The Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, The Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#045 - Dr. Andrew Newberg - How God & Spirituality Shape Your Brain Through Neurotheology
Dr. Andrew Newberg is one of the 30 most influential neuroscientists today and a pioneer in the field of neurotheology. We delve into the profound connection between our brain, spirituality, and overall physical health. Discover how integrative medicine bridges biology, psychology, social dynamics, and spirituality, and learn the science behind practices like meditation, prayer, and their transformative effects on the mind and body. Dr. Newberg also shares insights into how beliefs on God shape our reality, the role of the brain in spiritual experiences, and the surprising ways pain can lead to healing and growth.
Timestamps:
00:00 What Is Neurotheology?
03:16 Integrative Medicine vs. Established Medical System
06:49 Not Understanding How Spirituality Impacts Health
10:30 Leading With Questions, Curiosity, & Exploration
14:24 Why We Don't Need Concrete Answers On God
18:59 Religion vs. Spirituality
27:28 Spiritual Impact On The Parietal Lobe & The Brain As A Whole
31:52 Is A Relationship With God The Relationship With Self?
34:10 Releasing From Your Self Perceptions
39:21 Physical Health Benefits From Spiritual Practices
42:56 Visualization & Power Of Symbols
45:34 My Spiritual Healing Experience
52:50 How Pain Allows For Heightened Spiritual Moments & Enlightenment
58:57 Connect With Dr. Newberg
59:59 Relationship Between The Brain & Podcasting
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What’s up outworkers. Dr. Andrew Newberg is one of the 30 most influential neuroscientists today and a pioneer in the field of neurotheology. We delve into the profound connection between our brain, spirituality, and overall physical health. Discover how integrative medicine bridges biology, psychology, social dynamics, and spirituality, and learn the science behind practices like meditation, prayer, and their transformative effects on the mind and body. Dr. Newberg also shares insights into how beliefs on God shape our reality, the role of the brain in spiritual experiences, and the surprising ways pain can lead to healing and growth.
Tim Doyle (00:07.408)
What is neurotheology?
Andrew Newberg (00:10.35)
that's a good question. Neurotheology, very simply put, is the field of study in which we try to explore the relationship between the brain and our religious and spiritual selves. So that's the real quickie definition. But I usually like to say a couple of things about that so that people get a better understanding of what neurotheology is about. So first of all, to me, I always like to say that neurotheology is a two-way street. And what I mean by that is that
It's not just neuroscience looking at religion. By the same token, it's not just religion looking at science, but it's really the two of them looking at each other to help us understand who we are as human beings, how we interact with the world, and how our spiritual perspectives intersect with our biological aspects of who we are. So that's one important thing. And another important part about neurotheology, I think, is that for
For me, for it to work as a term, I like to define both sides of that very broadly. So the neuro side is neuroscience, it's neuroimaging, which is a lot of the work that I've done. I know we'll be talking about a little later, but it can be psychology, it can be the study of consciousness, it can be even medically oriented, how does our immune system, our hormones all work? So all the ways that we get at kind the biological, the neurobiological part of who we are. And then the theology side,
Theology is a specific discipline which kind of analyzes a spiritual tradition, maybe looking at its sacred texts, trying to analyze it, think about it, what does it mean and so forth. And we certainly can look at all those kinds of discussions and topics, but it also to me needs to be thought of much more broadly. So it could be various practices like meditation and prayer, it can be different kinds of experiences. It can be different belief and how we believe different things.
So all the ways in which we as human beings are religious or spiritual. So I think if you kind of define both sides of neurotheology very broadly and keep in mind that it is, I think it needs to be a two way street. It really becomes a very vibrant, very exciting field of research because there's just so much for us to be able to look at. It's been so much fun to do this kind of work over the last 30 years, but.
Andrew Newberg (02:32.671)
In many ways, we really just scratch the surface and there's so much left for us to try to understand and learn about.
Tim Doyle (02:39.29)
You come from the world of integrative medicine and how we understand people from four dimensions, which are the biological, the psychological, the social, and the spiritual. Do you think within the medical system, we have a much more divided approach and we've isolated the biological from these other dimensions?
Andrew Newberg (03:00.654)
Well, think certainly in the last century, that was unquestionably true. There was a big movement towards the biological part of who we are. And I think for good reason, I we were really developing science and trying to learn about the systems of the body, the disease processes and all the different ways. And then of course, when you bring in, you know, start bringing in things like genetics and all of that towards the, you know, in the 1990s and the early 2000s with the human genome.
That really is, it is a very important part of medicine and trying to understand the biological part of who we are. But I think that, you know, over the last maybe 20 years, there has been a little bit of a return to, okay, well, it's great that we know all this biological stuff and it is very important. But there's other parts of who we are as human beings that in many ways can be as important, if not more important than those biological elements. And that can include things like the psychology of who we are.
If you cure somebody of cancer, but they are horribly depressed and anxious for the rest of their life, what have you done? So I think trying to be able to help people with their psychological status, their social status, the social ways in which they interact with their friends, their family, the way they feel connected to other people in the world, also very, very important.
And actually, like with regard to social interactions, we know that when people have strong social networks, they actually do much, much better when it comes to treating biological problems. So people around them to help them deal with cancer, heart disease and so forth and depression and help them to be able to overcome those different issues. So they are more likely to be successful at dealing with some of these biological problems.
And as we've already mentioned, I the spiritual part is also something that I think people have realized is a critical part of a person, many people's lives. And for many people, it has to do with how they address certain medical issues, end of life issues, and how that should proceed. know, other issues that are out there in terms of things like stem cells and abortion and transplantations and transfusions and so forth.
Andrew Newberg (05:20.706)
different traditions look at things differently. so understanding that spiritual side of things, I think has also become, it's become realized that that's an important part of really helping to heal people as best as possible. So yeah, that's why I really like the integrative medicine model because as I often say, if you need a medication to help you with your cholesterol or your diabetes, I have no problem with giving people medication, but let's work on.
your diet and nutrition, let's make sure that you keep your stress levels lower by meditation or maybe some psychotherapy and let's make sure your spiritual pursuits are what you would like them to be and make sure you have strong social support system. All of those become very important in helping people be as healthy as possible and also deal with the issues that they face.
Tim Doyle (06:11.58)
think when it comes to spirituality and strictly just talking from my own personal experience here, I feel like we think of spirituality as, okay, this is good for my overall wellbeing or sense of self, but we really don't have a strong education or thought process on how spirituality actually does affect our physical or biological health. What are your thoughts on that?
Andrew Newberg (06:36.248)
Well, I think that's part of where neurotheology comes into play. That's, you know, one of the things, which I didn't say about the definition of neurotheology is that the topics of it really range from the very kind of philosophical esoteric side of things to the very practical. And that's what you're talking about now, which is if somebody has a strong spiritual life or religious life, does that have an impact on their overall health and well-being? And if so, how?
And so there, and I think over the last 30 years, there's been really thousands of research studies that have helped to elucidate what that is. and there are many different kind of causes or reasons, many factors I should say, that are part of that process. Some of them are social, you know, if you're part of a religious community, well, you have a strong support social support network. So that can help you deal with cancer, heart disease or whatever. There are.
Many practices, meditation and prayer, this is something that I've done a lot of work, study, that affect the brain, that affect the body, that affect your immune system, your hormones, your stress, and so forth. So that can have a potential impact on the way, on your overall health and wellbeing. A number of religious traditions have other types of practices that they do, and they could be related to diet and nutrition. For example, if you're a Hindu, you might be a vegetarian. And we know that a lot of data these days shows that
being a vegetarian or at least trying to avoid animal-based proteins and try to move more towards plant-based proteins is a much healthier lifestyle. So if it's of augmented by following a spiritual tradition, that will only help the person follow that particular approach to dieting, for example, and that will help to keep them healthier. And then there's some potential evidence that there's just an inherent aspect in terms of
Being spiritual, you feel more connected to the world, you have a greater sense of meaning and purpose, you are probably more optimistic about things, and all of those factors also are associated with overall betterments in terms of your health and wellbeing. So I think we have learned more and more how the spiritual factors have an impact on the psychological, social, and ultimately the biological parts of who we are.
Tim Doyle (09:01.692)
Well, I'm glad to have you here so we can dive deeper into all that and into your work. And the thing that I was struck by, I was reading your about page and it says at the top, Andrew has been asking questions about reality, truth and God since he was very young. So when it comes to your work now, how do you think you've gone about leading with questions and curiosity and exploration rather than simply just striving to find answers?
Andrew Newberg (09:31.822)
Well, I guess I was always hoping to find answers, but I think I typically have found more and more questions as time has gone on, and I guess that's okay. But yeah, I I think asking questions is kind of the fundamental part of being alive. We're always trying to learn about our world from the moment we're born. We wanna learn about what's right, what's wrong, what to eat, what not to eat. I mean, some very basic things that we have to ask questions about.
to the very profound questions about the nature of reality and how we perceive that reality. So to me, all of this is really about trying to find answers, but it is, you know, not to be overly trite, but I mean, it's a journey. And I think sometimes the more we just continue down that path and continue on that journey, we learn so much. We learn a lot about ourselves. We learn about the people around us. We learn about the world around us.
And so, you I always feel that asking a lot of questions is kind of the fundamental part of who I am at least. And I think honestly, it's fundamental for everyone. And I think part of the challenge with that is to kind of be okay with that and be okay with asking questions, knowing that we may not find at least very concrete answers and kind of pursuing the unknown.
so to speak, in a way that helps us learn more about who we are and how we handle those things. So I think it's kind of a, you it's a very complex interplay between how we are psychologically, spiritually, biologically, that helps us to try to address those questions. And, you know, I'm still working on it. me, neurotheology is kind of a natural approach, at least from my perspective, because as I
did ask these questions. I started out with a lot of science. I thought, well, it's got to be our brain that helps us to answer these questions. So let me study the brain. Let me study how our mind works. And I did a lot on my own. I try to learn and read about all of that and study that as I was going through school. But then as I did go through, I realized that there were some questions about consciousness, about reality, some these big philosophical questions that don't have
Andrew Newberg (11:54.272)
very easy scientific answers. so, and again, that doesn't mean that science is bad or wrong. It's just that there are certain limitations that science has in terms of addressing these issues. Religion and philosophy and spirituality are another perspective to be taken that are also terrific in many ways, but have their limitations. And so to me, I always sort of feel that at some level, and I don't know exactly what this ultimately will look like.
there's gotta be some combination where we take the best of what we can look at and ask questions about scientifically with the best that we can look at and ask questions about philosophically and spiritually. And to me, that's kind of come together in this field of neurotheology. And to me, as I continue to go down that path, it is kind of my combined scientific and spiritual journey. And I really don't know where it will take me, but.
I have faith in asking questions and hope to keep doing so.
Tim Doyle (12:55.058)
The big question unknown is the existence of God and even understanding what that term God means from a neurological perspective.
Andrew Newberg (13:01.997)
Right.
you
Sorry, I'm at home.
Tim Doyle (13:10.244)
No worries. From a neurological perspective, why don't people actually need a concrete answer to that to actually benefit from their understanding of God?
Andrew Newberg (13:23.394)
Well, I think on one hand, people like to have as much of a definitive answer. Obviously, it's challenging to do that. It's hard to find a definitive answer. so it's where we kind of start to turn to our beliefs. I wrote a book a bunch of years ago called Why We Believe What We Believe. And a lot of that has to do with how much certainty do we need to have, how much openness do we need to have.
in terms of our understanding of that kind of a question about the nature of God. Like I said, think on one hand, people, well, part of the answer to your question is that we have our brain that's kind of looking out on this universe and it's basically an infinite universe. We have access to a very, very tiny percentage, 0.00 and fill in a thousand zeros, 1%.
And yet we have to try to make some sense out of it. I mean, we need to for our survival. We need to understand who we are, how we relate to the world, what's going on in the world. And so, you when it comes to some of these beliefs that are scientific, that are religious, they are beliefs. And so, you know, we have a certain degree to which we try to be definitive about them. But because we have very, you know,
we are mortal, we are flawed, we make all kinds of mistakes in trying to think about the world around us, it isn't a surprise that we would make a lot of errors and really have a tremendous amount of uncertainty and a tremendous amount of doubt. That's part of where our beliefs come in, that we need to try to believe some perspective on the world that helps us to survive and to get through things. But yeah, it's a...
It is a real challenge, but I think that even the idea of having some kind of perspective that works for a person, even if they don't know about it for sure, is something that can be helpful for them because the more we can feel some degree of understanding and control about our world, then that is going to make us feel better. It's going to give us a directionality, a way of interacting with the world that hopefully works.
Andrew Newberg (15:44.14)
But again, part of the hope is that when people find that those perspectives are not working, that they are willing to be open to them and change. And that's where sometimes things go awry when they continue to hold onto beliefs, even when there is very clear evidence to the contrary or holding onto beliefs that really aren't working for them, even though they kind of understand that they're not working for them, but they nonetheless...
kind of hold on to that. And of course, again, we see this in religion and spirituality, we see this in morality, we see this in politics. It's a part of every aspect of human life. So it's not just religion and spirituality, it's a part of that. But again, I think for the most part, our brain, which has the goal of trying to help us survive in the world, is going to do its best to give us some picture of the world around us, some idea of what we are supposed to do.
both good and bad in terms of what we should avoid, what we should go to, the people that we should be with, people we shouldn't be with. And by doing that, we try to get to as reasonable of an answer of things as possible so that we can survive as best as possible. And of course, again, when we are unable to really come to those kinds of determinations, then it sets off a great deal of anxiety in our brain and our body because
we're uncomfortable and we should be uncomfortable if we don't understand the world adequately. That means that our very survival could be at stake. And so that's part of why we need to have some level of belief and certainly some level of definitiveness in those beliefs. we're just constantly changing and shifting, then it also is not going to help us out. So we try to come up with some idea about the world which works and which can kind of guide us through our lives.
Tim Doyle (17:39.118)
getting deeper into the spirituality versus religion relationship. think neurotheology can maybe be a misunderstood term because you may just think that theology synonymous with religion. So you just think it's the relationship between neuroscience and religion. I know spirituality plays a big role in your work and understanding the nuance between the two. What are the biggest differences there between religion and spirituality?
Andrew Newberg (18:08.75)
So no, thank you for bringing that up because it is an important point. when I give talks or when I do interviews like this, I do find myself frequently using the two words together, religion and spirituality, because I do want to be inclusive of different people's ideas and beliefs. part of what neurotheology is about that I would hope that your audience would come to understand is that it isn't just about doing science, but it's about asking the questions.
doing things in some systematic way. So, you when people ask questions about, well, are you a religious person? Are you a spiritual person? You get a grid, you get a two by two grid where maybe, you know, if you look at like the US population these days, about two thirds of them will say, I'm religious and spiritual. And those are the people who are religious and spiritual. On the other side, you have the people who are neither religious nor spiritual, and those are your atheists for the most part.
then there's a growing number of people who consider themselves to be spiritual but not religious. And that's to your point about your question, that this is a growing percentage of people. And I think the differentiating factor for them is that they are striving for something spiritual. They want to feel connected to the world. They want to feel connected to something greater than the self.
They want to have some greater kind of philosophical understanding about themselves, about the world. They want to have a sense of meaning and purpose. And so these kind of fall into the realm of spirituality. And typically the main distinction is whether you consider yourself part of a group of people who say this is how to be religious or spiritual. And so, you know, this is what it means to be that. And that is one of the main differentiators in terms of.
these two terms is that religions tend to have a group of people who say this is what it means to be X, this is what it means to be Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, whatever, and you have to follow these tenets and then that makes you this particular tradition. Whereas the people who are striving for spirituality I think sometimes feel that their own ideas or beliefs really just don't fit into some of those more doctrinal kind of approaches.
Andrew Newberg (20:25.888)
And so they strive for something different and that's something that gives them more flexibility to explore on their own. And that can be valuable for some people, it can be detrimental for others. In the world of integrative medicine, we frequently use the concept of there isn't a one size fits all. And so there isn't really one religious or spiritual perspective, which is the best or the right way to do it. There's a best way for each person.
that kind of, and by that I mean that works for best, that works best for them in the moment. It might change down the road. They may have other experiences or other ideas. They might come to a conclusion that their own approach to the world is no longer valuable or is valid enough for them. They might come into conflict with a particular religious tradition and the beliefs that are espoused in that. So really it
It depends on a lot of different factors. so, but that to me is really where the differentiation begins to occur. But there is a lot of overlap between spirituality and religion. A lot of people who are spiritual will say, well, yeah, I have my whole sort of doctrine of what it means to be spiritual, but I'm not part of a religion. So there's a lot of different aspects of overlap. And that to me is also a really interesting aspect of neurotheology, which is
How do we define a variety of terms? In one of my early books, entitled Principles of Neurotheology, the whole first chapter is dedicated to definitions. And on one hand, that's kind of a dry topic, but it's actually really fundamental. I what is spirituality? I'd kind of challenge all of your listeners to take out a piece of paper after they hear this and write down spirituality and write down religion and come up with what their definitions are and to...
complicate matters even more if I were to bring a group of 20 neuroscientists into a room and ask them to define these terms and a group of 20 theologians and a group of 20 philosophers and a group of 20 sociologists and a group of 20 anthropologists, you know, you get different terms, different definitions. anyway, so that in and of itself I think is quite fascinating, which is how do people really even define what they mean when they say I feel spiritual or I feel religious.
Andrew Newberg (22:48.756)
And that's part of what think neurotheology can help us really uncover and explore.
Tim Doyle (22:54.884)
I see it in my own life, think is religion. grew up Catholic. I'm a Catholic person. see his religion is that structured concrete, you know, the church and everything there. Whereas I think spirituality is more so that fluid relationship that you would have with a higher power. And that's kind of like a more intimate setting. That's the way that I see it for my own life. So the moment.
Andrew Newberg (23:20.782)
Yeah, that's a great way of thinking about it.
Tim Doyle (23:23.514)
Yeah, I mean, and that that's something that I've always thought about or pondered because just from a feeling perspective, I'm like, you know what, I really don't think I'm a religious person. You know, I've never read the Bible. I don't know much about, you know, Catholicism or, you know, history or theology, but I definitely do believe in a higher power and have that, I guess, like you say, an understanding for seeking something bigger than myself, which is fluid. So I
I, and like you say in a lot of your work and your writing, I think we have shifted more so towards spirituality rather than just a structure of religion and seeing that fluidity within that. And you say.
Andrew Newberg (24:06.094)
Yeah, well, you know, but one of the things, you know, so for example, one of the things, one group of studies that we did was based on a survey where we asked people about their spiritual experiences. And, know, again, you know, to the point of this kind of discussion about spirituality versus religion, you know, it's fascinating to see what happens to people when they have some kind of profound experience. Some people...
they move towards their religion, you so somebody like yourself may have some experience where you experience Jesus or something like that in a vision and you say I have to embrace my Catholic roots. Other people will see the same thing and say, you know, that's completely different than Catholicism. I've got to go in a different direction entirely. And that to me is also quite fascinating when people decide to go in one direction or another because of what are apparently, you know, seemingly similar kinds of experiences. So
You know or you know the other the flip side of that, you know in the medical world sometimes I've been there where people have you know lost a spouse or lost a child or something like that and for some people they say I'm going to turn towards my religion because God will help me through this you look at like the fires out in California now and some people are turning towards God to Pray and to help them through this horrible time and other people are like, well, why did God let it happen in the first place? I'm I reject God by you know
Why would God do that to me? So again, what's the underlying aspects of who they are biologically, spiritually that then lead them to move in one direction or another? And how did the different experiences that we have in life, both good and bad, lead us down those different paths? And that to me is what winds up being a very exciting area of exploration, which is trying to understand where and why and how people decide to take the paths that they do.
Tim Doyle (25:59.676)
I'm glad that you mentioned that because there is a personal spiritual experience that I wanted to bring up to you. But before we get to that, talk to me about the relationship between the period of lobe and spirituality.
Andrew Newberg (26:14.114)
Yeah, so we've looked at a lot of different parts of the brain. And before talking about one particular area, like the parietal lobe, like you mentioned, I always like to emphasize that when we look at all of the research that we've done, that there isn't one part of the brain that is sort of the spiritual part of our brain, that we use many different parts of our brain when people engage their religious or spiritual beliefs.
And for those who have done that, I think they kind of understand that sometimes it's an emotional experience. Sometimes it's something cognitive. Sometimes it's an understanding. Sometimes it's a connection. So there's so many different ways in which that is expressed. But one of the important elements of many of these experiences, as you mentioned, with regards to this parietal lobe, is a sense of oneness or unity or connectedness. And so the parietal lobe, which is located
more towards the back of the brain, the back top part of the brain, is an area of our brain that takes sensory information and helps us to basically take that sensory information to create a kind of spatial representation of the self, of who we are and how we are in space and how we relate to other things in the world. And so this is an area that for a long time we had hypothesized that when you are deeply engaged in a meditation or
prayer practice where you lose your sense of self, that activity in the parietal lobe would actually decrease. That if it turns on to kind of give you your sense of self, then when it shuts down, you lose your sense of self. And that is exactly what we have seen on a lot of our brain scan studies, that when you have this decrease of activity in the parietal lobe, you begin to blur the boundaries between yourself and the rest of the world.
maybe begin to blur the boundaries of things in the world so that you have a sense of a oneness of all things, of a oneness between yourself, and it's becoming one with the universe, becoming one with God. And so the parietal lobe, I think, is actually a very important part of many of these experiences. But there are other elements. And as I mentioned, sometimes these are associated with very intense emotional responses. And so then we talk about the limbic system, the emotional centers of our brain.
Andrew Newberg (28:34.862)
Sometimes it's cognitive, it's understanding the world in a certain way that you hadn't done before. So now you're talking about some of these other areas of our temporal lobe and parietal lobe that are involved in abstract thought and memory and the beliefs that we hold. So it really does depend a lot, but definitely the parietal lobe is a very big player in these experiences.
Tim Doyle (28:56.688)
What I find really fascinating about the parietal lobe is the impact of it when you're not praying or meditating. And you say advanced meditators had a higher level of parietal activity when they were not meditating. This suggests that meditation over time strengthens one's sense of self and relationship to the world, as well as to the spiritual dimensions of life. And a lot of
Andrew Newberg (29:11.214)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Newberg (29:21.548)
Yeah, I think, you know, the one of the things that we have noticed as we've done our studies, so a lot of our early studies were like, what happens when you meditate? But as you're just pointing out, there are long term changes that also occur. And I think some of those changes really kind of set our brain up to be able to have these experiences. And one of the things that I've looked at a lot that
is hard to study real directly, but the brain is always changing. And so it may not be a low parietal lobe per se that is part of the experience, but the change that occurs, it's the drop, not just the, you here or there? And so if you then actually kind of ratchet up the activity in one area, then the drops become much more profound and then maybe it's associated with these more profound experiences.
These practices do change the brain not only in the moment, but there are longer term changes that affect our potential for having spiritual experiences, but actually change the way people think and believe about the world around them. So it really has a very long term, has the potential to have a very long term effect.
Tim Doyle (30:38.212)
One of the questions that I always ponder and ask people is, how do you develop the relationship with yourself or what are you doing to develop the relationship with yourself and tying the parietal lobe into this and using the parietal lobe, I guess, to build a stronger relationship with God. Is it fair to say that spiritual experiences and a strong relationship with God can be synonymous also with
a strong relationship with self.
Andrew Newberg (31:11.34)
Yeah, you know, it's interesting. You can have, I'm always amazed at the diversity of experiences that people have. And so to your point, yes, I mean, sometimes when people have a very strong perspective of God, they wind up developing a strong sense of who they are, a strong sense of meaning and purpose. And so it fosters that very intense feeling of a sense of self.
There are other people where it does go the other way, you, in fact, I remember many years ago talking with my late mentor and colleague, a fellow by the name of Dr. Eugene DeQuilly, who was a psychiatrist. And we said, well, you know, if holding onto your sense of self is kind of fundamental to being a human being, and then you're going to have this experience where you completely lose that sense of self, isn't that bad? Like, why is that good? Because the experiences always seem to be good.
but there is something about sort of an expanded sense of self, that it's not just you as a person's sense of self, but it's you as a sense of self now connected to God, to the universe. So your sense of self now isn't just this individual being who is very finite and mortal and flawed, but it's this very finite, flawed being who is now enhanced.
by being connected to something that is eternal and omniscient and all powerful. So it can kind of cut both ways, but most definitely, for the people who have those experiences, we do see a lot of people talking about a much more profound sense of who they are as a person and how they interact with the world around them.
Tim Doyle (32:55.632)
major reason why people have, I think, such a strong relationship with God is because we're in awe of God, or there's a mysticism about God. And there's always that continued exploration. How can people go about bringing that same type of energy in relation to themselves and release themselves from either concrete identity traits that they always abide by or just thinking that they
truly know who they are as a person.
Andrew Newberg (33:28.162)
Yeah, I mean, that's a tough question because it, you know, so our brain is trying to come up with a whole sort of system about how the world works that allows us to survive. so however we come to, you know, how each of us come to our way of thinking about the world, the beliefs that we hold and whether they're religious or moral or political or whatever, they help us through our world. And for better or for worse,
if they bring us to today, they have helped us to survive to today. So then the question is, well, but are they really good and positive and kind of foster that sense of wellbeing and so forth? Or actually are they kind of detrimental, but they've gotten us here, so they must be okay kind of thing. And just on a purely psychological level, we know that, for example, when people have been brought up,
young children and so forth who have been abused as children. While they hated being abused, when they grow up, sometimes they get into relationships in which they continue to be abused because there's sort of an odd familiarity to it. And so, you know, whether even though it's kind of a negative way of looking at the world, it can really be very problematic and very difficult to break out of these kinds of perspectives.
you there's a kind of cute phrase in the neurobiological world that neurons that fire together wire together. So if you are used to a certain way of being, the neurons, you know, over time, they form those connections to continue to support that way of being. And if later on you realize, I don't like that, it's not adaptive, it's making me depressed, it's making me anxious, I want to change it. It's not, you know, it's great if you could say that and then they just suddenly
rearrange, but they don't. takes time. And I've talked about this in a number of our books and articles where we talk about, you know, if people want to make those kinds of changes, there has to be a bit of a, I mean, sometimes they happen spontaneously and that's wonderful when it does. Sometimes they happen in a kind of dark night of the soul. They hit the proverbial rock bottom and realize there has to be a different way. But for a lot of people where they just kind of continue down their paths,
Andrew Newberg (35:49.612)
but with these kind of negative ways of looking at things, it's real challenge. And there has to be a kind of conscious effort to want to change and then a bit of a thought of how that change will begin to look and whether that is a way of embracing something spiritual or being more optimistic or whatever it is. So, I mean, the good news is that the brain can change and so it is always possible to change.
But sometimes it can be very difficult and very challenging and people, as the metaphor of sort of finding the right combination to the lock, mean, to a certain extent, we're all a little bit like that and there are thousands of different meditation practices, there's hundreds, if not thousands of different religious belief systems. So if Catholicism doesn't work for you, then what about...
Protestantism, what about Judaism? I mean, there are certainly many other possibilities, but on the other hand, it's difficult as a singular person to say, well, I'm just gonna try each one of these for a year or something like that. We can't do that. So we have to kind of come up with ideas and approaches that we think are the most likely to work for us. Again, that's part of where I would love to see neurotheology help us, which is can we look at certain characteristics, certain traits of people?
and find pathways that seem to be more likely to be helpful for them and give people a little bit more direction and say, okay, you well, you're a 22 year old college student who is really struggling with anxiety. Maybe mindfulness is the right approach for you to take. You're a 37 year old, divorcee.
who was raised Catholic, maybe you should return to Catholicism and try to find a way to embrace that. We don't have a way of doing that kind of a thing, and which is different than the medical world. If you come to me and you have an ear infection, I know what kind of antibiotic to give you, and I give you a different one than if you have an eye infection or something like that.
Andrew Newberg (37:58.062)
But we don't have that information and that is information I would love to find some way of helping people to figure out because it would be wonderful to do that.
Tim Doyle (38:07.164)
getting into that direction from a macro perspective, what are the biggest health benefits when it comes to spiritual and religious practices and what are the exact practices that create those benefits that you've looked at?
Andrew Newberg (38:23.532)
Well, I think that the most obvious changes that are fairly well seen across many different kinds of practices is an overall reduction in stress, an overall reduction in anxiety. What basically these practices are doing is that they're, as you kind of focus on something, as you focus on a prayer, on a meditation, on your breath,
what they do is they really literally relax the body. So we have what's called the autonomic nervous system that regulates our arousal response, which is important. know, if something, if you're caught in one of these fires out there in California, you want to get going. But on the other hand, you want to be able to relax and calm down when it's time to do that. And so these practices tend to activate what's called the parasympathetic nervous system, which lowers our heart rate, lowers our blood pressure.
lowers our stress hormones. And so if you think about risk factors for things like heart disease and cancer and so forth and infection, you want your blood pressure lower, you want your heart rate lower, you want your immune system to be working better, you want your stress hormone levels to be low so that your immune system, your hormone system, your overall inflammation in the body is lower. And that will...
give you the biological benefits of doing these kinds of practices. So that's probably the most commonly observed kinds of changes. Now as to which practice, that gets back to the combination to the lock. I mean, each person has to kind of find the one that works best for them. Obviously there are some that have a fairly broad appeal. So it's not a bad idea to look into your local yoga classes or a mindfulness class or something like that since those...
or a church or a synagogue or a mosque where prayer practices are going on. If you feel that those resonate with you, that's probably the most important. And that is part of what our data has shown, that every practice seems to have benefit. What seems to be the most important factor is not so much what the practice is, but how well you can engage it. if you do a particular meditation practice that you love and is really good and you can do it for...
Andrew Newberg (40:42.094)
half hour a day and it really makes you feel great, then that's the best one. And I mean, interestingly, I mean, it really does need to be, we talk about this in the medical world, for example, and talk about your Catholic background. So I published a study many years ago where we were looking at the practice of the rosary and we found that the rosary reduced anxiety, not a surprise. But I wouldn't then go to a Muslim patient and say, hey, you know,
I have a research study, I have data that show that the rosary will reduce your anxiety. They're looking at me like I'm crazy. But maybe there's a Muslim prayer practice which is similar or, again, and you can extrapolate this to any particular tradition. So you want to help people find practices that work for them, that help them to feel good, that help them to feel more calm, more connected as we were talking about earlier. And those would be the kinds of practices, especially when they feel they can fully embrace them.
that will have the greatest effect.
Tim Doyle (41:42.194)
I'm also fascinated to hear your opinion on. So we obviously have these practices that we're experiencing, but when it comes to visualization and symbols of a higher power, let's say the cross, example, and me seeing the cross and having, I guess, a sense of comfort or strength, what exactly is going on in a scenario like that?
Andrew Newberg (42:09.816)
Yeah, so, you know, visual symbols, you know, again, the brain is remarkable because we use it in all of the ways that is available to us. And so when you look at rituals and religion, they take part, you know, the better rituals are the ones that activate all of the different senses that we have. And so the imagery, whether it's the cross in Christianity or the star of David in Judaism or the crescent in Islam,
you know, those images evoke changes in our brain. In fact, you know, interestingly, a lot of the religious symbols, and we did a study on this, affect the brain at a very fundamental level, at kind of a primary level in terms of how we perceive the world around us. So they have a fundamental effect on us. They stimulate our brain. In this case, instead of relaxing us in general, there's this kind of
you know, it's like, wow, this is something that's important. I have a feeling of power, of awe, you know, whatever the feeling may be. And then that establishes a sense of connectedness with this idea, this concept. And again, if you, know, to augment that, you know, to bring in smells of being in a house of worship, the tastes of drinking wine, you know, the feeling of...
people near you or the chairs near you or whatever. So the more we can activate all of these different sensory processes, that activates the brain, that tells the brain these are things that are important for us to pay attention to. And the more you focus on that, then that becomes kind of a meditative or contemplative process that can then lead to these kinds of feelings. And so when you first see the cross, it can be very stimulatory.
But if you actually meditate on it, then it can become a deeply blissful and relaxing kind of experience. And then the more you do that, you lower the activity in your parietal lobe, you feel that sense of connectedness with God, with Jesus, know, again, whatever the particular practice may be. But those are the kinds of changes that can happen. And that's why, again, the more you can use all the different parts of your brain, usually the more powerful those experiences are gonna be.
Tim Doyle (44:25.052)
that. So tying things back into personal experiences now with my life. So a few years back, I had a really bad back injury and a lot of conventional treatments didn't help me and it was really an integrative healing process where learning about the mind body connection and how my thoughts and emotions were playing into physical pain manifesting in my body. And throughout all that,
Work, like I said, I'm Catholic. I really wasn't going to church, simply from the perspective of, I was just in a lot of physical pain and wasn't able to be in that environment. But I knew I wanted to get back to church when I started getting better. When I did start getting better, was back in church once and the work that had helped me from, you know, not being in pain anymore, like really just wasn't working in the moment. And I was feeling a lot of pain.
And it was at a moment in mass where we all recite together, we're kneeling and we say, Lord, I'm not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul shall be healed. And as I was saying those words, and especially when I said the word healed, I could feel the pain, you know, just from my head, just go all the way through my body, you know, out through my feet.
Andrew Newberg (45:46.008)
Go away.
Tim Doyle (45:51.088)
And the way I describe it is that it wasn't just, you know, the pain in the moment going away, but just all the pain from this entire experience. And honestly, like probably my entire life that just left my body and just pure stillness because I really wasn't able to, you know, be in the moment through that entire experience because my mind was always just thinking about the pain or was thinking about all the stress.
Andrew Newberg (45:56.578)
everything.
Mm.
Andrew Newberg (46:16.408)
All
Tim Doyle (46:19.538)
So I would love to know your thoughts on that entire experience. It would have been fascinating to see an image of my brain in that moment.
Andrew Newberg (46:23.864)
Well, thank you.
Andrew Newberg (46:29.806)
Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that. mean, it's wonderful. I really enjoy hearing people's experiences and it's been a big part of my work to try to understand them. Like I said, have thousands of descriptions of these experiences, which have been a kind of treasure trove of data to help us understand them. And you bring up a kind of experience, which is a very profound one, which is one that has kind of healing powers.
Well, first of all, again, going back to the neurotheology piece for a moment, as I stated upfront, it's not just science looking at religion, but sometimes it is. And it's not just religion looking at science, but sometimes it is. And so to me, neurotheology needs to be very open to all of the possibilities. So one of the possibilities is the religious one, which is did God truly enter you in some way and affect these kinds of changes?
You know, that's certainly a possibility and it's something that you we it would be Wonderful to be able to sort of explore that and try to understand that in some way At the very least while we may not you know, obviously there's no way for us to Study God so to speak but we can study your effect. We can study. Okay Well what changed in you between you know before and after? And we can look at those kinds of questions are again
it's very challenging because we often don't know when those experience, I mean, I'm sure you were in church many times where you didn't have that experience. then now that day, you actually had that experience. So that's a real challenge too, because we never know exactly when those things are going to happen. But beyond just the purely spiritual or religious answer, the brain itself is remarkably powerful and it has its own abilities to
modulate what we feel. mean, you know, the thing about pain, and I've done some studies separate from religion and spirituality that have looked at pain. I mean, pain is really a remarkable thing. I mean, obviously, it's horrible when you're in it. I'm in a little bit of back pain myself these days. you know, what's kind of odd is that, you know, I feel it back here, but I'm really feeling it up here. I mean, this is where I feel it. So, you know,
Andrew Newberg (48:52.074)
Theoretically then the feeling is something that your brain is able to modulate or change. There have been interesting studies about how different neurotransmitters, the chemicals in the brain like the endorphins and so forth can change the way we perceive and feel things. There are nerves, nerve fibers that connect your back or different areas wherever you have pain up into the brain.
there are inhibitory neurons that can block that pain. And so, you you could get into all kinds of hypotheses of that, you know, it basically, there was sort of a rewiring of your brain to no longer feel the pain, which is obviously, you know, wonderful. But again, whether God did the rewiring or whether your brain somehow did it or, you know, whatever happened is obviously quite fascinating to think about and to explore.
But what's also to me a really important piece to all of this is how does that change, in this case, you personally, but how does it change any person in the long run? And so this experience where for years or whatever you had a specific issue and a problem that was really kind of tormenting you to have that suddenly lifted.
You know, is it very, I mean, the emotions that are part of that, the thoughts that are part of that, like you said, the way you think about yourself, all of that is going to undergo just a massive shift in that moment. And that is, you know, again, part of what I find really fascinating of so many of these descriptions of spiritual experiences that they, you know, they literally last seconds, you know, a minute or two, something like that. You know, they're very, very brief.
but they change everything about how the person thinks about themselves, how they think about the world. And so, and it comes with it, this sort of change, a sense of clarity, a sense of intensity, a sense of surrender, of sort of giving yourself over to this process that now is sort of guiding you down a path that is, changes the way you look at yourself and looks at the world and so forth.
Andrew Newberg (51:10.006)
So, you we don't know exactly how these things happen, but they certainly do. And, you know, to me, this gets back to the early questions that you asked. mean, we're trying to understand who we are as human beings and how we relate to the world. And these experiences are kind of fundamental to many people's views of the world. So trying to study them and explore them and learn about them, to me, is part of how we learn how to answer those big questions about...
about the nature of reality and what we perceive.
Tim Doyle (51:42.106)
Everything you said there, I resonate with deeply from that experience that I had. And I think that's a good segue to your Ted talk actually with the watermelon as a symbol for the brain and explaining how it lacks a clear connection to the outside world. And you mentioned that to enlighten the watermelon and expose it to the universe, one could methodically cut into it and reveal parts of its interior. or you could.
break it open entirely with force and a more radical approach. And you had showed the watermelon dropping and it just completely shatters. And I wanted to add an extra... I wanted to add an extra layer to that and tying it back into my own experience. So the watermelon was dropped against its will. And that's what...
Andrew Newberg (52:15.758)
Right.
Andrew Newberg (52:24.11)
I wanted to do that for real, but they wouldn't let me.
Tim Doyle (52:40.476)
started my entire process with my chronic back pain. You I did not ask for this dropping, so to speak. I was dropped and then I was broken, so to speak, in that healing experience in church. And a lot of the people that I talk with on the show, I think they have similar experiences where they were going through unwilling suffering or unwilling pain and then they have these enlightened experiences.
So mean, how do you see physical pain? And I know you talked about it briefly there, but how do you see physical pain playing into this equation between the brain and God?
Andrew Newberg (53:20.098)
Yeah, well, you I mentioned earlier that, I mean, there's this whole network of structures that are part of this process of being religious and spiritual. In fact, as I often say, I mean, if there's a spiritual part of ourselves, it's our whole brain because, and again, when you think about pain, I mean, there's the feeling itself, but there's how it affects what you're able to do, how it affects your thought processes, your memory, your emotions, all these different elements of who you are. So,
to me, it's just different ways of activating, or I don't even know that's the right word, but getting this network of structures to start to do what it does. so for some people, it is emotional pain, the grief from losing a loved one or bottom out of depression or substance abuse or something like that. For others, it is physical pain. fact, I mean, interestingly, the studies have shown that physical pain and emotional pain,
activate the same basic areas of the brain. So that in and of itself is not too much of a surprise. And I think part of what goes on, and again, this is a bit more speculative because I don't know if anybody's actually done the study to look at how physical pain elicits these experiences. When you have pain, your autonomic nervous system kicks in, it hurts. You feel tense, your heart rate goes up, you're uncomfortable, you're unhappy.
It's when some of these changes in the autonomic nervous system, without getting into a lot of detail here, your arousal system can kick into very, very high levels where you get this kind of spillover or turning on of the calming side of the brain. And again, this is all mediated by this whole network of structures. And then you can also have the opposite. You can have this very profound blissfulness, like through a meditation practice, and then you get this incredible feeling of arousal.
So when you have these kind of very, very intense effects in the autonomic nervous system, you can get these powerful experiences of incredible arousal, but incredible blissfulness, kind of at the same time, and then that all connects up into the brain. it hits your limbic systems, the emotions get crazy, I mean, in a good way, hopefully, and your thoughts and everything kind of really changes.
Andrew Newberg (55:44.362)
And so that's probably how this aspect of a painful, it's probably more that kind of dark night of the soul kind of effect, just with a physical effect. But it is another group of experiences that are kind of somewhat related to what you're talking about are near death experiences, where you have this very profound autonomic activity, the person is physically near death, and often with searing pain or whatever's going on,
And then they have this near-death experience, which similarly changes everything about how they think about the world and they think about themselves and God and everything. And often, you know, have profound changes in who they are as people. So these are the kinds of things that really can have a very powerful effect. I often talk about neurotheology as being this kind of big jigsaw puzzle. There's so many ways of getting into these experiences. So you're mentioning pain. I've mentioned the dark night of the soul.
near-death experiences, psychedelic experiences, meditation practices, prayer practices, spontaneous experiences, different neurological or psychological conditions, and the list goes on. So it's a matter of sort of activating this system in a way that enables a person to have these incredible experiences that make us feel like we touch reality in a more fundamental way.
than we do in our everyday reality. And that's part of why I've always been fascinated by them because it's kind oh, wait a minute, if a person has this experience and they feel like it's more fundamentally real, then what do we make of that? And we can't just write that off and we can't just say it was a hallucination. I mean, maybe it was, it needs a lot more investigation before we start writing off these experiences. And in fact, I think just the opposite is ultimately going to occur, that these experiences are
probably the ones that are going to lead us to our truer understanding of the world, but we'll have to see.
Tim Doyle (57:48.346)
Dr. Newberg, I could talk to you for hours about this. Where can people go to connect with you and see more of all your incredible work?
Andrew Newberg (57:51.406)
Ha
Andrew Newberg (57:58.1)
Well, thank you. And yes, I'm talking to you and this it is an endless conversation. but if they're interested, my website is just Andrew Newberg, n-e-w-b-e-r-g dot com. And they can look at the books and articles and all kinds of ongoing things that we're that I've been working on. also on Instagram. If people want to kind of follow the journey, so to speak, which is just Dr. Dr. Andrew Newberg, all one word. And happy to.
help everyone along the journeys that they're on. We're all in this together. to me, that's what I, my big idealistic perspective on neurotheology is that hopefully it brings us together and helps us to understand where we're the same, helps us to understand where we're different and helps us to ultimately figure out kind of how we are as human beings. So hopefully we'll all figure it out together.
Tim Doyle (58:50.33)
Awesome. The one last question I have for you is that you say one of the top ways to exercise your brain is dialogue and not just having basic conversations, but deep stimulating conversations like this. Any insights on the relationship between the brain and podcasting?
Andrew Newberg (59:02.264)
Deep dialing.
Andrew Newberg (59:10.19)
Well, know, yeah, I mean, I think this is, know, as a lot of people have been pointing out in the last year or so, you know, when you get into these very brief pieces of information on social media through like, know, X and Instagram and so forth, it's interesting because it kind of, you know, it sparks a quick response.
But it doesn't get into the deep dialogue that helps us to truly understand something and to explore something. And so I think that is where podcasts where people can spend a half hour, 45 minutes, maybe longer, really getting into the weeds of a discussion and a topic and explore that gives people an opportunity to understand it in ways that they wouldn't when they're just looking at it very, very briefly. mean, it's helpful.
to keep things brief in some ways because even somebody listening to this entire podcast is ultimately going to remember a few really salient points about it, which is kind of where things like Twitter started from, which is, okay, well, let's just give people those quick points. And that's good, but if that's the only thing you have, then you do lose the opportunity to have that deeper dialogue and that deeper conversation and the thought processes that are involved in it.
So yeah, the more you can engage all the different aspects of our brain, the deeper and the more complex and intricate your brain can get. And we can all do it. So that's what's also exciting.
Tim Doyle (01:00:40.818)
That's all I needed to hear to give me confirmation to continue doing this then.
Andrew Newberg (01:00:45.292)
Sounds good, absolutely, keep going.
