by Dick Bass, who was the first person to climb the tallest peak in every continent. And I thought, wow, that'd be a cool adventure.
Erik (11:52.668)
And after about three or four of the seven summits, that's when I started thinking about Everest. And yeah, but then you think like, am I crazy? Like, am I really going to say this out loud? Because once you say it out loud, there's kind of like a power, like an energy that happens where now you're committed to it. And so, yeah, it takes a while to kind of get over that hump to get both feet in the water. Because, you know, you have to weigh the, you have to weigh the realism of it. You know, like a lot of people were telling me,
Everest was not possible for a blind person because when you get high up on the mountain and you're in what's called the death zone, your brain is really reduced to like this kind of reptilian almost instinctual reflexive kind of state. And, and so you, you have to have all your full senses to be able to kind of combat that and stay safe and be aware of your surroundings and the, and the potential dangers and the weather.
And so without sight, they just said, that's an overwhelming combination against you. so, you know, like had to listen to all that and weigh it. Thankfully, like the people that I was climbing with, you know, I remember doing the North Face of Mount Adams and it was a 24 hour door to door climb, just moving all through the day and night and summiting and coming back down and staying on your feet in dangerous situations.
And that guy, I remember he had tried Everest twice and he said, you're as good or better than anyone who tries that mountain. You deserve a shot. And, and that gave me a lot of confidence, you know, because it's like a good lesson for me and for maybe others, you know, like who are you going to listen to the people that are judging you on the perception of what they think about you, but they don't know you, right? Just like they're judging you on their own fears and their own ideas of what's possible or not.
Or are you going to listen to the people that know you? Right. And so I was lucky to, you know, choose to listen to the right people.
Tim (13:57.272)
So walk me through the specifics of that climb. What were the systems and logistics that you had planned out to make sure that you were able to be safe and also execute this climb successfully?
Erik (14:09.93)
Well, one, it's finding a team, right? Because no blind guy, as far as I know, is going to climb Everest alone. So you have to find the right team. In fact, you know, there's this, there's this other blind guy who tried Everest, I think it was a few years after me, and he was a perfectly good athlete, right? Good. I think he trained and everything, but he didn't have a really great team around him and he, and he fell on a crevasse. And that was the end of his trip.
So I knew the secret weapon would be to find the right people. And so I was going to the outdoor retailer show. I think it was in Salt Lake City, trying to always get sponsors and things like that. You go around the trade show begging for spare gear and stuff like that. All the dirt bag climbers are there. And friend of mine introduced me to this guy, Pasquale. We call him PV, Pasquale Scatturo. His middle name's Vincent, PV.
And he had tried Everest twice. He had reached the summit once. He had guided or not guided, but led teams all throughout the Himalayas on different 8 ,000 meter peaks. And he walked up to me and he's like, dude, I hear you want to climb Everest. And I'm like, yeah, maybe. And he's like, let's talk more.
I'll lead you up there. I'll be I'll lead the team. I'll organize that help you organize the team. And I was like, sold. Sometimes things just come together like that. And he happened to live in Colorado near near me. And so we started meeting and talking about it and, you know, developing again, like how we're going to fund this because Everest is really expensive. PV and I went to the National Federation.
of the blind, which is an advocacy organization comprised of blind people who advocate for things like braille literacy and employment and technology and education for the blind. And we talked to the president, Dr. Mark Mauer. We sat behind his desk in front of his desk, excuse me. And he said, you know, he's like, don't pull any punches on me. Are you going to climb this mountain the way a sighted person would climb it? You know, you're not going to be carried to the top.
Erik (16:33.834)
and spiked on top like a football, right? And I said, no, I'm going to climb it like, you know, with my own power. and he said, we'll, we'll support this because he said, when you, when you think about blindness in America, he goes, who do you think about? And I said, I think Helen Keller, of course, he's like, you know, she was a wonderful role model, but she died in 1968. He said, blindness needs a facelift, you know, it needs like,
a PR campaign. goes, when people think about blindness, I want them to think about a person standing on top of the world. again, I was like, sold, we can do that. And those guys stepped up and sponsored our climb for $250 ,000. It was a huge, bold leap for this organization where, you know, like 75 % of working age blind people are unemployed. So that was essentially blind people.
doing car washes and bake sales to get me to the top. So I knew this was important and I knew a lot was riding on it.
Tim (17:42.284)
That must have been a massive extra dose of motivation while you were doing the climb, just understanding and appreciating that you weren't just climbing for yourself.
Erik (17:47.444)
haha
Erik (17:52.276)
For sure. And it becomes a little bit of pressure too because you're like, boy, what if I fall in that crevasse right away and have to break my ankle and I'm done, you know what I mean? And all this time and effort and energy, you know, and I let everyone down, know? So there's pressure for sure. But Peevee and I built this incredible team. I'd been climbing for years, so I wanted people who I knew, who I trusted, who knew how to help me and work with me.
And then PV wanted Himalayan experts, just good solid people who know how to be a part of teams. And so we built this just brilliant team around us. We had an architect, we had a geophysicist, we had a couple of doctors, a physician assistant. It was just amazing. And then we went out, believe it or not,
And we we we somehow connected with this company Allegra allergy medication. And I have seasonal allergies. So so there is this kind of like thin connection there. But anyway, they sponsored a film which turned out to be farther than the eye can see that went around the country and around the world for years and winning a bunch of film festivals. But so, the whole thing came into place. And then and then you got to train for two years.
I trained like crazy. You train both physically and mentally and you're training to build the systems that are gonna keep you safe up there. Like, okay, I can't see but I have to put my crampons on, the spikes on the bottoms of your boots and I have to do that with my gloves on and I have to make sure those crampons are gonna lock onto my boots in the proper way. If they don't and they fall off, your foot's gonna slide and you're gonna fall and die. So these...
all these little systems of being able to move quickly and efficiently and safely through the mountains. And then working with my team to develop all the communication systems. How would they guide me through sections like the Khumbu Icefall, which is right out of base camp. And it's like 2000 feet of jumbled up boulders of ice of every size imaginable. Just super volatile ice collapsing and exploding and tumbling down the mountain, crushing the trail.
Erik (20:19.914)
constantly, you know, you're stepping from ice boulder to ice boulder and they're rolling and shifting under your feet. It's really like a blind person's absolute worst nightmare. So we developed all that stuff as a team. And we actually even went to the Himalayas in 2000, year before Everest and tried a peak called Ahmed Ablam, which is about 10 miles from Everest, a very steep, forbidding peak. And we actually failed miserably on that peak as a team.
The monsoons came in and crushed our camping area, our tent site, and the wind was just howling. And eventually we ran out of food and fuel and, and we were like 2000 feet shy of the summit when we turned back. And even though we didn't make it to the top in a way, the way I describe it is like the mountain erected this kind of barricade in our path, you know, that it was a really hard trip.
but, but it was actually kind of by crossing through that barricade that we became a team, like full team. And I know it's like cheesy when people say, the, the, the team is greater than its parts. Right. But that really is what happens. Right. You go into these experiences as, as individuals as good, strong individuals, but you have to figure out how to lean into each other and create that team energy and learn how to communicate and trust each other and rely on each other.
and step up for each other. And so like in a weird way, that crappy expedition full of challenge actually became like the catalyst that made us into a team. And that was really powerful. So we felt pretty poised when we left for Everest the next year.
Tim (22:11.362)
What did the mental training look like for preparing for this?
Erik (22:17.162)
Well, really like things like, going out, I, I'm lucky, I was lucky to live in Colorado. So we had, we have 54, 14 ,000 foot peaks. They're really beautiful. And in the winter, they're just super windy and cold and miserable. And we would pick a peak that we probably had no chance of getting to the summit, but we would, we would go and we'd just be
tromping through the snow. Sometimes we'd be in waist deep snow or chest deep snow. just wading through the snow. just trying to assess the avalanche danger, you know, because obviously you gotta be really careful. and, and we would like say, okay, like we're not gonna, we're not gonna sit down. We're just gonna, we're gonna take all our breaks standing. and, and you know, you'd be out for 10 or 12 hours in the cold.
and the wind and you come back and you're trying to like actually kind of build this immunity to suffering. You're trying to build this kind of container where you can be kind of peaceful and zen even though the elements are like crazy around you because you're like kind of in this cocoon not only like you know with a down jacket or down suit and big boots and gloves and balaclavas and goggles and
helmets and all that stuff, but like a kind of like a psychological cocoon where you can be at peace, even though the world around you is just raging, right? And, and, like, you're just on the edge of, of danger there. But you train your mind to just be calm and, and, and, and, methodical through that. And so that was a lot of the, the mental training, I think.
Tim (24:11.734)
What was the feeling like when you summited?
Erik (24:17.343)
well, my first trip through the Kumbu Icefall.
was probably to this day still like the hardest thing I've ever done. The first time I went, you know, because by the way, so just for people's understanding, you don't climb Everest, just start to finish, right? You actually do this thing called climb high, sleep low. So you climb up high, you're pushing your climatization, your body's ability to like, to build hemoglobin, you know, your body's your cells ability to absorb more oxygen.
So you're going up and down the mountain trying to build that capacity. It's called a climatization. And the first time I made about halfway through the icefall and I like almost had this like panic attack. How am I going to, I'm like trapped on in this nightmarish environment. It's like, you know, the glacier reaches a cliff and it kind of gets squeezed between these two rocks and it collapses down the mountain like a river of ice. So it's just like this.
absolute like take a glacier and explode an atom bomb in the middle of it and that's the Kumbu icefall. So I had to kind of like learn to navigate through that thing and and man the first few trips I just got the crap beaten out of me knowing that every step could kill you trying to move so carefully through that you know zigzagging across crevasses that are like the width of your boot.
jumping across some crevasses and just trying to stick the landing, walking over these ladders, four or five ladders sometimes lashed together across these crevasses that you're trying to stand without my eyes and being able to lock my crampons over the rungs and not fall off into space. You are anchored, but still, I mean, there's the risk there. So the first time through that Kumbo Icefall took me 13 hours and...
Erik (26:15.656)
You know, I just knew that was way too long in that, that dangerous environment. And so I had to, you know, that's the thing about being mentally and physically ready and fit, you know, is that you were able to like wake up and say, okay, today's a new day and I'm going to try it again. the, the, the Sherpas, they have their Buddhists and they have this
this quote that I think I did kind of latch onto at the time. And they said, the nature of mind is like water. If you do not disturb it, it will become clear. And, and I think what they're saying is like your head, like especially gets full of like distraction, right? Like doubt and fears and, and, it just kind of starts to consume the mind and you kind of have to figure out how to let all that stuff.
go and say, hey, I'm here for a reason. It's a clear reason. It's a compelling reason. I deserve a shot on this mountain. I have to let go of all that stuff and just keep my mind still so that I can think and reflect and be fully present in the moment and celebrate each step along the way. And that really did. That was really, really incredibly helpful for me time and time, 10 times up and down through the Khumbu Icefall. So to answer your question in that.
really long winded answer is that standing on the top, was a, it was a, like a retrospective kind of thing because when I got to the top, you're on this little island in the sky and we're hugging and crying and, cheering and, you know, but like your brain hasn't really caught up to be honest with you because you've gone through so much to get there. Your brain kind of
keeps coming back to the summit over the next weeks and months and years. You know, you're like, my body's here, but my brain just can't quite fathom it. And then you can't really let your guard down either, because like the Sherpas are yelling at you, get down, get down, get down, there's a storm coming. So you literally spend two years, maybe half my life training for this mountain, and then you spend 15 minutes at the summit hugging and celebrating.
Erik (28:34.314)
And then you got to get down and 90 % of accidents happen on the way down. If you fall into the mountain on the way up, well, maybe you have a chance, but if you fall on the way down, you're usually going to tumble down the mountain. And so I just remember every step, every step, you know, as a climber, you don't have to be like this brilliant athlete, but you have to be focused and say, you know, every step counts, just the next step in front of me. And so it just takes tremendous focus to get down.
the mountain safely.
Tim (29:08.064)
So you climb Everest successfully, massive accomplishment for you and for the entire blind community. You've been on the cover of Time Magazine. You've received an SB award. You've been on the top of Times Square and a photo of yourself. And you write about something interesting in your book. It's this duality between achievement that feels substantive and achievement that feels about appearance.
Erik (29:17.768)
Yeah.
Tim (29:37.91)
And I would make the case that you've received these types of accolades because your work and your experiences are deeply, deeply rooted in purpose and substance. But those types of things can obviously skew your attentions or maybe just. It brings a new sort of dynamic to the work. How do you think you've been able to navigate that relationship between
Erik (30:02.974)
Yeah.
Tim (30:07.948)
substance and appearance.
Erik (30:11.37)
I mean, it's a really great question. like a lot of answers are simultaneously running through my mind. yes, you are right. Like, you know, after Everest, I got so many opportunities, like people writing me out of the blue saying like, I want to teach you how to slackline and how to like, you know, walk on a tight rope between these two buildings. And, you know, in the book, I was like being silly a little bit. Maybe I was exaggerating a little bit, but I mean, it was literally things like,
we're going to put you in a Velcro suit and catapult you over this, this, this wall, and you're going to stick to a Velcro wall. And it's just like the stupidest things. And I'm like, you know, I'm not like some blind, evil, Knievel guy, just like wanting to do the next thing that gets more attention than the last thing. You know, that's just, I, even at that time, like I felt like that's so dead end, right? Because that's just going to lead you to like, feeling meaningless, you know, like,
None of this stuff really matters, right? And also, I think if you keep thinking of these challenges in terms of like, got to do something harder and more challenging and more dangerous and more risky, that's a dead end road too. That's going to lead to your own demise. So I just kept thinking about what organically, what intuitively challenges me.
and the kind of new challenges that I kept gravitating towards. so it's, it's a very internal, like a deep internal process of like thinking about what matters to you in your life and what's absolute bullshit, you know? but yeah, no, I mean, yeah, you, guess at another level, yes, you can, when you get that fame,
it can kind of take on an energy, you know, and, and it's a, it's kind of a double edged sword, you know, where you're like, you know, you want to keep doing things and you kind of wonder like, okay, am I doing these things because I'm reacting to the world in some way or am I doing these things because they're truly like part of who I want to be in my life. So yeah, there's a lot of internal wrestling, I think, as you have that first
Erik (32:36.54)
massive success that kind of launches you into, you know, whatever, you know, into the world.
Tim (32:44.29)
Was it challenging at all afterwards? Maybe getting opportunities from people with the understanding of, okay, why are they coming to me with these opportunities? Is it truly like you're saying, like the work and what you ask have to do has to feel organic and natural to what you want to achieve rather than simply like, okay, because I'm blind, are people kind of using me for marketing material and entertainment? Have you ever felt like that?
Erik (33:13.618)
Well, yeah, like I remember even when I was learning to like what in rock climbing, it's called lead climbing. So you're the one leading up the rope and people are like, I don't know if you can do that, you know, to like place protection into the crack. Usually you see it, you match the the the camming device with the with the width of the crack and it takes vision. I was like, well, I think I can do that with my fingers. And anyway, I was learning to lead climb and the woman in front of me
was learning too and she fell and swung upside down and smacked her head and blood went splattering everywhere. And she was off to the emergency room and they're like, Eric, well, think, you you shouldn't try this. And I'm like, yeah. And I did. I, I almost fell where she did because it was a really slippery technical section. And I made it through. And I thought, Eric, you know, like, are you just doing this to show people that blind people can do this? Or that?
Or are you doing this because of like, you're trying to, I don't know, figure out what's possible in your own life. You're trying to, you know, celebrate like what is possible, you know, like, are you doing these things for negative reasons or, or for sort of positive reasons where you're kind of trying to grow and challenge yourself and, and fun, rewarding ways, you know? So I do think there is a difference. I never was like super suspicious.
of anybody who reached out to me. In fact, there was a guy named Rob Harsh who reached out to me after Everest and he said, Hey, you climbed Everest. You want to try your hand at adventure racing? And I was like, yeah, you know, sure. That sounds pretty cool. And so I learned about that whole sport and did a couple of massive adventure races around the world and did the Primal Quest, which is like a, I don't know. I can't even remember. It was like nearly 500 miles across the Sierra Nevadas.
biking and climbing and kayaking and I mean, just kind of every sport under the sun navigating the whole time. And we finished those races and, I said, Hey, that's really cool, but I'm not feeling it. And so I moved on. So yeah, no, it's not to say like I didn't try things afterwards. You know, because you, you want to keep your mind open, right? To, new experiences and try new things. I've always kind of had this like say yes to adventure.
Erik (35:36.586)
Policy, you know, hey if I don't really know let me try it and see if I like it some things I've enjoyed and some things I didn't Like maybe five years ago. I thought it'd be kind of cool to screen ski across the Greenland ice cap and a really amazing polar Explorer Took us for four days out on Grand Lake in the middle of the winter which is at like 9 ,000 feet in the Rockies and we skied around the lake for four days and setting up these special tents and
that can survive in these extreme polar conditions. And it was just skiing on kind of flat terrain and my mind was going crazy. I was like, man, this is so boring. So again, not to take away from anybody who's done these incredibly hard polar adventures, but it just wasn't for me. So sometimes you try things and they're dead ends, but sometimes you stumble upon things that feel good again.
For me,
Tim (36:36.65)
It's interesting. It's almost like in a paradoxical way to show that your blindness doesn't define you as a person. It's okay to say, no, I'm not going to do that or I don't need to do that.
Erik (36:53.834)
Yeah, yeah, that does not float my boat for whatever reason. But I did find kayaking and I did enjoy that and I did that for about 10 years. That was really exciting to like be able to say, okay, like in a way like I feel like I figured out how to kind of, I don't know, not flourish, but like feel very aware and in the present in the mountains and
Tim (36:59.862)
Your ex.
Erik (37:20.85)
And I didn't know a lot about rivers. And I thought like, that would be really fun. That'd be a fun challenge is see as a blind person, if I can sort of flourish in this river environment, like the map of the river is totally different from the mountains. And I just thought that would be really exciting to see if I could, if I could do that in my life. And, and so that did feel good. And it's like, you know, so, so these, as I said, all these decisions are just super deeply personal.
for each and every human being.
Tim (37:52.046)
Your expedition leader, Pasquale, gave you some profound words of wisdom as you're climbing down Everest. Don't make Everest the greatest thing you ever do. How did you process that both in the moment, but then also reflecting back on it over time?
Erik (38:11.774)
Yeah, he said it like at base camp after I had reached the summit and I finally got down and I was alive and I was happy like celebrating. was so psyched to just go home and, like walk on a smooth sidewalk that didn't kill me to like laying the grass and listen to the insects and feel the sun on my face and hear my daughter play in the playground.
you know, drink hazelnut lattes and eat croissants. I was psyched, just like, yeah, I'm going to celebrate. And PV throws out this thing. He's like, don't make Everest the greatest thing you ever do. And I thought at first PV, like that's very poorly timed advice. But as it turned out, it was the best advice anyone ever gave me because basically what he was saying was like,
the way I interpreted it eventually after processing it was, you know, look, adversity challenges like blindness can be a huge barrier. and you, and you kind of commit to breaking through those barriers and living more fully, more, you know, in a more present kind of way, but also successes can become barriers. you know, he said, basically, you go home,
you put your trophies on the shelf and you hang your photos on the wall and that room becomes your mausoleum. like, he's like, basically, why are you doing this? Why did you climb Everest? Did you climb it to get famous or to pound your chest and say, look what blind people can do? He's like, you know, this experience essentially is a catalyst.
to more growth, more learning, more impact in the world. And he's like, so don't waste this. So that was like a lot of pressure. Like, what does that mean? Don't waste it. Like, how do I move forward? You know, when I've done the tallest mountain in the world. And he was absolutely right because as you move forward throughout your life, in these different stages, these different ages, like things, new things begin to excite you and awaken new things within you.
Erik (40:24.362)
So yeah, I wrote a bunch of books after that. As I mentioned, I got into kayaking and I kayaked the Grand Canyon. But most importantly, I teamed up with these old friends, a friend Mark Wellman, who's a paraplegic, who basically is a climber and he does pull -ups up the rock face on the rope. And Hugh Hur, who's a double -leg amputee and an amazing climber.
The three of us met and did this adventure together and I was really blown away by those guys and we got together and with some other friends and supporters and started a nonprofit, a movement, an organization called No Barriers. And in the last 20 something years, we've helped thousands and thousands of people with all kinds of challenges to break through their barriers and, you know, tap into the light of the human spirit and like sort of
rediscover purpose in their lives or to figure out how they're going to contribute to the world in some way. It's been really powerful, fun, difficult work. So PV was right. But you have to kind of look at the future in an expansive way.
Tim (41:41.634)
When did you first get that idea for wanting to kayak the Grand Canyon?
Erik (41:48.138)
was back in the Himalayas climbing this, this really stunning ice face. It's called Losar. It's almost 3000 feet of vertical overhanging ice climbing. And it was so far, you know, so much climbing that you actually have to sleep on the side of the, of the ice fall. There's like an actual, like you just climb off to the side and there's like, it was like a icy, gravelly kind of ledge and
You just like crawl into your sleeping bag and just you're miserable the whole night. You know, you're just freezing cold and so forth. And I remember asking Rob Raker, who's a kayaker as well. I was like, I remember you mentioning kayak and he's like, yeah, kayaking is great. You're not freezing cold. You're like in the sunshine. There's a raft sometimes that can follow you that can carry like really good food and in cases of beer. I thought definitely that sounds like my future. So
in the, in the suffering of that massive ice climb, Rob promised that when we got back home, he would teach me how to do what's called a combat role. When we went up to this lake in the mountains and he stood waist deep in his, in his, in his dry suit and, helped me get a very shaky combat role. And after that, I said, Hey, Rob, would you like to guide me down a couple easy rivers? And he said, sure, I'll, I'll do that. So we did a couple of trips on the green river and we just started.
testing out the system and one thing led to another and the next thing I knew I committed to kayaking the Grand Canyon because I had been to the Grand Canyon on a No Barriers expedition, a No Barriers program with blind and sighted kids. were rafting of course and we only did half of the stretch but one of the guides there, Harlan, said, hey if you ever...
learn to kayak, back and I'll guide you down the river. So anyway, I had my team Rob and I had Harlan and I had some other friends that were kayakers and we formed this great team and one thing led to the next. Six years later, yeah, I went down the Grand Canyon and I think it was 21 days it took us.
Tim (44:05.238)
So you were a seasoned climber at the time when you first had the idea of wanting to get into kayaking. How humbling was it to be a beginner again at something?
Erik (44:15.082)
It's everything. It's like, you think that like, you know, your experience in the mountains doing these like big things is going to like protect you or immune you to, to, to challenge in the future. No way, man. I stood on the bank of the Colorado river, in those early days, literally puking on my knees, puking with fear. just knowing that I was about to go into these massive
rapids of chaos with just what I was feeling under my boat and the commands I was getting from my team, which were not always consistent because at the time we couldn't even find like radios that worked in the water like that that were consistent. So it was just people behind me just yelling at the top of their lungs and just hitting rocks and canyon walls and
pinballing off of those things and flipping over and being upside down and trying to get my shaky roll and your elbow just like slamming against the rock and blood splattering everywhere and you're like you're panicking and you're you pull your spray skirt you're swimming for your life blind to these rapids it was a huge huge learning curve and honestly I thought there were days where I was like I can't keep doing this I'm gonna I gotta quit like my nervous system is gonna break
Tim (45:42.648)
Talk to me about the impact of that first trip to the Usumansita River in Mexico.
Erik (45:50.046)
Yeah, we went down this, we wanted to find training rivers. So, we've met this guy, Rocky Contos, who's like this incredible, incredible explorer, kayaker explorer. He's explored like more rivers and throughout, South America than probably anyone else in the world. And he kind of puts together these, these groups of people and he'll kind of guide you down the river, but he doesn't tell you what to do or what not to do. It just gives you his expert opinion.
So it's a very rare opportunity to go with Rocky. And so we went to the Usumacenta. They call it the Grand Canyon of Mexico. It's between Southern Mexico and Chiapas and Guatemala. So you're going down this jungle river with like Indiana Jones ruins along the side of the river, like these sort of half excavated Mayan ruins and howler monkeys and crocodiles, literally 10 foot crocodiles would crawl off of the beach when we would come in.
to camp. Vampire bats. I mean it was wild. the first trip it was supposed to be this manageable river. But it rained and rained for like two weeks ahead of time. And so this is a little bit technical but this river was supposed to be at about 40 ,000 cubic feet per second. And the rain tripled it. was at 120, 140.
cubic feet per second, which is massive, just a massive amount of water running through this canyon. And because of that, it changes the whole dynamic makes everything move way faster. There you can't escape off the side of the river because the waves actually crash up against the canyon walls and they and they eliminate what are called eddies, these calm sections that you can get into and escape. So all that's removed. And and there are the worst part with these whirlpools, vortexes,
for some crazy reason, all the energy from the bottom of the river, like these currents, they rise up and they, and they create these pressure changes so that like these, the water actually creates these giant whirlpools. mean, they were nine or 10 feet deep and they would just appear out of nowhere. These like, you know, just random places. They'd appear right in front of your boat and you go into these things and you just like ride nine feet down.
Erik (48:13.94)
point first and you would start swirling around just trying to get your paddle like somehow to like, you know, bracing as you're getting spun around and around absolutely disoriented. And I got caught in a few of those whirlpools and I just panicked and pulled my skirt and I was swimming. Like, you know, you feel like you're going to drown, you're getting sucked down, like these things will suck your shoes down. And after one of those experiences, I was so panicked.
I was so panicked that I literally had to get in the raft. I was like, I can't kayak anymore. And after that first trip, I actually had trouble getting back into my kayak. I like, I was, I mean, I hate to sound like a wimp, but like, I felt like a little bit like the veterans that we work with at No Barriers. I felt like I had this like PTSD, this trauma, you know, I was having dreams.
at night that I was going down the river and in my dreams I can usually see but in these dreams I was blind and I was getting sucked down the river and I had no guide and I could hear like the roar of the rabbit in front of me so I was having these recurring dreams but yeah no it was was it was hard
Tim (49:31.278)
How did the open heart policy play a crucial component to your training?
Erik (49:41.534)
Well, I think when we are faced with challenges, a lot of challenges throughout your life, a of a crust can build up around you. And you create like an armor around you to protect you from the world because life is hard and you're fragile in the inside.
And we all create this armor, this mask that we kind of hold around ourselves. And the open heart policy for me was like, hey, don't let that crust build up around you. Like, stay hungry, stay vulnerable, stay raw, you know? Because that's when the good stuff happens in your life. If you like, close yourself off to adventure, then you kind of live like in
kayaking vernacular, you kind of live in the eddy, like in the calm sections of the river. And you just kind of spin around. But if you want to be out in the current and the flow of the river, you kind of have to like learn how to let that journey strip away that crust and just be there and be present and be learning. And that just takes a lot of courage and vulnerability to do that. So yeah, it was say yes.
It was keep your heart open. Don't allow that crust to block you out of life. Believe it or not, all the adventures that I've done, have in the past sometimes tended to feel like I was like a spectator in my life, sort of watching me do things through this window. And I've always thought, like, God, try to get rid of that, like that separation, like this beautiful...
part of life when you actually be connected with the things that you're doing in this fully present way. know, scientists have actually studied this kind of this Zen thing that people are trying to achieve in extreme sports. And I definitely experienced that sometimes in the kayak, you know, going through these rapids and instead of being fearful,
Erik (52:06.334)
You know, you get these glimpses of like, wow, I'm not a separate being. I'm part of this environment. And I'm I'm riding this gauntlet between this massive waves on my left and this giant hole on my right. And I'm just squeaking through that gauntlet and I'm hitting these waves and I'm fully there. Like it's all connected and it's beautiful. I hope that doesn't sound like cliche, but literally that.
creates this glow. I remember after one of those rapids in the Grand Canyon, sitting on the beach and I just wanted to be there by myself with my feet dipped in the water, just saying, wow, like that's this whole thing that I think we're striving for is this beautiful connection with our environment and with the people around you and just feeling fully there. instead of this, like, you know, that feeling that I had when I was in middle school and feeling like I was on an island.
separated by a bridge from the rest of the world. And I swear it, you have to describe it as a spiritual experience. And then, and then now those feelings become fleeting, you know, they kind of evaporate and you have to try to strive to find it again.
Tim (53:21.294)
think this is a great question for life, but specifically for kayaking as well. How do you balance being in control of your environment and in the present moment while also submitting to the natural flow of the water?
Erik (53:39.71)
Well, I don't think it's a logical understanding because logic just falls short in this arena. Because.
Erik (53:52.498)
you do have to trust the river. But yet you can't fully trust the river, right? I mean, a lot of times a stream of current will lead you right into like a pile of rocks or like a giant hole that you want to avoid. But definitely in kayaking, you're not in control. You know, the mountains, I guess you're not in control either, but the mountains, they say,
I'm paraphrasing, but they say it's, hours of boredom combined with moments of abject terror. Kayaking is a lot of abject terror. It's really scary. So you're not fully in control. You're riding the energy of this massive, massive force. And yeah, that force can kill you, which it does. Right. And we're all going to die. We're all going to give into that force, but
At the same time, you have to kind of have this faith that the journey that you're on is leading you somewhere where it's a good thing at the end of the road. It's a good thing and you're going to learn and you're going to grow. You just have to have faith, even though despite the circumstances or the potential of danger and death and all that kind of stuff. And again, I don't want to describe it as just being reckless because I had trained for six
years kayaking. had an amazing team around us. When I would go into a rapid, I would have a person behind me that's guiding me. I would have a person in front who we called the, he'd pick the line because you have to pick the very complex line through the rapids. So the guy behind me would be watching that person so that he wouldn't have to be making extra decisions as he was guiding me. We had a Hail Mary, a person in the back.
that was there to pick up all the pieces in case any of us were swimming. And then we had two people usually down at the bottom of the rapid and the eddy waiting to again, pick up the pieces if somebody were to fall out of their boat and swim. So we were very, very safe as safe managing the risk as safe as possible. But at the same time, you can never be fully in control. And again, like it's a, it's a paradox because if you're hesitant,
Erik (56:16.808)
in these rapids and you're leaning back and you're scared. You're actually going to be more in danger than leaning forward and being aggressive and leaning into the experience. That was just such a hard lesson for me to learn. But Harlan, I called him like the Yoda of the river. He would just alert, try and reconnect dot dot dot make sure.
I would call Harlan like the Yoda of the river. He would just constantly be giving me really great advice about just staying present and not allowing my fears to take me out of the moment and actually make me more at risk.
Tim (56:59.458)
think that's the biggest thing that all people struggle with no matter what, when it comes to performance and execution. It's like you're saying, how do you stay within the present moment and be in that flow state rather than allowing those fears and anxieties to take over? And I I don't even think it's necessarily, you're, you're always going to have fear. There's always going to be that fear factor. And it comes down to
I think allowing yourself to just feel that fear and embrace that and embrace that fear rather than simply trying to counteract it or trying to deal with it.
Erik (57:39.284)
Yeah. But time and time and time, you know, like all the training that I do, I mean, I train as hard as physically possible mentally possible. So when you get to those big, big things, you, you have the muscle memory, you have it built into your nervous system as best you can, but you're a hundred percent right. You cannot ever fully eliminate fear. What I think you can do though, through practice and preparation is to take that fear so that it's not
this giant paralyzing thing. It kind of moves to the peripheries. And my idea around that is that like when you replace that container of fear and you shove it to the sidelines for a while. Sorry about my computer. When you take that fear and you push it to the peripheries. Well, you have to replace that container with something else.
So what do you replace it with? I replace it with kind of awareness and to be honest, gratitude, right? Just like being grateful for being out there and being in this moment and being alive and being with a great team and doing something that feels important in your life. And so, yeah, in the past I call that alchemy, just taking those...
things that can be negative forces in your life and trying to fill them in with things that are more healthy, I guess.
Tim (59:13.226)
You find out about Lonnie Bedwell, another blind guy who kayaked the Grand Canyon. How did this affect your perspective on everything?
Erik (59:25.482)
Well, so I guess I'll just tell this quick story. I was actually rock climbing in the Dolomites with a friend of mine and we were climbing this, we just picked it in the morning because it was in the sun, this big 2000 foot rock face and we start climbing. Long story short, we get about halfway up the face and my friend says, you're not going to believe this. He goes, there's another blind guy on this ledge. And it was this guy, Andy Holzer.
He was an Austrian guy and he was a climber and he had this big film crew around them. They're making this documentary. I look at the blind guy climbing this massive face on the Dolomites and sure enough, another blind guy just randomly pops into his, into his film and, and, and Andy was pissy. Thought I had like been there trying to sabotage him. Like you're just here to sabotage, to undermine my, you know, my adventure.
And I was like, no, was absolutely random. And we talked and eventually we became friends and we climbed to the summit together. And it was just this wild, improbable meeting of two people. So I had that reference point when, as I'm training for the Grand Canyon, doing this thing that I thought no other human, no other blind human could ever do. I think I probably got a little...
you know, a little bit too uppity because I was thinking, you know, there's 5 billion people on earth and I'm the only one who will ever do this. And that's all pride and ego. Right. And then I find out that this blind guy had kayaked. He hadn't kayaked the full Grand Canyon. He'd stopped like 50 miles short. And so, but I mean, he did a lot, a lot of the, all those big rapids and everything. And, and I went, what? This guy's sabotaging my, you know, my project here.
And then I went back to that idea of when I met Andy and how we became friends and, you know, and, you know, you're not in this competition. Like what I'm the benefits, the good thing of what we're all doing here as disabled people going out and trying to figure out what it means to live fully is that you're opening a door for other people. So you want more people through that door. You don't want less people. and I realized how wrong my brain was at that moment. And,
Erik (01:01:49.138)
And so I said, I'm going to, I'm going to reach out to Lonnie and I reached out to him and we met at the white water center and Charlotte, North Carolina. We trained together and we got to know each other and it became this fantastic friendship. and the connections that we had were so much more powerful and more meaningful than, know, this, any kind of stupid competition or rivalry that you would have. and, and we were still friends to this.
to this day, Connie is an amazing kayaker. After the Grand Canyon, I started kind of going back to like easier kayaking and got more back into the mountains. But Lonnie took it on and started doing like he kayaked the Zambezi River and like these wildly hard rapids. So as far as I know, he's still kayaking at a really high level. And he got all excited Lonnie and he climbed Mount Everest. He's the third blind person.
climb Mount Everest. So pretty impressive dude.
Tim (01:02:53.23)
So he followed in your footsteps there for Everest and you followed in his footsteps on the Grand Canyon.
Erik (01:02:59.314)
Yes. Yeah. Isn't that cool? And we, we kayak the entire Grand Canyon together. So we both were the first people to kayak the entire Grand Canyon. And, we had so much fun together cause it was cool. Like he had different ways of kayaking. His guides guided him in a totally different way than my guides. And it was wonderful because you realize like, even though we're blind and we're trying to do something, we have different techniques and different ideas of the way we need support.
And it was wonderful, especially when we try to do, they do these paddle high fives where you all like try to lift your paddle up and slap them together. Two blind people doing that was quite treacherous.
Tim (01:03:44.076)
It's always great to be able to compete with other people and have that friendly demeanor when it comes to pushing each other. But I'm always a believer that it's that internal competition that truly drives yourself. mean, obviously for you climbing Everest and then taking on the Grand Canyon. And you say, if I had stopped after climbing Mount Everest, I could have always remained super blind. The illusion of myself fixed and eternal. But I was starting over.
in the past didn't matter. What if it had been a mistake, a fluke? What if I wasn't the person I thought I was or hoped to be? That realization wouldn't just scratch the vinyl record of my mind, but would shatter it. And from an outsider looking in, I think most people, if not all, would say that you confirmed who you really were. But I think this type of internal questioning is crucial for
continuing to push your limits and not be complacent and not be defined by your past accomplishments.
Erik (01:04:50.62)
It's so true. And I, I've had trouble explaining that before, you know, what you're talking about. It's, it's a hard thing to talk about because most people are like, well, you're feared, you're afraid of flipping over and drowning. Yes, of course you are, but there's deeper fears about like, who are you as a human being? I interrupted you though.
Tim (01:04:51.16)
How did...
Tim (01:05:11.598)
No worries at all. Yeah, I mean, no, but I think this is a really important point. So I'd love to talk with you about it more because it I mean, it definitely is a double edged sword. I've felt it in my life where you need to have that appreciation for what you've done and the work that you do. But you know, I've felt it before in my life as well. Like it feels like I always need to
Tim (01:05:41.506)
be confirming who I am by doing something else.
Erik (01:05:45.064)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely agree. Yeah. Confirming who I am. Yeah. It's like a test. Like who am I? And that could be, I think that's totally fine. But yeah, no, I mean, when you're starting over in that way, I remember thinking, you know, if I flip over,
You know, because you're making kayaking is really wild sport where you're making so many decisions all within seconds, right? There's like a million things happening. That's an exaggeration. There's dozens of things happening all at the same time. And so you're like, it's hard to be able to separate like, and making these super fast decisions and reacting to crazy stuff that's happening all around you. and so yes, of course your fear is that you're going to die or drown.
But there's a deeper fear that like, if I flip over and I draw my whole team into this rescue, well, one, you're endangering your team. So there's pressure there, but also there's this feeling like, well, then maybe I'm not the person who I based my, who I based my identity on.
Like maybe I'm actually not that person that I want to be that I project out into the world. And if I let myself down, if I fall short, then you're right. That would shatter that vinyl record of your ego, which is so insanely fragile. I mean, we're just kind of hanging on to it. Like who
Who are we? But again, I think not to get overly philosophical, but we are never the the vision of who we want to be. Right. We're never quite there. We always kind of fall short. You know, when I talked about that vision of like wanting to live an adventuresome life and trying to be a part of great things, accomplishments, great teams, not being dictated by my own fears.
Erik (01:08:11.934)
You know, I can come back to those things over and over and over and say, you know what? I fell short today. I did scratch that vinyl record again, but, if you kind of keep that vision in your mind of like who you want to be as a human being, you can just keep coming back to it time and time again. And in a way you never fail, right? Because you can always come back to that thing.
that person that you want to be, not the thing you want to do because the thing you want to do, you can easily fail. I could have easily failed on Everest and easily failed on the Grand Canyon. But the vision part, you can never fail it because you just can, you keep reinforcing it. You keep moving in that direction.
Tim (01:09:03.04)
It's interesting how you always talk about vision from the sense that you have this very strong vision for your life. And I find it so fascinating how you have this very clear vision for who you want to be, but obviously you don't have your literal vision. How do you balance those two things? That's really interesting.
Erik (01:09:25.288)
Well,
Erik (01:09:29.29)
I maybe, maybe it goes back to like a story that I remember when I was going blind, 13, 14 years old and I could still see a little bit. could watch TV and I was watching a guy named Terry Fox. He was a Canadian. had, he had lost, it was in the early eighties. He had lost a leg to cancer and he was in the hospital and he decided he was going to run across Canada. This is like,
back nowadays, people are doing crazy stuff all the time. Like the doors blown open. But back then I was like a really crazy, bold, courageous decision of this guy with this clunky old prosthetic leg. you know, and he was above the knee amputee. So he had like a clunky like knee joint. So his gait was like really kind of like a Frankenstein ish, I guess. I mean, somebody would probably punch me. That's probably the wrong description, but the way I remember it,
You know, it's just this awkward gate and he just ran thousands of miles across Canada, raising money for cancer research. And, and I did think like, I get, cheesy, but like if you're like a spiritual person, you'd call it like, like what's inside, what's the soul, what's that human spirit? What's that light that's inside of people? mean, I don't know what it is, but if there's something, there was something deep inside Terry.
that responded to challenge and like kind of instead of shrinking, instead of diminishing by that thing that had happened to him, he got bigger. And I thought, man, if that thing exists inside of us, God, want to grow it. And I remember thinking like, I can't see through the brick wall. I can't predict my future. can't, like even the experts in the world, they can't do that.
you can make millions of dollars if you're able to predict the future. most people can't do it. And so I thought, so, so what do you have to be your compass? and that is that, that thing, that vision. so I don't think you have to see because we're all blind in a way to the future. but that, that light, that vision kind of leads you through the storm and with the faith that you're going to emerge on the other side, not just damaged as little as possible.
Erik (01:11:55.082)
broken as little as possible but you know maybe stronger and brighter and again it's it's kind of it's kind of faith.
Tim (01:12:05.102)
How did finishing kayaking the Grand Canyon compare to climbing Everest?
Erik (01:12:12.136)
It felt very similar. just big, massive accomplishment. felt really good. I had a beautiful team, same as on Everest. I learned a lot about how you get big things done, how you do big things in the world. And, and part of that is the no barriers, sort of content or curriculum that we teach people with challenges as they're facing their own barriers. You know, how do you, how do you build that vision?
those value system that kind of guides you forward and how do you build an amazing team around yourself when you feel isolated and how do you take crappy things and turn them into great things and use that energy in a positive way? How do you celebrate along the way? How do you, at the end of the process, elevate your life and your team and your family in some way?
And so they're like, really, I learned that there is kind of this embedded map. It's very messy, but there is kind of a map and it's, and it's so counterintuitive in terms of navigating, you know, your life and what you want to achieve and who you want to be and so forth. So those adventures, confirmed a lot and helped me learn a lot. And now as I get older, I mean, I'm still climbing hard and loving it. I'm heading to the rock gym.
literally right after this interview. but I have been like in the second half of my life diving into like,
not just trying to achieve big things, but trying to become a better human being, like to get softer around the edges and have more love and connection and empathy in the world. And I realized that maybe you don't have to go to the ends of the earth. I've already been to the ends of the earth, but maybe you can have those experiences, you know, playing your guitar on the couch or just having a beautiful conversation with your kids. And so for me, like,
Erik (01:14:10.558)
That's the part of life that I missed out on in my first half of life is a, cause I was setting my sights on such massive things that like I missed out on these beautiful little moments of purpose and meaning. and second half of my life, want to have more as we say, balance and, and, not just be like looking for the next thing.
Tim (01:14:34.998)
it feel like you needed to do what you have done with your life and these massive accomplishments though to sort of have that greater appreciation and excitement for the little things in life now?
Erik (01:14:49.234)
a hundred percent, a thousand percent. Yeah. I needed to do that. and again, I, as I said, I'm still going maybe back to the Himalayas. My friend wants to go to Pakistan, you know, knees and elbows are wearing out a little bit, but I still got plenty of life left in me. But yeah, those things are, they're not everything, you know, they're, they're, they're part of the equation, part of the fun balance of life. and
But yes, I had to go through them and sadly I had to screw up a lot of things in my personal life along the way, know, you know, just sometimes missing out with your kids, you know, in those moments because I'm like training or vacations and my ex wife and I would go on a beautiful vacation and I'd be in the gym training and, and, you know, missing out on that beautiful walk on the beach, you know, and so
So yeah, there were trade -offs and that's a whole nother podcast that maybe is this idea of life being this double -edged sword, right? And it's like the things that drive you that are important and good in your life also can be the things that diminish other parts of your life.
Tim (01:16:09.848)
Do you have any regrets over those sacrifices or have you come to acceptance with it?
Erik (01:16:15.274)
I haven't quite come to acceptance. I'm trying. I'm working hard on it. But yeah, I still look back and I don't understand how you can have that balance as you're trying to climb Everest and kayak the Grand Canyon and climb three. And climb 3000 foot ice faces and you know, like as a blind person, if I'm not the fittest guy there, I could endanger my team.
So there's always like this massive pressure to like be the best. And yeah, so it was hard managing all the other parts of my life and still being in that mindset. So I just, I haven't figured out how to do it all. I don't think any of us have yet, but yeah, I'm letting it go. I think.
And doing what we can, the only thing we can do, which is like think about now and trying to be more in the present now. I think my relationship with my kids is better than ever now because for me I've focused on my kids like I focused on Mount Everest and it's paying off and we have these really beautiful, we have such a beautiful relationship now.
Tim (01:17:42.22)
Yeah, I think it goes back to what I asked you about how do you stay in control, but also allowing yourself to submit to the natural flow of the water. And again, not to get too metaphorical here, philosophical, but it's sort of like, this is where you are in the present moment now. And this is where the flow of water in your life has taken you. how do you
Erik (01:17:58.858)
Haha.
Tim (01:18:10.574)
sort of take this moment in your life and make the best of it.
Erik (01:18:16.894)
Yeah, I wish I had an answer for that one. But yeah, we make choices in life and
And it's hard to kind of excel at everything. I guess the best we can do is just say, look, I I have to focus on the things that are important. how many of those things, because time and energy is finite. what's important? Just family, maybe my adventures, family, my No Barriers organization. But anyway, when you add too many spokes to the wheel,
or just too many components to it all, it all falls apart. for me, it's just kind of staying in a little bit like, don't waste your time on the things you really don't care about, if you can.
Tim (01:19:14.38)
Yeah, and I think we all go through different seasons of our life where, like you've said, we evolve as people and different things will hold different meaning for us. And how...
you know, in your earlier years, your main focus was sort of, guess, you know, tell me if I'm wrong or not, but sort of, you know, proving yourself to yourself, so you could be who you truly are. And now that you've kind of built that person, it allows that person to flourish in other areas of your life.
Erik (01:19:54.43)
I would say that's true, yes. Yeah, that's very, very true.
Tim (01:19:59.488)
Eric, where can people go to connect with you and your work?
Erik (01:20:04.166)
They can learn more about No Barriers through NoBarriersUSA .org. Learn about our programs and so forth. Yeah, we're, we're, we do a lot of really great work. I went out on a veterans expedition just recently because being the founder, sometimes you get wrapped up in all the fundraising and I don't know, being like the ambassador and you've, and, and, but it's important to get out in the field and see what we're actually doing.
And so our, like our veterans program, for instance, we have three phases. Our first phase is, all this virtual stuff that we do, where we learn some content, we connect and learn, learn about each other. And then we go out on this expedition and then phase three is focused on, you know, what are you going to do with this experience? Cause a lot of times when you have these experience based programs, it's after the connections and all the beautiful things that you learned in the field.
people kind of drop off a cliff. So we've developed a phase three where we're like, how do you process this? You know, all these new learnings. but I got to go out on the mountains and it was so powerful because in a matter of like a week backpacking through the Rockies, I saw people be, again, to change their habits and change the way they relate to each other and the way that they interact and the way that they lift each other up and the way they communicate.
And it was because these brilliant facilitators that we have create this safe kind of, call it a container where people can feel free to like become the person that, you know, a new person to, to, to move intentionally into a new identity and adapt into a new human being in a way. and it was just the most powerful thing I watched or I should, I blank, shouldn't say watched, I guess, but I listened to.
just watching this change happen before my ears. And, and so it really confirmed my belief in the work that we're doing.
Tim (01:22:06.882)
That's great to hear. And one thing that I just thought of as well. So I had John Beatty on my show a little while back. He's another mountain climber who climbed Everest. He climbed the seven summits. So, I mean, he's devoted a large part of his life and his energy to these massive accomplishments. And I remember I asked him, I said, you know, after you finished the seven summits was a little weird, you know,
Not knowing that, or, you know, knowing that the job was done to a certain degree and, there wasn't another summit decline. And he said that he almost went into a little bit of a depression and identity crisis because he didn't know like what was next for him. And, you know, he's motivational speaker. does a lot of talking and it's always based around sort of his climbing and, know, those types of conversations. And, you know, he was saying how.
He would love to be giving talks that are not just like, I'm, you know, I'm more than this climbing guy or I'm more than these accomplishments that I have. So, I mean, I think what we've talked about in the last 10 to 15 minutes here, I think it was actually the most interesting and most important part of our conversation. so it definitely would have to have you on again, but like, like you said, I.
Erik (01:23:27.05)
Yeah, yeah, there's definitely an ebb and flow, you know, you get down from a mountain like Everest or whatever, and I lost 35 pounds, you've windburn on top of sunburn, and you're just, just, you're just crushed, you've given everything. So there is a flat sort of period where you're just washed out. That's just part of it. You're a human being, you know, and you got to kind of find the pieces and rebuild yourself afterwards. And yes, that's a good conversation for the next time, I guess.
Tim (01:23:38.883)
Yeah.
Tim (01:23:54.51)
I guess the last thing would be to say is you just have to flow like the water.
Erik (01:24:00.786)
Yeah, yeah, you do. then I was lucky, maybe unlike John, I was lucky to have that advice from PV, you know, don't make this the greatest thing you ever do. Because, yeah, when you finish the seven summits, it's not like this light bulb turns on in your life and you say, I figured it out. It's like, no, you just want to go back and do it again, because it's the process of doing and learning and growing. That's the meaningful part.
And if we keep doing that in our lives, then yeah, it'll keep being fun.
Tim (01:24:33.454)
It's not about the pursuit of happiness, the happiness of pursuit.
Erik (01:24:39.102)
Well said. Yes.
Tim (01:24:41.141)
Eric really appreciate you for coming on the show.
Erik (01:24:43.786)
Thank you so much. Awesome. I love this convo.
