The Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, The Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#041 - Matt Graham - Reclaiming Your Life Through Core Values & Purpose
Matt Graham opens up about reclaiming his life path and overcoming anxiety and self-destructive habits by leaning into transparency, discipline, and self-reflection. He shares the lessons learned from building mental toughness and how reconnecting with the core values instilled in him as a child guided him toward a more purposeful and grounded life.
Timestamps:
00:00 Being A Creator
02:10 Creativity As A Kid
07:13 Moving Around As A Kid
09:46 Not Fitting In
12:34 Dad Losing Job & Forced To Move
14:54 Anxiety & Medication
22:20 Experience With Therapy
26:30 Are We Too Dependent On Therapy?
29:03 Turning To Smoking Weed
34:27 Abandoning Childhood Values & A Father's Impact
41:55 Fixing What Was Broken
45:23 Stopping Smoking & Personal Development Work
48:08 Biggest Misperception Of Personal Development
54:07 Breaking Above Ground
56:00 7 Deadly Sins vs. 7 Heavenly Virtues
1:01:37 You Are Your Community
1:02:59 Content Creator vs. Problem Solver
1:13:36 Having A Son
1:15:24 Journey Of Mattology
1:18:47 Connect With Matt
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What’s up outworkers. Matt Graham opens up about reclaiming his life path and overcoming anxiety and self-destructive habits by leaning into transparency, discipline, and self-reflection. He shares the lessons learned from building mental toughness and how reconnecting with the core values instilled in him as a child guided him toward a more purposeful and grounded life.
Tim Doyle (00:08.172)
You wear a lot of different hats. You're a speaker, a podcaster, a father. You used to be a trainer. You're a problem solver, but I think there's one thing that really encapsulate all of that. And that's you're a creator at your core. Where does that love for creating come from for you?
Matt Graham (00:36.191)
I think it's just the satisfaction of having an idea and having that become a real thing in real life. Like that's just a very satisfying thing to me. It always has been, you know, to just that that's kind of the beauty of life. I think, is that we all can be creators. Like a lot of the things that we look around at and use every single day at one point didn't exist. and it was human beings that
had the wherewithal to be like, maybe we should make this thing. And then all of a sudden it becomes a staple of our everyday lives. And so whether that thing is, you know, a utility that we use every day, or it's a piece of content that you enjoy, I think there's something very, beautiful about the process of creation. And so to me, that's something that's been very, a big part of my life ever since I was very, very young.
just making things, it's, you know, whether it's profitable or or interesting to other people, or it's just, you know, fun for you to do. That whole process is something that has just fascinated me for a very, very long
Tim Doyle (01:54.766)
You've talked about right there, your creativity as a kid. And I think what I love most about your creativity as a kid is the diversity of that creation. Whether it was your skits that you would put on YouTube and creating characters like Neil the nerd or your vlog channel, like vlog day 2010 or, or creating your music album flight.
Matt Graham (01:58.335)
Mm.
Matt Graham (02:16.421)
wow.
Matt Graham (02:22.749)
Wow.
Tim Doyle (02:24.46)
very, very diverse creation. How do you think that mindset of creating for the sake of creating and having such pure intentions behind that creativity? How do you think that's benefited you later in life now where you're still doing a lot of creation, but it's much more professional, it's much more streamlined with all the personal development and self-help stuff you do now?
Matt Graham (02:51.601)
Mm Yeah. I mean, you kind of took me back, took took me back there mentioning flight out of all that. Like that is you. You had to. I don't know how you found that, but yeah, that's impressive, man. Can you can you rephrase the question just real short for me so I know what I'm answering?
Tim Doyle (03:17.952)
Yeah, I know I just took you back there, but...
Matt Graham (03:19.847)
You did you you unlocked memories.
Tim Doyle (03:23.372)
Like I said, just very diverse creativity. It's not like when you were a kid, you were just focused on like, I am going to be a YouTuber. It was like, you just had this love for creativity. And now that you do creative stuff now as a professional and as an adult, but it's much more streamlined and much more like you have a plan. How did that creativity as a kid and sort of...
Matt Graham (03:26.835)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Matt Graham (03:40.445)
Right. Right.
Tim Doyle (03:49.218)
just that having that love for creativity, how's that help you now as an adult where it's much more professional?
Matt Graham (03:56.125)
Yeah, I mean, honestly, like I wouldn't even though the the moniker of creator is kind of attributed to me and other people who make content. I don't view it the same way that I've that I viewed like, you know, making those skits or making music or anything like that. That was just. That was just much more for the love of the game, for the love of the the the craft, like just, you know.
My friend, my friend and I deciding to make rap characters. You know, just because we had so the backstory that I've never talked about this because nobody's ever brought it up. You know, my friend and I, we grew up in a very small town of like 9000 people and there there are these there's these guys in that town. It's like very like not white trash, but like there's definitely some of those guys that like.
we're trying to make it out the hood, even though it was like a 99 % white middle class town, you know, and it was just very silly. So we kind of made these characters to make fun of them. And we just went we took the joke way too far. Like we had a whole studio album, we did a live show, like it was a it was, it was a joke that was taken way too far. But yeah, so that was just that was just fun. You know, that's just
Wouldn't it be funny if, you know, or wouldn't it be cool if, whereas the, the stuff that I do now is much more directed at a problem. So the, the skill that I've developed in creating content has been a byproduct of the process of just having fun. And now I'm utilizing that skill that I, that I developed just by having fun.
towards something. So it's much less creative than it is, you know, just looking at the skill sets that I currently possess and seeing how I can utilize that to solve a problem.
Tim Doyle (06:05.942)
You mentioned the town that you grew up in and that's another big theme, I think, of your childhood is that you moved around a lot.
You were born in Beverly, Massachusetts. Then you moved to Rhode Island. And then where you really grew up was in Vermont.
Then the next move, I think is really interesting is that you move back to Massachusetts. What was your desire for wanting to move back to Massachusetts at 16 to live with your grandparents and go to Newberry port high school?
Matt Graham (06:50.079)
So yeah, I mean, it was kind of twofold, right? Like I...
I never really had a place in the town that I grew up in. I had one or two friends that I was real close with and still am close with. But aside from that, I never really had a group of people that I could identify with. I was not a social outcast necessarily. I got along with those people, but I never felt at home with those people. so it was just kind of like a
desire to find a home, just to find a, and like my, my child, my upbringing was fine. Like my, both my parents are, you know, they're married. they're great parents. Like there's nothing, there's no like escaping a abusive household or anything like that. It was just, you know, kind of being, you know, just not having a place, you know, not really knowing who I am or who I belong, where I belong or anything like that.
And it was just like, well, maybe let's try this. And for some reason, my parents were like, okay, maybe they just wanted to get rid of me. But yeah, I mean, the other side of it was that I happened to be dating a girl at the time who was two years older than me. I was a sophomore in high school. She had just graduated and went to Boston University. So, you know, there was that added incentive for me to, to go down there to be, you know, to maintain that relationship.
that subsequently did not work out.
Tim Doyle (08:35.148)
You quickly rerouted back to Vermont to finish high school and then.
Matt Graham (08:41.245)
Yeah, I mean, there's nothing because if you if you if you're a new kid at a school, right, if in you're like a freshman or your middle school, like that's pretty easy to adjust to. But I was going in my junior year. So. Everything's already established at that point, you know, like everybody knows everybody. The groups are kind of established and then you walk in as an outsider, especially one that, you know, doesn't doesn't have the strongest social skills.
and, and didn't really want to put themselves out there and didn't really know how to put themselves out there because my entire life, I felt like I've needed to, to play a character. And what I mean by that is like, you know, you're either, you're, you're either like, not, this is kind of simplifying it or maybe like, you know, cartoonizing it, but like,
you know, you're either like an athlete or you're like one of the video game guys or an anime kid or like you kind of fall into one of those categories. And for me, I just like I'm very I'm a very curious person. And I've kind of taken an interest in everything like except anime. don't like anime. But you know, like I played video games and I made stupid YouTube videos that you know, everyone would eventually find
And I played basketball and I was interested in, you know, a litany of different things. And so I feel like I feel like I never really had a character to play like everyone else was kind of, you know, playing their character, they were being the athlete jock or they were being the anime weirdo. And I, I didn't I was just a guy who just like, I think that's cool. I don't think that's cool. You know, and and
When I moved to Massachusetts and went to that school, it definitely, it became very apparent that I didn't, that that was the problem, right? Like that I didn't know where to start, because I didn't know, I didn't really want to play any of them. I didn't want to play any of the characters that they were playing. I just wanted to be me.
Matt Graham (11:04.241)
As an adult, that's something that people can recognize and appreciate because a lot of people don't realize that they're playing a character. But when you're in high school and people are emotionally immature, like, you you're not treated kindly because people, you know, people are, teenagers are mean. So.
Tim Doyle (11:31.254)
Another big move that happens in your life and this time it isn't you the one that's moving. How did you process everything when your dad had to move to Indiana for work after he lost his job as a cop?
Matt Graham (11:43.988)
Mm.
Matt Graham (11:48.563)
Yeah, I mean that kind of set my soul on fire in a lot of ways because it wasn't, I felt it was very unjustified what happened and I wanted to make it right and really the only way that I could conceptualize making it right, I I can't storm up to his boss and be like, you you made a mistake, hire my dad back.
But I could be tremendously successful myself and make it right that way. And so that really did set a fire inside me to to right that wrong. And, you know, luckily that wrong has kind of righted itself at this point. You know, he's he's ended up in a pretty good position, all things considered. And so
Yeah, I mean, that kind of sent me on a path of of it was my it was my North Star for quite a while. Obviously, that's changed over time. But you know, that's really that was really the main takeaway from that whole experience was just wanting to wanting to correct that whole trajectory of my of my family's life, because he was the backbone of my family, you know, like
If he, if he, if he lost everything, everyone lost everything. There's an, so, he was the engine and that's both commendable, but also not practical, you know, like you need, if you have, if it's just you and nobody else around you that, you know, can support you, that makes you a very vulnerable system. And so I wanted to try to help with that. So.
Tim Doyle (13:50.904)
So up until this point in your life, you're making all these somewhat small moves around New England. And then in June of 2018, you make a much bigger move and you move down to Florida. And it's also that same week that you go to a clinic and you get prescribed SSRIs. What did that process look like?
Matt Graham (14:20.319)
So we actually made two moves, right? So I went down, I went down to Florida with my stuff in my car because the way it was working was my wife's parents were moving down at the same time with us and we had more vehicles than people. So we had to, I had to make two trips, essentially get my car down there, get my stuff down there.
And really was that first trip down there. And then I would eventually come back and we'd all go go down at the same time. But it was that first trip down there that was kind of like the where things went chaotic. And it's hard to attribute, you know, what exactly was the trigger of that. But it was it was like the first it was definitely the first time that I had like a real physical panic attack. And it was like, you know,
hyperventilating my arm, my fingers and hands would go numb and like my arms would tangle and you know, it feels like you're dying. Not that I would know what dying feels like, hopefully, but you know, it was a
I had I'd kind of been like, I don't know, like people call it like a worry wart, like somebody who's just prone to worrying about things. And I still kind of am but like I've always been that way, even since I was a kid. And so my
It wasn't until about 2016 that I like called it anxiety. And then I kind of had this theory that like once you call it, once you give it a name and you start like, you tell yourself that you have anxiety is when it's like really, you really do start to have anxiety. Because you kind of like, you kind of concede to it in a way. And you surrender to it in a way. If you don't know how to manage it, if you just say if you if you say I have an anxiety disorder that then then like
Matt Graham (16:21.575)
it gives you it gives you the room to kind of
It's not a crutch. It's not like an excuse, but it gives you the wiggle room to be like, well, the reason that I have these feelings is because I have anxiety, and it's because I have anxiety, and that's just the way it is. It's not because there are certain elements in my environment that I'm not happy with, that I have the potential to change, and I have
it's within my control to affect those circumstances. That's not the conversation you have with yourself when you give yourself that label. It's more just, I have anxiety and that's it. You know, like, I don't know, it's just the way my brain works. And that's what I was told, right? Like, and it's kind of interesting how to go back to walking into a clinic in Tampa, Florida, during that first trip. This woman, I remember it like it was yesterday. I walk in,
I'm having this panic attack. can't, I can't describe why it was just like, there was no like, this thing happened. And then had a panic attack. It was just like, these, these were just randomly coming on, which had never happened before. And I think it was just a combination of like, all these different changes in my life. Like I had a, I was very stable. I was at least for being 19 or 20 or whatever I was at the time.
I had a good job. I was like building a career and everything was good. And then I just decided to like flip that upside down and without really knowing what I was doing, I didn't have a job lined up in Florida. I didn't have any plan. just we just kind of decided let's go. And when you're not used to moving through the world, really, on your own or like leading your family, you
Matt Graham (18:22.223)
It's very overwhelming. And that was kind of the situation, right? Like I was just there was just a lot of question unanswered questions and a lot of things that, you know, I wasn't sure about. And that just manifested physically through these panic attacks. And then I had one and I was like, OK, I'm done. Like I had been I'd been to different therapists before and they say like, you need you should take blah, blah, blah medication. And I'd always turned it down. I'd always been like, no.
I don't want to do that. I don't want to do the medication route. I because I just didn't. I've never liked pharmaceutical drugs and never really taken them. I don't not. It's not been my thing. But at that point I was just like having multiple panic attacks a day for seemingly no reason. Looking back I know why but at the time I had no idea. And so I was just like OK I'm done. I tap out you know. Got it. I got at least get out of.
this vicious cycle of having these panic attacks. So I go to this walk-in clinic and this woman, some doctor, right, met me for the total time that I conversed with this woman was about five minutes. This is the first time I'm meeting her. This is the first time she's meeting me. We talked for five minutes and she decided that I have a chemical imbalance in my brain and that I need to take
Sertraline, which is a SSRI and this other this other drug that was like a kind of like an emergency. Like if you're having a panic attack, take this. It'll calm you down like kind of Xanax, but like not not the same thing. So which I find fascinating, right? Like me strange guy who nobody knows from Boston walks into a walk-in clinic and says, Hey, I feel anxious.
I'm having panic attacks, no physical evidence of the panic attack. The panic attack is not in the room with us. But we decide that you have a chemical imbalance in your brain. Therefore, comma, you need to take this. And I did take that for about a year before eventually just not liking the way that it was affecting me. was just giving me it was just giving me this numbness, not physical, not like a physical sensation, but like more and just like an indifference to everything around me.
Matt Graham (20:45.727)
I couldn't, I wasn't joyful at any moments. I wasn't miserable at any moment. I was just kind of like in the middle all the time. It just made me indifferent to life, which I don't think is actually living. So I decided to taper off and try to manage it in a different way, especially because at that point I had had, you know, I got a job and my life was beginning to stabilize. And so I thought that was an appropriate time to, to, to
taper off.
Tim Doyle (21:17.356)
You tried working with therapists as well, but wasn't successful at all. Why don't you think there was any improvement when working with therapists?
Matt Graham (21:26.911)
I think there was, so I went to, think four or five different therapists, three in Boston, two here. And, you know, they, the last one that I went to was right before the pandemic. It was like the end of 2019, early 2020 that I was going to this guy. That I think was at least a little bit successful because we were having
deeper conversations than I was having with the other four or three or I forget exactly how many, but you know, we were having these conversations and every other therapist that I went to, it was basically like, tell me how you feel. And then it was, here's a pamphlet of breathing exercises that you can do. And here's a refill of your medication. And I'm like, you're not helping me. You're not at, you're not helping me figure out why any of this is happening because this is very clearly not
normal. look around and nobody else that I know personally is having panic attacks on a regular basis. They're just not experiencing the same thing I'm experiencing. They don't feel the same thing that I feel they they they don't understand the way that I feel. So just judging based on that the average person that I'm interacting with does not feel this way and I do that means it's not normal. So maybe we should try to figure that out.
And it was, it wasn't until the last time that I had gone, had switched therapists where I called this guy. and I sat on the phone. I'm like, like before I even walked in there, I'm like, before I walk in, I want to make sure that I'm not wasting my time. So is this going to be, tell me how you feel. Give me a pamphlet of breathing exercises, or is this going to be like, Hey, let's, let's figure out.
what the problem is. And he said, it's going to be let's figure out what the problem is. And so I went to this guy and it did it did certainly help. Like there were some things that we identified like just instability in terms of like my career that I was insecure about, you know, because when I just gotten out of high school, I got a job as a trainer teaching boxing.
Matt Graham (23:51.267)
And then I went into marketing right after that. So I was like, steadily increasing my career over the course of a few years, just out of high school, making pretty decent money. And then I had a, like, I kind of had an ego about it. Not brazenly, not like outwardly, outwardly projecting that to people like, I'm the man. But like internally, I was like, I felt good about myself for having achieved those things. And then I moved to Florida and then
whoever that whoever I thought I was, I realized people don't care. And, you know, that was a that made me insecure in a lot of ways. And, you know, that's one of the things that like we talked about during those sessions. So like that was productive. So it wasn't, you know, I'm not against therapy per se, you know, as a whole, but certainly, it's very hit or miss like you will, you'll find somebody
I think for every 10 therapists you go to, there might be one or two that actually care about digging into the problem and aren't just sitting there waiting for you to stop talking so that they can bill you and go on to the next person. yeah, I mean, that last guy was pretty good. But I think the biggest discoveries that I've made about myself have not been in the walls of a therapist's office. They've been more so through
you know, self reflection and and personal suffering, I would say voluntary suffering.
Tim Doyle (25:28.054)
I completely agree with you from the standpoint about how it's great that conversations on mental health and therapy have become much more open and transparent. But I feel like we are also going down a path where it also seems like we're becoming too dependent on it, or we think that all the people in the space can be helpful when
I think the first step is really, can I work through this on my own? Can I figure this out on my own? Because like you said, that self reflection and those times of solitude, I think where you have personal insights, I think that's where your true power and confidence is built rather than potentially talking about that with someone else. And there are definitely people who will need therapy and to
Matt Graham (26:03.775)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Doyle (26:25.782)
sift through things, but I think the first step is can I do this by my own? What are your thoughts on that?
Matt Graham (26:31.635)
Yeah. And I mean, there's definitely value to therapy, not because it's not because the person is licensed or because, you know, they provide some sort of service that someone else can't. It's because because therapists are trained to help good therapists are trained to help you see your blind spots and help you see the things about yourself that you don't currently see. And they're trained to bring that up.
Bring that to your attention in a way that's consumable to you and to sort of lead you down the path to discovering that about yourself. And so that's what I think the function of good therapy is, but you don't need to go to a therapist to get that. You can have somebody in your life, whether it's a friend or a mentor or something like that, who knows you and be like, what am I doing wrong? Or what do you see that I don't see?
And you can get just as good a benefit from doing it that way. You know, now if you're off the deep end schizophrenic and you know, have a legitimate mental health disorder, then certainly go to somebody who is trained. But if you are just feeling a little off and you feel anxious or you're feeling down, like maybe it's not a problem with your brain and maybe it's
something that you're just not seeing that needs to be brought to your attention.
Tim Doyle (28:01.038)
completely agree. So up until this point in your life, the medication really doesn't help you go emotionally numb. Like you said, for the most part, therapy didn't help her. There were more bad therapists than good. And you turned a weed for the purpose of trying to help with your anxiety. How did that impact the relationship with yourself?
Matt Graham (28:15.871)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Graham (28:29.951)
you know, it, it helped in some ways and it hurt myself in more ways. So it definitely helped my anxiety, I would say, depending on how much I smoked because, you know, if you've ever smoked weed, there's a, there's a certain threshold, where I call you go into the shadow realm where if you, if you do too much, you
end up paranoid and you become so aware of your bodily sensations that you can, I swear to God, you can feel your blood flowing through your veins. It is the weirdest sensation in the world and it freaks me out. So if I don't do that, then it's usually a pretty good, a pretty positive experience in terms of quelling my anxiety. But there's a lot of
negatives that come with that because with that comfort comes the the inclination and the incentive to continue doing it more often. And so that's kind of what happened where I liked it. You know, I liked it a lot. I still like it a lot. I haven't smoked in three years now over three years, but I know I still like it. It just makes you feel good. And so from that perspective, it did help my
whatever was going on in my head, but it took over my life in a way. know, I went from, you know, when I first started smoking, it was really just to help the anxiety because I didn't want to do the medication. So I was like, okay, well, I don't want to do medication. This therapy thing is not going super well. And
So it was suggested to me like, why don't you try weed for anxiety? That's what I do. Or that's what, you know, my, this friend does. And so I was like, okay, I mean, I'm pretty desperate at this point, so let me give it a try. And it was, it did a good job of that. but the problem is it went from just something that I did when I felt anxious to, you know, let me do it. Af like right when I, when I go to, when I go to bed too, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll smoke when I'm anxious and tap to help me go to bed.
Matt Graham (30:53.663)
Then it went from that to, well, let me just smoke when I get home because like, I'm not really doing anything. you I'm, you know, at that time I was playing Fortnite a lot because it was like 2018. So I was like, let me hop on Fortnite and just make it a little more fun. Why not? And then, then it just kept going from there to where it was like, let me wake up at 5am to take a piss. I'm going to smoke some weed. Wow. Like it, before I take a piss and then I'm going to go back to sleep.
because going to sleep high is better than going to sleep sober. So it was I was just smoking because I was because I was conscious and awake at that at that point, which you know, at that point, you're you've gone way overboard. And I became I became a weed guy. If you know any of these people that are like weed guys, like you know what I'm talking about an event like it becomes it's like CrossFit where like if you do it, it just becomes part of your personality. And so
Yeah, that's kind of and then it on top of that it.
It became like my priority in a way. Like I would, I would make sure that I had money to buy weed instead of paying my car. You know, like it definitely hurt me in that way. And if it absolutely did hurt my, motivation in my, my, my, what's the word I'm looking for? It's the, like my desire, like my, just my desire to achieve.
my ambition. That's the word I was thinking of. It definitely took a toll on my ambition. I didn't care about becoming monumentally successful anymore. I was just like, cool, you know, I'm like, I'm high. I'm playing video games. I'm chilling. I'm good. I don't need anything else. So that had a butterfly effect, obviously, because I'm not working nearly as hard as I should be as a
Matt Graham (32:57.983)
21 2223 year old and
Also the munchies. So I gained a lot of weight smoking weed. yeah, I mean, it definitely it started out as something that was intentional and meant to solve a specific problem. And it did that. But I just took it way too far to the point where it wasn't. was the the cure was more damaging than the the problem.
Tim Doyle (33:28.866)
What landed me where I'm at is not necessarily what was instilled in me as a child, but rather the abandonment of those things. You've said that your dad is very faith-based, values-based, strong work ethic, but you said that people would also tell you that that type of lifestyle and person was weird and toxic, which led you to feeling like you should be moving in the opposite
direction of that or you believe that manhood would be found in an opposite direction. Why do you think those people were telling you that and why do you think you bought into it?
Matt Graham (34:13.215)
I think it's just because the people around me that were telling me that are very like.
very not touchy feely, but just like it rubbed them the wrong way. And if you don't, if you're it's very hard to understand it, to understand the perspective of someone like my father, unless you're either in his shoes, or you like had a deep conversation with him about it. And I think that it's hard for because a lot of the people that were telling me these things are were largely women. And, you know, it's hard for
Like, it's hard for...
It's hard for men and women to understand the unique experiences of each other. And, you know, it's, it's, I think that
I think that's really the root cause of the problem of that dynamic, right?
Matt Graham (35:21.801)
Though like they just don't, they just can't relate to the position that someone like my father's in because they're just not in it, right? Like they're not responsible for a family. know, either the person that's telling me this is not respond, they have children, but they're not the primary, you know, provider and protector of the family, or they,
don't have kids or they don't have a family and they're just a single person that's, you know, making money and doing their thing. It's like, it's easy for you to say that you don't agree with that with the way that my father operates because you're not in his shoes. And like the older that I get and like I just had a kid. like the more the more that I understand his position and the more that I empathize with his position and
It is, it is at least in some part genetic in terms of like, because what we're talking about here basically is the fact that like, my father is very stoic. He's very unemotional. He's very logical about things. He doesn't get his feelings involved in any of the decisions that he makes. You know, he just does what he does. He's very routine, very regimented, not super big into like social events and family events, which I
There are some parts of that that I disagree with. think you have to be engaged with the family and, you know, maintain those relationships. I think that's important. But in large part, you know, people told me that, you know, he just he operated weird because he wasn't a he wasn't a perpetual consumer and he doesn't care about the things that most people care about. He doesn't care about what's on TV. He doesn't care about.
what's going on in pop culture, he doesn't care about, you know, having nice shoes, he doesn't care about anything but getting his exercise in, working hard and, and providing a life for his family and like, and going to church like that's, that's my father. And to most people, like if you look around at society that that goes against the grain a lot, because it's very material society is very materialistic.
Matt Graham (37:46.729)
very shallow, very interested in like gossip and what goes on with other people. And yeah, he's just not interested in any of that. And I'm not either. But I've always felt like I've, I've always felt like the pressure to be interested in those things, you know, like, like you're you're you're weird, or you're you're socially outcasted, because you don't, you know, you don't have a certain
You don't have a certain you don't care about certain things like.
And it is difficult to...
interact with people a lot, especially because I leaned into this now, like having been like, like you guys care about things that don't matter. And like, my dad's kind of a little more right than you guys. And now I've kind of leaned into that a lot more. And it does make it hard to interact with people because they just care about things that I don't care about. I don't care about the football game. I don't care about like, you know, just the stuff like the the what
what everyone talks about. The way that I describe it is like, typical dinner conversation with people is let's take what everyone else is up to or like something that we can consume and put it on the table to discuss. What did you think about that food? What did you think about that movie? What did you think about that show? What do you think about this product? That product? Have you tried this product? It's just like the...
Matt Graham (39:22.527)
the analysis and the conversating over things that have nothing to do with you. Like that have no importance to your life whatsoever. And my dad was the only person that I'd ever met up to that point that really didn't participate in that until, you know, I got out in the world and then I find that all the successful people that I respect and look up to
also don't care about those things. So yeah, I don't know if that answered your question. That was quite a monologue, but
Tim Doyle (40:00.82)
It definitely does. And the one thing I would say is I think my dad would get along very well with your dad. And those are a lot of the same values that my dad instilled in me, whether it's discipline, work ethic, not getting caught up in the social scene or just unnecessary matters that wouldn't be good for your development. And the one thing that always stuck with me,
Matt Graham (40:13.439)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Graham (40:27.283)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Doyle (40:31.31)
that my dad told me when I was a young kid and it wasn't even like a teaching lesson, but he just told it to me matter of factly, but it resonated with me back then. And it always stuck with me as he said, play your own game. And I think that's going to what you're saying is just not getting caught up in the crowd and what everyone else is either doing or thinking about and getting deeper into you're saying
you kind of regained those values and you've leaned into that now. Getting back to the start of that process, you've said from 2019 to 2020, you define that time in your life as fixing what was broken. What was the final straw that made you know that you needed to change the way your life was going?
Matt Graham (41:24.973)
Well,
There was a couple events that kind of hinted towards it, but I think one of the real like look in the mirror moments that I had was, you know, I kind of thought to myself like, because my wife is a little bit older than me and the pressure to get on with life was starting to creep in, like to get engaged and to get married and start to have kids like
And at the time I was like 22 maybe 21 I don't remember but it was starting to get to that point where I was like okay I have to start kind of getting this train moving if this train is going to move because kids because women can't have kids forever. So I thought okay well I need to. It was just in that moment that realizing that I need to start getting the.
getting life going and start getting engaged and getting married and having kids. And it's kind of like beginning to be time for that. And just realizing how far away I was from that. Because I did want those things. I obviously I wanted to be a dad, I wanted to have a home, wanted to do, you know, I wanted to have the white picket fence and live that life. But at that time, I was very overweight. was, I was, you know,
Matt Graham (42:53.535)
$40,000 in credit card debt. was three months behind on my car payment. was my wife was bringing home girlfriend at the time was bringing home the vast majority of the money. She was getting up at 5am to go collect tips on a golf course as you know, delivering drinks. While I was you know, smoking weed and playing video games and maybe teaching a boxing class here and there. You know, it was just it was just a very daunting realization that like
the man that I like really, really having the moment of like, okay, who do you want to be? You know, like who, what kind of life do you want to provide for your wife and your future kids? And you know, what's the, what's, what's the North star? Like what's the, what's the dream? And then I thought to myself, okay, like I couldn't even, I can't, not only can I not produce that,
But if that life was handed to me on a silver platter, I don't have the characteristics, the traits, the skills, the ability to even maintain that life. Like I'm so wrapped up in my own problems that if you handed me kids, I'd be like, I can't deal with them. I can't even deal with me. And so it was that realization that I was like, if I'm ever going to touch that life, then
The buck stops with me. You know, I have to change something.
Tim Doyle (44:25.324)
You stopped smoking weed and you said that solved a lot of your problems. What were the other types of activities or work that you were doing that you felt really set you on a good path?
Matt Graham (44:36.723)
Yeah, I I would say this not smoking weed anymore was kind of a catalyst because it the same way that I talked about it, it sort of cut my ambition off at the knees. I started to regain that, sitting around and playing video games and doing all the things that I used to do. Sober is not as fun. Hi. Like you start to.
You start to look at yourself like, okay, am I really sitting here for five hours a day and playing this game? Like it's not. I'm I'm yes, I built a crazy sick house in Minecraft, but like. You know, you're still you're still living with your with your in-laws like what like, you know, So you start to have that conversation with with yourself and build that awareness and you.
It starts to be less fun and then it starts to be a little shameful and then you start to get a little disgusted with yourself when you do it. so then I was like, okay, I got to find something else to do. you know, and then physical fitness is something that I've always leaned on in terms of building the mental capacity to do the things that I need to do. I think fitness is a very, very analogous to life. And a lot of the lessons that you
learn in life, you also learn through physical physical exertion, whether that be sport or, you know, just lifting weights at the gym. I think there's a lot to be learned there that can be applied to life. And so that's something that I've always fallen back on. And then of course, I talked about it a lot 75 hard. The program by Andy Frisella. That's something that
is I usually treat as like a sort of mental reset. And it's definitely accomplished that every time that I do it, come out of it a more mentally and physically dangerous version of myself to use, for lack of a better term. I'm a sharper sword in the world. I'm a
Matt Graham (46:57.339)
I think of human beings like tools, like we're tools to facilitate good in the world and like that program is something that I think sharpens you in a way that few other things do.
Tim Doyle (47:10.38)
You say that one of the biggest misperceptions of personal development is going from a state of disaster to a state of perfection with a flip of a switch and completely agree with you in my mind. What I think is really the framework that you should be having is asking yourself the question every single day. Did I improve upon what I did yesterday? Did you have that type of mindset right from the start or how did you
Matt Graham (47:18.985)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Graham (47:33.215)
Right.
Tim Doyle (47:39.874)
get that patient outlook on everything.
Matt Graham (47:43.005)
I mean, I still fight it every day. that, that, that inclination to be like, to like wipe the slate clean every single day. And like, let's say if I eat like something bad that I'm not supposed to eat, the mentality of like the, let's just, okay, we already messed up today, even though we went over just 100 calories, but we're going to gain weight anyway. So we might as well, you know, just have, have
three extra slices of pizza just because we already messed up today. And then tomorrow, we're gonna be perfect. We're gonna get our shit together. It's gonna be perfect. Like that, I still have that mentality a lot that I have to fight against. so no, know, initially, I mean, I say initially, but it's still I still fight it that yo yo like that.
I'm going to be perfect and then well, since I can't be perfect, I'm going to destroy myself and then I'm going go back to trying to be perfect and then once once there's one little bump in the road and things aren't as perfect as I want them to be and I don't have this rocky training montage of making my life better, then I'm going to I'm going to continue to destroy myself for another day, another two days until Monday rolls around and you know. It's.
I think once you have that mentality, you're always, you're always gonna, you're always gonna fight against it. But it's really less about that, that micro up and down. And it's more so about the macro consistent up. So, you know, even this is why I hate that I'm like a self improvement guru or like people look up to me in terms of self improvement is because like,
I'm just a normal guy. Like I have seasons of not doing the right thing. Even even now, like if I legitimately if I don't post content for two weeks, there's a pretty good chance that I'm not being super disciplined in all the other areas of my life because I, I take a lot of I make a conscious effort to not talk the talk unless I'm walking the walk. And so if I'm not talking the talk, there's a good chance that I'm
Matt Graham (50:05.649)
having a hard time walking the walk. And that's just, that's just the way it is, you know, it's never a linear journey. You're certainly never going to go from a state of disaster to a state of perfection, but even lowering your expectations and thinking that just because you started to improve means you're always going to improve. I think that's also a misconception. You're not going to have that, that consistent, I'm improving every single day. Like you're going to have
eight months where you improve drastically and then you're going to have a month that's just a bad month. know, leading up to 2024, like I was doing pretty good. Like I was I was consistent. I was working out. I was doing my thing. And then I had a kid. Sometimes life happens, you know, like I didn't really care about personal development when my kid was in the hospital. That stuff happens. So, you know, you can't and it doesn't always have to be your kid in the hospital like
recently I just moved. Like, we didn't have food in the house. So we ordered a pizza. God forbid, you know, like, it's not going to be perfect. And that's the point, right? Like, but the what what gives people that are that that are interested in personal development, the competitive advantage over everyone else is that they are even paying attention to whether or not they're improving. Most people don't pay attention at all. Just you paying attention.
to the fact that you have improved or have not improved is going to make you more inclined to improve. It's just like if you track your calories versus you don't track your calories, you're less inclined to eat more calories if you track them, regardless of what you eat. Just the fact that you know, I had way more calories than I thought I had. I'm going to eat less tomorrow. Just the awareness of it is going to help you. That's not to say that that's all there is to it, but
You know, you absolutely should try to be perfect, but also live with the expectation that it's not always going to be that way. And that just because you had a bad week or a bad month, your life's not over. If you are consistent and real good for six months, and then you have one bad month, where you're starting out after that bad month is substantially better than where you were starting out the previous six months ago.
Matt Graham (52:35.795)
So, you know, I think if you, you should always aim for perfection, but if your expectation is perfection, then you're going to exist in the yo-yo and you're never actually going to make progress. So.
Tim Doyle (52:50.37)
completely agree with you on the idea that if you have the awareness of I'm not in a good spot or I can be doing better that's a massive step forward in the right direction because there are a lot of people who won't have that awareness or they will try to blind themselves to that awareness and To paint a picture for you here because obviously like we said it can't go from being really bad to being really good overnight when did it feel like
you had gotten back to ground level basically, like if you were like, let's say you were in a massive hole, smoking weed, video games, overweight, not motivated or anything. When did it feel like you got back to a point where like, all right, I've worked really hard and now I'm back like at the ground level. And then when did it feel like, all right, now I've kind of broken above ground.
Matt Graham (53:47.497)
I don't even think of it like that. Like I feel like I'm at the ground level now.
Tim Doyle (53:51.863)
I like that outlook.
Matt Graham (53:52.883)
like genuinely like I, I have this like, I don't know, I'm, I'm a very harsh critic of myself and my aspirations just continuously grow. And so no matter where I'm at, I always feel like I'm not even close to where to where I want to be like the gap between who I want to be and who I who I am is like
Sometimes it gets smaller and then other times it just, it gets bigger and it never gradually gets smaller. It gets smaller, smaller, smaller, smaller and then it just gets bigger again because I believe more is possible.
Tim Doyle (54:39.498)
I resonate with that a lot and I think in my life it's sometimes a double edged sword where it's a good thing because you always stay grounded and level headed and you don't get too big of an ego. But I feel like at other points it can sometimes hold me back because it makes me blind to the progress I have seen. What was the impact of seeing that graphic of the seven deadly sins next to the
seven heavenly virtues.
Matt Graham (55:11.775)
Yeah, I mean, it was a it was a mirror held up to my face, you know, in terms of like all the seven the seven deadly sins greed, lust, envy, wrath, sloth, pride and gluttony.
Those were all things that I was participating in at the time that I saw the graphic. And so I was less focused on like the seven heavenly virtues and because like, who really knows what temperance means, you know, but when you see greed, you're like, okay, that's me. Lust, that's me. Sloth, had to Google that one, but that's me.
gluttony like those are I can I read it and I could associate actions that I have taken not that far in the past. And this was like this is like December of 2020 roughly.
I saw like each of those words. think of all the things that I did that were associated with that one word. And I'm like, wow, I am. am. Like.
Matt Graham (56:31.003)
I have the values that I aspire towards, but at that point, if you were to ask me the values that I acted like I aspired towards, it would be all seven of those. Right? Because there's who you think you are, then there's who you actually are. Who I thought I was, was chastity, temperance, diligence, all the seven heavenly virtues. But in reality, I was an amalgamation of
greed, lust, envy, pride, you know, all those. And so that was one of those moments where I was like, wow.
Because, you know, like, as far as like the spiritual side of it goes, like I had just completely unplugged at that point and I was just, I wasn't, I was kind of indifferent to religion. I didn't really care. Like I didn't, I wasn't, I wasn't an atheist per se, but I wasn't like, I wasn't, I wasn't like running around saying God doesn't exist, but I also wasn't interested in finding out if if God did exist.
And I don't know, that was just one of those things that kind of woke me up to the fact that like maybe there's something to this, you know, like if I can feel as miserable as I felt and that those seven words can best describe me more than any other words. Maybe there's a correlation there. Maybe the reason that I feel the way I do is because I'm participating in these things. And so let me just try to not participate in these things.
And it wasn't even like that. That's kind of the interesting part of it, because it's not like it wasn't saying. Watching porn or eating a lot of food or. Or. I'm trying to think of an action that might be associated with one of those words, but you know, it wasn't saying don't like how you see on like Twitter a lot where it says don't watch porn, don't eat more calories than you than you burn, whatever, right? Like you have these.
Matt Graham (58:36.915)
It was just like, don't be gluttonous. Don't be prideful. Don't be envious. Don't be lustful. That's a very different thing. It's a very different thing to like, let's just take lust because it's like the most concrete example, right? Like it's one thing to say, okay, stop watching porn. And that's another thing to say, stop trying to be lustful.
Stop looking through the world through that lens. Instead of saying, stop eating seed oils, like everyone says on Twitter. How about stop being gluttonous, only eat what you need. That's like a change in perspective and a change in the lens you view the world through, rather than just not participating in a certain thing anymore.
Like that changes who you are versus changing the things you do. So, yeah, I find that, I just found it very powerful. And, you know, based on the way that I felt after I stopped.
And it's again, it's hard, but right, like you're a human being at the same time. It's hard to not want to be gluttonous. It's hard not want to want to be prideful. It's hard not to want to be, especially as a man, lustful. You still fight those things every single day. But once you stop participating in the actions that are associated with those feelings, or that those feelings lead you to, that was enough for me to realize that there was probably something to this.
religion thing, whether it's whether the mystical side of it is real or not. There's absolutely something to the value side of it. The the practice of living in that way, which you know, I think is real enough to be worthy of participation.
Tim Doyle (01:00:40.94)
An idea that you resonate with a lot from Jordan Peterson. You are a community of people stretched across time. I like to think of that. In other words, the different versions of yourself over your lifespan create this community. How do you think publicly documenting yourself and creating since a very young kid and putting yourself in front of the camera? How do you think that's further built and
allowed you to visualize the community you've built for yourself internally.
Matt Graham (01:01:16.233)
mean, it's just cool. Like, it's cool to be able to look back on those things. But I'm
Matt Graham (01:01:24.664)
I'm I don't think about it too much. I'm I'm much more concerned about the
community of people in the future that I am about the community of people in the past.
You know, it's cool to look back on, but it's not something that I concern myself with too much. focus 90 % of my energy in terms of myself into who I'm becoming rather than who I am and who I've been.
Tim Doyle (01:02:03.182)
You've grown a pretty sizable following on Instagram and TikTok, hundreds of thousands of followers, but you've stood by this idea and this mindset that you're not a content creator, but you're a problem solver. What's the main problem that you've tasked yourself with solving?
Matt Graham (01:02:29.683)
That's hard. It's not one problem. I just I just think that people are kind like how we talked about with the difference between like my father and some of the other people that I'm close to. Like I just think I just think people are focused on the wrong stuff. I think people are focused on things that don't matter whatsoever. And it creates a like it creates a butterfly effect where
where society isn't even real. And I know that sounds weird, like, the if we're if all we're focused on is like media and entertainment and in food and movies and shows and like tech and all these things like those are not those are not important to the
future of a civilization at all. Like they're not Marvel movies are not the reason is are not how we got here. You know, it and this is kind of the double edged sword of being a content creator and like saying things on the internet is like we don't the number one career that kids should be aspiring towards is not should not be content creator. It's not important what I do. Yes, it helps people but it is not
If I fell off the face of the earth, if every single personal development influencer fell off the face of the earth, nobody would bat an eye. Nobody cares at the end of the day. The only reason you even pay attention to me is because an algorithm decides that I show up on your phone. That's the only way. I stop making content for a month, unless you know me personally, you would forget I exist. It's not that important.
And what's really important is stuff that that keeps us alive. Stuff like plumbing and farming and medicine and like stuff that actually matters. And that's not to say that everyone should drop what they're doing and go become a plumber. But like it's just a commentary on the notion that people people
Matt Graham (01:04:57.157)
lack the persp... because we live in this modern first world bubble. And like everyone that's currently alive has always lived in that modern first world bubble. You know, some more modern than others, obviously, like my little sister doesn't know what life is like without the internet. She doesn't know what life is like without social media. Has no idea. And the the that creates a certain
type of civilization. You know, when when what people care about most is this is the points that they score on the on screens, meaning like how many followers they have, how many likes they have, as if that actually matters. Like, I don't know, like when I first started making content, and this might be a little bit of a tangent, but when I first started making con, and I mean, like, personal development content, I've always been making content just because it's a hobby, just because it's fun.
When I started gaining followers and like started having a real thing, I definitely thought that I like made it, you know, I definitely thought that I was like the man because I had gained I think it was like a quarter of a million followers on TikTok in like a couple months. And like I thought I was the man. And then like you meet other people who are in this space and you
I don't know, you just you just get around and you talk to people and you you talk to people who do actually important things. And I don't know, it just it just shifted my perspective from like, wow, this is awesome. I'm a content creator. I'm an influencer. I have 10000 followers on TikTok to. It doesn't even matter, like it doesn't matter at all, like the followers that I have it.
It's cool because a lot of people follow me and like I can try to help people and I can try to do good things through my platform. And I think that's the point of having the platform. But as far as like my own self satisfaction I get no satisfaction out of it anymore. Honestly if I'm being totally honest with you I I refrain from telling people about what I about the stuff that I do online just because it skews
Matt Graham (01:07:25.503)
people's perspective of you, you know, and like people. It's just not important to me. It's not important to me. I like to make the content still I like to help people still I like to try to provide value to people. But it's not like especially the self improvement space to me, especially specifically grosses me out because it's like preying on people's suffering for profit. You know, like you see a lot of like the
by my course guys, you know, just making up problems that like can be solved with a YouTube video that's already out there for free. And making a $1,000 course on it. It's just gross. And I don't want to I don't like that I'm bunched in with those guys. I just think, you know, it the point of having the platform is to try to
influence people's perspective and, and move their minds in a way that is more conducive to the way that you view the world.
It certainly has. It's certainly effective for building a business and doing all that, but I think when in terms of what I do and the approach that I take, it's much more important to me that people shift their perspective towards. Maybe this social media thing isn't as important as people think it is. Maybe you know all this all these things that are promoted throughout society aren't.
actually the things that should be promoted through throughout society, maybe we should focus more on the people in our lives like they're like the real people that we see every single day. Like people think that their lives are the people that are in their group chat or the lot their their lives are the people that they exchange reels with on so on Instagram. It's like those aren't those aren't your people like that you might like them and you might, you know, have the same sense of humor and all that but like
Matt Graham (01:09:34.633)
There's a real life out here that like actually matters. And you need to participate in that because if we don't participate in that, going back to the broader perspective of like, which was genuinely the original reason that I started making this content is because if we don't participate in the real world and become as excellent in the real world as we possibly can, and we don't develop real world skills,
that leaves us vulnerable to other civilizations that do participate in the real world. Other countries, other populations, it doesn't matter. If we live here, and everyone in some other country, whether it's Russia or China or whoever, is living in the real world building real skills,
you know, gaining strength in that way, having families, growing their population. What happens to us? We collapse. We collapse. The number one export in the US is like media and tech. That's not a strong country. That's not a strong civilization. If what we produce for the world is entertainment, we're the jesters of the world.
We are the court jesters of the world. That was never, and weapons, by the way, weapons is the other huge thing, but, you know, it just, I don't see that going well for us. And so what I do is I go on the medium that everyone is participating in and I say, hey, maybe this isn't a good idea. Maybe we should do something else with our time. So.
That's the problem that I'm trying to solve.
Tim Doyle (01:11:36.696)
Social media has definitely created characters out of all of us from the standpoint of what we consume and who we consume. Yes, those are real people, but we're just seeing them within a digital world. So they're more so like a fictional character rather than a real human. And then also being on the creator side of things, I think people can get into a difficult situation while that they're creating a character of themselves.
rather than who they are as a real human being. And I think that ties in nicely to what we were talking about at the start of our conversation about how when you were in high school, you felt like I'm interested in a lot of different things. I don't fit this like one character mold. And I think social media is prone to having people question who they really are because you're constantly seeing hundreds of different people.
throughout the day in this digital world and you're like, I'm kind of like this person or I'm different like this person and you're just constant in this comparison cycle rather than knowing who you truly are. And like you said earlier, also, your son was born earlier this year. And you said so many things that I believed were important cease to matter. On February 12, 2024 at 3.46pm. Everything finally made sense.
Matt Graham (01:13:05.567)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Doyle (01:13:06.678)
What made sense?
Matt Graham (01:13:09.085)
that so
It's a bit of a cop out because as articulate as I try to be, there are certain things that can't be put into words. I always, parents always told me that they're like, you never understand it till you're there. You never understand it till you have a kid. And it's true. So what made sense cannot properly be articulated. You literally like, they're right.
They're right. I try to articulate the on the unarticulatable and and that's what I think. I genuinely think it's like a biological phenomenon that once you once you have some like going back to the creation conversation, right? Like once you have a human life that you created in your hands. Yeah, that is just something that can't
can't properly be put into words. is a deeply biological, physical, spiritual phenomenon that can only be experienced, not explained.
Tim Doyle (01:14:30.702)
It's a feeling more than a thought.
Matt Graham (01:14:32.403)
Yeah, for sure.
Tim Doyle (01:14:35.404)
It's very hard to understand how your mind works if you don't spend any time in it. When you were younger, you had a t-shirt that said, Mattology on it.
Matt Graham (01:14:48.1)
my god.
Tim Doyle (01:14:51.19)
And then underneath that, it said the study of Matthew throughout your entire life. What do you think you've come to understand most about yourself through your journey of methodology?
Matt Graham (01:15:05.683)
Well, so that was just a shirt that my dad bought me when I was younger. There's no backstory to that, by the way. What's the thing that I've come to learn about myself?
Matt Graham (01:15:25.939)
I really have to think about that.
Matt Graham (01:15:34.111)
I know. think I just...
I have more questions about myself than I do answers about myself. think, you know, the long, the more that time goes on, I, I, I don't feel like I've truly figured myself out in any way, shape or form. Like the more, and I think that's the point, right? Like if you, if you're really trying to advance yourself and you're really trying to be uncomfortable and put yourself in positions to grow.
you're always going to have more questions than answers. And I think that if I stopped trying to push myself and try to make myself uncomfortable and put myself in new situations, like I would have an answer to that question. But I do put myself in those situations where I don't know how I'll react. I don't know how I'll perform. I don't know what I'm doing.
It makes me it continuously makes me question things that I thought I knew about myself. So. So even even the things that I have learned. When I take it when I take that. Characteristic that I think I have and put it in a new scenario. I question that if I even have that it's like let's say you think you're mentally tough. I think I'm mentally tough because I can run.
you know, a marathon, right? And then you get in a cage with an MMA fighter and you're like, I want to quit real bad. Like maybe I'm not like mentally bulletproof like I thought I was, you know? And that can be, you can interchange any character trait and throw it in there, you know, whether it's discipline or courage or...
Matt Graham (01:17:40.881)
anything. You know, if you're doing it right, you're constantly questioning what you're actually made of. So then that is certainly true with me. The only times that I'm sure about myself is when I'm not trying.
Tim Doyle (01:17:59.702)
Matt thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Where can people go to connect with you and support all the work that you do?
Matt Graham (01:18:08.295)
at notmattgram on every platform.
Tim Doyle (01:18:11.938)
Really great having you on the show.
Matt Graham (01:18:13.439)
Thanks for having me.
