The Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, The Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
The Outworker
#048 - Ryan Hawk & Brook Cupps - Why Most People Measure Success The Wrong Way
What defines success—the external scoreboard or the one that truly matters? In this episode, Ryan Hawk and Brook Cupps dive deep into their philosophy from The Score That Matters, sharing lessons on self-awareness, leadership, and redefining excellence. From powerful personal moments to coaching breakthroughs, we explore how to play your own game, focus on the right inputs, and build a life aligned with purpose. Tune in for insights that will challenge how you measure success.
Timestamps:
00:00 Play Your Own Game
04:05 Keeping Score Of Your Inputs
08:13 Shifting From External To Internal Scoreboard
15:09 Outworker Philosophy
16:14 Relationship Between Self Awareness & Excellence
21:18 Positive Impact Of Fear
24:10 North Star vs. Set Destination
25:12 Did You Find Purpose Or Purpose Found You?
30:14 External To Internal Locus Of Control
35:28 Tools To Stay Present
40:39 Controlling Individuality Within A Larger System
44:00 Dual Nature Of Creating Narratives
46:57 Doing Work That Doesn't Feel Aligned With You
53:00 How The Internal Scoreboard Has Evolved
55:30 Connecting With Ryan & Brook
56:22 Sticking To Your Roots
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What’s up outworkers. What defines success—the external scoreboard or the one that truly matters? In this episode, Ryan Hawk and Brook Cupps dive deep into their philosophy from The Score That Matters, sharing lessons on self-awareness, leadership, and redefining excellence. From powerful personal moments to coaching breakthroughs, we explore how to play your own game, focus on the right inputs, and build a life aligned with purpose. Tune in for insights that will challenge how you measure success.
Tim Doyle (00:09.954)
Your book, the score that matters resonates with me on a deep level. And it actually takes me back to a specific moment in my childhood. I was driving back from school with my dad and I was bumming about some type of result or outcome that didn't go my way. And he just matter of factly tells me, play your own game. And he wasn't even trying to make some big teaching moment out of it or some lesson. And it just stuck with me from that moment forward, like play your own game.
and it's become a mantra for me. Do you guys have any moments like that with this score that matters philosophy coming into fruition or what was the process like of building out this philosophy and honestly just way of life?
Brook Cupps (00:56.334)
I mean, I definitely do from a coaching standpoint. I can remember specifically just thinking like I can't keep coaching the way I'm coaching. have to adjust. There's no way can do this for 20, 30, 40 years. And so I remember specifically being in my living room and thinking like this, I can't keep doing this. Something's got to be different. So yeah, definitely had one of those level five moments we call them that you can go right back to that place where you were.
Remember how you're, know, nothing really, nothing in the circumstances change, but your mindset around everything changed. So pretty cool to be able to reflect on this.
Ryan Hawk (01:37.565)
I, Tim, I probably draw from a time in my life when it was kind of zero sum, meaning in order for me to win, someone else has to lose. And in that case, it's a time when I lost is the ones you kind of remember the most. Specifically in sports, you know, I played quarterback and that is, that is kind of a zero sum thing. If, if only one guy gets to play. So if I get to play, I don't really think about anything other than this is great. get to play, but
the moment when I didn't get to play and the other guy was better and the coach looked to be dead in my eyes and said, the other guy gives us a better chance to win than you. it makes you kind of view the world black and white, zero sum for me to win. got to lose. And that's actually not the way the world works at all. so it's weird how I can, and that happened to me in college, you know, where they, the coach said the other guy is better and gives us a better chance. And he was right. And that's hard to take.
But it's a great lesson to learn early in your life that you don't necessarily get what you want. But as you progress, you realize that's not how it has to go. I don't have to lose for you to win and vice versa. I think Brooke has been a, and I've said this a lot, I view myself as kind of the student in this book, him as the teacher, where I've gotten to learn more how to play by that internal, inner scoreboard as opposed to the external one.
understand my purpose, understand my core values, understand the critical behaviors to make those core values true, how to live them out each day. And that's really like the scoreboard I try to live by, but it's still a fight. You know, it's still something I battle, still have a long way to go and have really good days and then also have some not so good days. And I think that's part of part of why this stuff is useful that we've written about is because it's like, you're never going to get there. It's it's almost always going to be aspirational and
but having that foundation, having those values, knowing the behaviors, knowing their purpose, I think gives you a lot better chance to kind of live a more fulfilling impactful life than if you don't have them. And that's ultimately what we're trying to do with this book.
Tim Doyle (03:45.356)
Yeah, when it comes to work, I think it's important to keep score of certain things. I like to think of that as keeping score of your inputs and you guys illustrate in your book. It's not so much just the action of keeping score, but more so what you're keeping score of. So understanding this score that matters. actually want to take an opposite approach to that because I think that can be helpful. What do you see as the score that doesn't?
Brook Cupps (04:13.39)
Pretty much everything society bases it on opinions of other people, status, money. You know, it's all it's really all relative to your purpose. Like I think it all goes back to that. I mean, you know, making money could be a very worthwhile purpose or like measurement if you're making that money in order to provide for your family. But if you're making that money so you can
look better to your friends and have a you know, like everything's based on material possessions, then it becomes becomes kind of dirty. And so I think it's all relative to that. But really, the lot of the things that are put in front of us are the scores that don't matter. The likes on your Instagram posts, like I mean, that stuff that everybody talks about typically isn't what really matters.
Ryan Hawk (05:07.848)
Agreed completely. mean, we're, we're in full alignment on, I think the problem is it's really easy to get caught up in other people's scoreboards or, then everyone's kind of playing to the wrong one and it's not even their true scoreboard. That's why I'm deeply attracted to those who you can tell have, they've developed a comfort in their own skin because they know themselves really well. They've eliminated envy in their lives.
And it's weird cause I'm like, I'm kind of envious of that. You know, like I want, I want some of that, but in a way being around people like that, like a Brooke Cuffs, like a Garron Stokes, those types that have figured some of those things out is helpful. It makes you, it's like, Hey, let me, let me deconstruct that process to get there and then I can do it too. And so, as weird as this whole like play your own game thing is, and I love that. I think it's really cool that your dad said that sometimes it helps.
to surround yourself with others that are really good at playing their own game so you can figure out what your own game is. And again, it's a never ending process, but what happens I think is people just kind of go out into the world and play by accident instead of playing intentionally. And if you do that, that's super easy to get caught up in the wrong things. And...
I think we've probably all had chapters where that was us. And now again, the whole purpose of us writing this book was to hopefully help other people define success on their terms, know themselves better, and then live out their purpose in a more impactful way for others. And I think the people who have read it and then actually implement the stuff, the exercises, all of that, they're on their way. They're doing that. We hear from them. You're, sounds like you're one of them, Tim. And I think that's
That's super gratifying for us.
Tim Doyle (07:04.962)
You guys grew up in very competitive sports and now in business as well. And Ryan, you alluded to this as well as, you know, you were a college football player. And so you get into this mindset of playing by an external scoreboard. And I also had on Caleb Campbell recently, who was a football player. was the captain at army and then got drafted by the Detroit lions. And he said his entire life, he was just wired to think in this
performance based mindset of just focused on the outcome. And obviously Ryan, like you were saying and Brooke, how you were saying at the start of your coaching career, what was that process like of, okay, I need to take a step back here and sort of rewire the way I'm understanding my process and not focused on that external scoreboard and shifting more towards a scoreboard that feels more aligned with me.
Brook Cupps (08:01.934)
I mean, I think I think it really has to start with self reflection and so and becoming self aware of what what do you really want? How do you really want to define success? I think is the ultimate question. Because if you don't if you don't answer that question, you're just going to define it as everyone else does. And so I think deep reflection and really digging into a lot of the things that bother you a lot of things you've struggled with your your wins and your failures really like.
trying to understand why you're why you feel a certain way about one thing and then a certain way about another because I think that drives everything else. Once you understand how you define success, then you can get into some core values and you can get into the behaviors to live them. I mean, it sounds all hunky-dory. Yeah, just live by your own scoreboard. But that's I mean, it's really hard to do. Like there's not very many people that consistently do that. And so
And a lot of it's because there's not very many people that are self aware. So many people that know, really know themselves well enough to say, that's not success for me. Like that's not that's not that's not my thing, which is okay. And then having the courage to then go live that so I just I always come back to that question. How do you define success and in having the discipline to stick to that?
Ryan Hawk (09:24.67)
And BC, can you talk about Coach Bennett and what you learned from him and how that helped you kind of kickstart this thing? I think that was a good story.
Brook Cupps (09:32.578)
Yeah. Well, I mean, so when I first, when I was like, okay, I can't do this anymore. I went to an athletes in action clinic in Zeno, Ohio and Dick Bennett was speaking. Dick Bennett was used to be the coach at Wisconsin. He was actually a division three coach before that was Wisconsin. His son was Tony Bennett, the coach at Virginia won the national championship a few years ago, but Dick Bennett was talking about his five pillars and he just talked about these are the things I want.
the kids that go through my program to leave our program with. Right. And so he had his five pillars and it just made me think. I mean, I remember right where I was sitting. I could have used this as an example earlier, but I remember right where I was sitting. was like, yeah, I wouldn't like, what do I want our guys to leave our my program with? I've never thought I wanted to be better. Of course I want to be better people. But, you know, like clarity is king. Like I had I couldn't say it. I couldn't describe it.
And that is what sent me kind of on that spiral to like, okay, all right, I'm going to figure out what I want to give to the people that I'm serving. And not only as a coach, but as a father, as a friend, like this is the best part of me. This is what I want to give them. And so that kind of that whole talk sent me down a completely different road in terms of my leadership stuff.
Ryan Hawk (10:53.585)
Tim, that's what led to Tough, Passionate, Unified and Thankful, it's really cool. I live in, we live in the same community and so to see how it's just spread throughout the community, especially if they're basketball fans, but I think a lot more people have become basketball fans because of Tough, Passionate, Unified and Thankful and the fact that all these coaches of the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, like all those guys, all those kids,
They all know tough, passionate, unified, thankful. have purpose. They have core values. They know how to live them out. They're taking charges. Like they're doing all these things because of the, the, the investment that Brooke has made in them and defining what the core values of Centerville basketball are. And then spending the time with everybody, not just as varsity kids, but everybody from when they're really little to up. And I think that's one of the coolest stories is I believe
The first group was at second or third graders, Brooke, you know, the first group of second or third graders, once they got to high school, Tom House, Gabe Cups, Rich Rolfe, like some of the other guys, Emmanuel Dang, these guys who knew tough, passionate, unified and thankful as second and third graders won the first ever state championship in center role history. it's like, correct me if I'm wrong, BC, but that's to me is one of the coolest parts of this story is you gotta play the long game.
You got to invest way early, even though you're not going to see any of those returns, maybe for a decade. Like that's hard, man. Like that takes patience. That takes care. That takes love. That takes commitment. All these tough things that take a long time. That's what I think is the coolest part of this story is if you're looking for this, okay, if I do this, then next week I'm going to win or next month or next year.
Doesn't I mean, I think you'll be better, certainly. And I think you'll be able to better position. But if you're looking for this immediate outcome based goal to hit our stuff, probably isn't the thing for you. I don't know what is the thing for that, but I don't think it's ours. I think ours is if you care to kind of win the long, long game, then the score that matters is probably a better way to go about it versus.
Ryan Hawk (13:17.746)
saying, I need to make a million dollars by the end of next month. I mean, that would be great if our stuff does that. I don't know. We probably sell more books, but I don't know if we're, if we're probably the right guys for that.
Tim Doyle (13:30.488)
Yeah, that resonates on a deep level. And I love what you said there about planting the seeds very early in kids, because that was me seventh and eighth grade. My dad telling me, play your own game and not understanding what that really means or how that's going to come into fruition in my life, but just having like this thought, like, okay, play your own game. Like, what does that mean? And just like living more intentionally and like being in certain environments where I can just come back to that, like, okay, play your own game.
And that's the whole premise behind the show as well. like, just to give you guys a quick idea, like the name of the show, the out worker, it's creating this whole philosophy behind almost like redefining what it means to outwork. Because if you look up what outwork means in the dictionary, it's to work harder, faster, stronger than someone else. And I'm like, wait, so like to outwork, I have to compare myself to what I'm doing to someone else. And I'm like, I feel like I'm outworking, but I'm also playing my own game.
And the way that I see that is like, I'm just trying to improve upon what I did yesterday. Like, I don't know where it's going to get me, but if I just focus on improving upon what I did yesterday, it's probably going to lead me in a good direction.
Brook Cupps (14:45.706)
Love it. Love it.
Ryan Hawk (14:48.17)
How old are you, Tim?
Tim Doyle (14:49.732)
I just turned 26.
Ryan Hawk (14:52.481)
I would probably bet on you, man. I'd place a big bet. feel like you have the right, at 26, I was a idiot. So I think you're in a good spot,
Brook Cupps (15:03.5)
As was I.
Tim Doyle (15:04.868)
but I appreciate the kind words and Brooke, something that you mentioned there previously, how big self-awareness is and something that you guys talk about a lot in your book is this relationship between self-awareness and excellence and how self-awareness is a stepping stone to excellence. Can you guys just break that down for me further about that relationship?
Brook Cupps (15:31.882)
I think you got to dig into what excellence means. And I think, you know, it means different things to different people. I think of excellence as the best version of yourself. And, you know, from a spiritual standpoint, for me, it's like who God created you to be. And so if you if you don't take the time to become self aware, you could be really good at something that you despise. Like, and like, is that excellence?
I get is it really like, yeah, you made a bunch of money. Like, yeah, you did all the stuff. But is it really excellence? And, you know, I think helping people understand that that's part of my my purpose statement is, you know, inspiring others to strive for excellence over success. Success is that comparison with other people. Excellence is that best version of yourself. And, you know, it's it's not a smart goal. It's not like but you can feel it.
Like there's a different feeling when you're operating in that zone and in that area. so I just I think I think self-awareness, I hear you read a lot of stuff on leadership and there aren't a lot of people that talk about self-awareness as the first thing. I just don't know how you can have anything. I think everything if you don't start with that, everything else is not on solid ground. It's shaky because you could very easily be.
looking out instead of looking out to look in, you're looking out to match it and to try to be that and that never, you can't sustain that.
Ryan Hawk (17:03.232)
When you, one of the exercises that I like to do with like in the corporate environment is like, you like just get up in front of the group and have one side of a sheet of paper or a board write, you know, favorite boss on the other side, right? Bad boss or least favorite, whatever. And then you just ask them to kind of rattle off the qualities and each of those people, their favorite versus the one who wasn't good. And what pops up on the least favorite every single time is
no awareness, low levels of awareness. Just they don't get it. And sometimes they're, they're a senior senior person. And so they haven't done a good job of working on that or they don't think they need to, or they surround themselves with yes people. And so to me, like, as I've done that, I just so badly don't want to be that, that you're like, well, how do you get in that position?
You surround yourself with people who won't tell you no. You surround yourself with people who won't tell you when like, dude, you're not doing it right. Or have you thought about this or what are you thinking there? I think you got to surround yourself with truth tellers. You got to surround yourself with people who care enough to want to tell you the truth and are competent enough that what they're telling you is useful. And that's, that's not easy to find. especially as you rise in power, others want to be around powerful people. And so.
they'll do what they think they need to do to stay there. And for a lot of people, it's just kind of nod your head and tell you what you want to hear. And so I try to be really overt with the people in my life of letting them know, like, I want you to tell me the truth. Like tell me what was good, what wasn't good, what should I change? What should we keep doing and stop doing? And it's still hard. It's still hard to get that. So that's like the number one actionable thing. I think if you want to
create higher levels of self-awareness in addition to I think regularly journaling and writing and reflecting and asking yourself questions that you have to answer that are tough. Also making sure that kitchen cabinet, your foxhole, the close 3 a.m. friends, those people are there to be truth tellers in your life because the one commonality among people who have low levels of self-awareness is they don't have any of those people. So whatever you gotta do, you gotta be that for others.
Ryan Hawk (19:22.772)
You gotta make sure they know you want it. Not like you, like, cause I've had the boss to say, Hey, yeah, yeah, yeah, give it to me, give it to me. And then the second you provide any type of critical feedback, they get super defensive and they actually don't want it. And it puts you in a bad situation. You know, that's, that's really bad. So, I think that's, that's one of the big ways if we're going to shift to like a tactical tool on how to increase your levels of self-awareness, cause it's really hard is just surround yourself with competent truth tellers.
Tim Doyle (19:51.396)
And I think podcasting for me personally has played a big role in that with talking with people where I've just had these realizations about myself in my life. Like, wow, like I never thought of it that way. Or I just find by reading about other people and understanding their experiences, it builds a stronger relationship with myself as a person. And Ryan, I like how in the book you actually dive into your relationship with self-awareness when it comes to fear and
you say by this point in my process, fear as a motivator will simply be passing thoughts of inferiority that provide occasional jolts of focus. And what stands out to me there is that you say by this point in my process. So I'm curious to know what did your relationship with fear look like before that?
Ryan Hawk (20:42.399)
Yeah, Brooke heavily edited that part, by the way. It made it a lot better. I remember when I was writing about that, because it went from being kind of garbage to like semi-decent. I just think it's been, I've used it as a fuel. The first, the biggest moments are as an undersized, kind of skinny eighth grader going into my freshman year with a couple of legendary coaches who said they believed in me, even though I didn't believe in me.
and then just not, know, you just don't want to your teammates down. It's if football is such a, like it's such a team game, especially as a quarterback that, you know, you could just fumble the snap and give the ball right away to the other team or just do a lot of, a lot of bad things can happen if the quarterback doesn't play well, usually don't win if the quarterback doesn't play well. And I just wanted to, for the, especially like the juniors and the seniors that now they were depending on me to kind of have their, ending of their high school career was just a very scary feeling that I
do think I used as fuel to try to work really hard, to try to be overly prepared, to get extra reps so that I knew once it was game time, I'd be ready to go. So I think the start of that process was just figuring out how I could use me being really scared as a way to just work, to get after it, to be...
to say like, you know what, like Adam Taylor, I'm scared to death of this guy. He's a senior middle linebacker. He's, you know, we didn't wear red jerseys in practice. You know, we ran the option so you couldn't do that. You wouldn't work. And so it was really scary. And my whole thinking was I'm just going do whatever I can to help Adam Taylor have as good of a senior year as he can. Right. That's all I want to do. And, and, and I was scared of him and the others. Tony Abud, my, my left guard, I remember looking at him, the huddle just being like, my God, this guy wants to kill me. And I would just,
scared. And so the process though, as you eventually get to the point, I think we talked about like public speaking and some of the fear of that of how it's about just serving that audience and letting the fear just be a passing thought to now it's all about just service and being there for others. So I think that's the transition point from just purely fear based, okay, I'm going to try to outwork this fear to then, hey, there's probably a lot more to it other than just using that as the primary fuel.
Tim Doyle (23:05.368)
You guys break down this duality between having a North star versus having a set destination. What are the common differences you see between those two things?
Brook Cupps (23:18.702)
I mean, think the biggest thing is that you'd never arrive at a North Star. When you set a destination, you're getting somewhere. I think it's more of a bigger picture, the North Star. It's a guiding light in all aspects of your life that maybe a certain destination or getting somewhere doesn't allow for.
Ryan Hawk (23:43.455)
Yeah, I just like setting direction, you know, like where I think this is one of areas I struggle in, but it's just because I'm more of just like a plotter, like, let me just wake up and work and then work and then work and then work. But like, where are we going? Pausing to understand your purpose and to set like a just a general direction of where we're headed is is probably a useful practice. And I think my purpose and values are are how I try to define that.
Tim Doyle (24:12.344)
Your purpose touches everything in your life. It's not compartmentalized into work you and home you or parent you and friend you alignment and authenticity are the ultimate goals. Do you guys think that you've set out to find your purpose or did your purpose find you and reveal itself over time to you?
Brook Cupps (24:37.646)
That's a good question. think it reveals itself if I had to pick one or the other. think you might look for it, but as you start digging through your past and you start really reflecting, I think it just kind of shows up and it becomes a realization more than a discovery. It's almost like, that's what it is. That's it.
instead of, you know, something that you openly discover. So it's it's a long process. And I also I also don't think it's it's stagnant like it. What's your what's your purpose is when you're 26 and your purpose at 46? It might be completely different, which is OK. Like in having the, you know, the self-awareness to modify and adjust and, you know, adjust for those different seasons of life of what's your priorities and what's important to you.
because it's an important part of the process too.
Ryan Hawk (25:38.785)
I think too, it's a combination of maybe what I have developed some skill at as well as what could be most impactful for other people. So to inspire others to value and pursue excellence. Part of it was out of me maybe being a little upset that I think the world and people in general are okay with mediocrity. The world and people are okay with showing up three minutes late.
They're okay with like just kind of doing a good enough job as opposed to paying attention to detail and like all that stuff's excellence to me. And so I want part of my purpose is to help people inspire them to value and be in pursuit of, that. And so it kind of came out of maybe just me, at times that could be a flaw, but it is
It is genuinely me. And then it's wanting others to be inspired by my behavior to then want to get after that. So I, in a way I would say to answer your question that that was not like, I think Brooke kind of hit it right. That was just, that just kind of has happened over time. I'd be curious you being earlier in your career, Tim, like how do you feel about this? Do you have a purpose? Have you defined that?
Do you have values to go along with that? wonder because we're farther along than you are as far as just straight age. What do you think?
Tim Doyle (27:14.754)
Yeah, I feel like I'm currently within that stepping stone phase where I feel like from 17 to 23, 24, my purpose was like heavily focused within like fitness and physical exercise and sort of like building my body. Like that's like what I was obsessed about. And now it's more so shifting more so into more externally sort of helping with people.
I do a lot of work with people now in terms of a lot of mind body work when it comes to chronic back pain, because that was a similar experience within my life. And that's why I was curious to ask you guys about, did you find your purpose or did it reveal itself to you? Because I had this terrible back injury that completely destroyed my life in the short term, but now has revealed this much larger purpose within my life. And I would have never,
found that on my own or I would have never willingly been like, I'm going to create a chronic back pain business because that is what feels purposeful to me. Like that was never going to happen naturally on my own. And I feel like to a certain degree, like our greatness can't be scripted. Like it's just going to come to you and like Brooke, like what you were saying, it was like, you kind of get to a point where you're like, like light bulb moment. Like look at what has just been revealed to me.
So that's where I'm at within my life. And I feel like I'm just sort of like making that like, all right, like phase two of the purpose is starting to become uncovered. And like Brooke, you were saying, you know, three or four years from now that could look completely different, but there's just going to be this very personalized line that ties everything together for me, where it's like, wow, fitness was like a bridge to this next step. And now like I'm here and then this will be the next step to something even bigger, potentially.
Brook Cupps (29:14.754)
That's cool.
Tim Doyle (29:19.094)
I like in your guys writing how you create these dualities between things, because it's just easy to understand, you know, obviously the score that matters versus the score that doesn't matter. Talking about having a North star versus an end destination. And another thing that I find interesting is how you create this relationship between having an external and internal locus of control. How do we shift from that external to
internal locus of control, you think. And what even do you define those things as?
Brook Cupps (29:54.424)
Go ahead, Ryan.
Ryan Hawk (29:56.913)
I mean, we've kind of been hitting on this. You have to do the self-reflective work to understand your purpose, your own definition of success, your core values, the critical behaviors that make those values true. What I mean by that is like each core value has next to it a behavior so that you can literally grade yourself if you want. could have, I know Brooke does this.
You can check off. Did I, get my touches today to show love, right? Did I do extra work to, to, to live out my value of being passionate for me? Did I leave people, places and things better than I found them to show my, my, my thankful value, right? am I pushing my edges by my beat, by meeting with people who are far wiser than me and ask them questions to live out my curiosity value. So like whatever those values are,
That's how you live. think by the internal locus of control, the internal scoreboard is, is you don't, you almost just get myopically focused on those values and those behaviors. And if you do that, like everything else kind of takes care of itself. There is no real external thing to think about. If, if, if you live those out, I watched Brooks team play last night and you know, uh, to see those guys come together, I think one of their better players got hurt. Um,
And they just destroyed this other team. That was a good team, a team that I believe beat you guys earlier in the year. unless I misread that, but, just to see them live out being tough. I saw, Ethan Greenberg take a charge right under the hoop. saw three possessions in a row where guys were handsy on the ball and got steals from the pressure defense, like living out the values of being tough, passionate, unified and thankful when that, when those guys do that.
They live within the values that Brook has set over a decade ago. They won by like 20 or whatever against the team that was a really good team. So it's, it's like the external takes care of itself because they focused on the internal and what they're supposed to be doing to live out their team's core values. And that's a mean that they're going to win every game. Now they've won a lot of games. It doesn't mean they're going to win every game, but I do think it increases the odds greatly.
Ryan Hawk (32:19.514)
of the external taking care of itself when you live by the internal.
Brook Cupps (32:24.91)
Yeah, we did a workshop, right? I think it was with I don't remember who it was with. Inside it might have been inside global, but we talked circles of control. We took him through this exercise of circles of control. You got you got a circle that you have full control over. You got a circle that you can influence and you got a circle that's outside of your control. So as you go through there and you start listing the things that are fully within your control, there's really not that many of those things.
there's a few more things that you can influence and then there's a lot of stuff that's outside of your control. And what you realize as you write those down and you really start thinking about them is excellence lives like completely in your circle of control. That's exactly where excellence lives. The more you get out, the more you start thinking about the things that you can influence, the farther you stretch yourself from excellence, you get towards mediocrity. And then people that suck,
They just are always concentrating on the things that are outside their control and never giving any attention to the things that they can't control. I think those those three circles are like a good visualization of like this is excellence. Like you look at those things like if I just do those things, I've got my best chance to be excellent. So I like I love that exercise that we did down there with those guys. I thought it was it made it really clear.
Tim Doyle (33:48.76)
Focus on the inputs.
Ryan Hawk (33:49.107)
And when you do an exercise like that, Tim, and I remember that because it was one of the more impactful parts when we got feedback afterwards, you realize how much time, even people who, these are high, high performing senior, like president level, C-suite leaders of thousands and thousands of people they're leading. And still they're spending a lot of time outside of what's in the circles because they haven't, they hadn't done that work yet. And so,
That's again, what we hope to do is once you get people to first understand what that is and then how to actually live that out, they'll be better. And then certainly all the people and their lives that they lead will be better from that ripple effect.
Tim Doyle (34:35.012)
tying that into, I like think of that as like we only have control of the present moment. And I like that you guys talk about that in your book as well. You guys say, in the present moment, there is no sadness or depression from regret. And there's no nervousness or anxiety for the future. The present moment just is. Are there any practical tools that you guys have used within your own lives or brooke coaching other players to practice staying present, whether it's
For me personally, meditation has played a role within my life and just staying grounded, but would love to know either for your own personal routines or helping other people, practical tools that you guys use.
Brook Cupps (35:15.5)
Yeah, mean, meditation is a big thing for me. I meditate every day. We do some box breathing with our players, which I think is effective. I think the use of a breath to is is a very good reset button. One of the things we talk about is snapbacks. So I think I think one of the biggest superpowers of anybody that is able to be present is they control their inner dialogue. They're they're going to be self aware again. We're back to self awareness, but.
They are very conscious and aware of what they are saying to themselves. And when they catch themselves going down the wrong path, path that we all go down, they have a way to get themselves back to a strong voice and back to the present moment. We call that a snap back in the stuff that we teach. And a lot of times it starts with a breath. Okay, I gotta pause for a second. And then usually we'll say a mantra or some kind of phrase to get us back reset to the present moment.
We have those reset buttons with our team, with guys, especially emotional guys that get distracted by a call or a turnover, a bad play. We try to help them, give them some tools to bring themselves back to that present moment. But the real superpower is that inner dialogue. And it's okay to have a thought. I just finished reading this book called, Don't Believe Everything You Think. It was interesting and distinguished between a thought
and thinking and a thought is just, it's raining, right? Thinking is, it's raining and now my shoes are going to get wet. Now it's what a crappy day. Like those are different things. You can have a thought without having to go to that. And I think giving people giving people the, know, kind of like the grace to like, it's OK to have that thought. Like now let's move on. It doesn't have to snowball into something else. So.
But I tell you one of the most powerful things is talking about it because people don't realize other people have that. Like people think they're the only ones that tell themselves they suck and they're never going to be able to do it. They think they're the only ones. And so just having open dialogue about that is one of the most effective things I think you can do.
Ryan Hawk (37:27.678)
Yeah, broke it on a couple. think about Victor Frankel stuff and Man Search for Meeting and Liz Weissman talked about this when we recorded. remember just creating a bigger buffer between the stimulus and your response. This most hits me as a dad. You know, maybe I set the wrong expectations or I don't know, but sometimes I react and I almost always regret when I react to say a kid leaving a
a dirty dish or something or whatever, like something that's not actually probably that important, well, I'll react quickly and then I usually regret that versus if I create a little bit of a buffer between the stimulus, seeing the dirty dish and then how I choose to respond. when I, if I'm, if I don't regret it, usually what happens is I pause, breathe, and then even say, respond, don't.
react and it slows it down a little bit. I don't raise my voice then and I respond. Now I still want them to do the right thing in all things, but it's the chances of that happening dramatically go up as a dad. If I respond instead of react when I react, if I raise my voice or something like that, it never seems to go well versus pausing and breathing a little bit. And I think that goes for kind of everything at times. You know, this just happened like with
my accounting person, had like a flub with emails to some of my clients and I was super pissed and I reacted and I like fired off a couple of emails and it was stupid. Like I know better than that. I shouldn't have done it. I was traveling, I was at an airport, I was on my phone and I did it and I was like, oh, you know, and so later obviously I have to apologize and you know, I know better and that's what I'm telling you, Tim, like it's still a work in progress, even though I know I should have paused. Obviously don't send an angry email.
because they made a mistake, just let's give it a little bit of time and then we can address it so that I don't have to apologize for losing it for a second. So that's really, think what's needed is just for me is create a little bit big of a buffer, pause, maybe a little bit of silence, breathe a little bit and then respond instead of reacting in the moment.
Tim Doyle (39:48.452)
I had on Luke Arala on my podcast a little while back. He's a college football strength coach has worked with a lot of great players like Dak Prescott and to grill peppers when they were in college. and he said his main mindset with his work is he's not just building players, he's building people. And the way that I see that is play, people are very individual individualistic. That's who you are on your own. That's your authenticity.
And players kind of play a role within a larger organization and a team. So it's important, I think, to build both knowing who you are as a person, but also understanding how you can play a role within a larger organization. And you guys say in their book, there's nothing wrong with individuality and being different far from it. But within the context of a team, the impulse to stand out from one's teammates pulls in a direction opposite to being unified, opposite to being united with them.
So whether it's in sports, work, just life in general, how do you think we can strike that balance between knowing who we are on an individual level and going for that purpose and alignment and that authenticity, but also playing within a larger system and being a good teammate? Like, where do you strike that balance, Brooke, as a coach or just for yourself personally as well?
Brook Cupps (41:18.798)
I mean, I think it starts with you. Like when you are part of a team, you are agreeing to compromise or give something. And I think that's really the big thing is, are you willing to give? And that how much to give, that's the decision of the leader of that team. That's not my decision. When I choose to join a team, then I'm saying, OK, use me however you need to use me. That that's part of it.
And so, I mean, we have rules like we don't wear headbands. We don't wear like we don't wear arm sleeves. We don't wear leg sleeves. And guys have fought that a little bit. And the question I just say, how does how does that what's the point of that other than to make you look different? Other than the other than to create separation between you and the team, what's the point of wearing it? If you can give me a good reason why you need to wear it, I'll listen. But there's never really a good answer.
So you just are choosing to try to look different. think those things are issues when you are going out of your way to try to look different or try to separate yourself from the team. Then I think we have problems and I think I think the ability to be a good teammate is one that is like it is increasingly and increasingly a challenge because everything in society is about yourself. Take care of you. You're so unique. You're so different.
That's great, I don't disagree with it, but life's a team sport, man. Like, it is, and you can't change it. So, if you're not willing to fit into your family, if you're not willing to fit in with your group of friends, if you're not willing to buy into what a team is trying to do, it's gonna be a rough go. And so, I think it's a humility and a willingness to give to the team over yourself and accept what comes from it.
Tim Doyle (43:17.828)
When it comes to creating motivation, you guys talk about how athletes use negative fuel or will almost create narratives of comparison to drive them to work harder or play harder, perform harder. And I think that's really important to do at times. Building off that though and shifting to the real world, I feel like I've done that to a degree where
almost like in a negative sense, actually, where like, whether it's working on things that feel purposeful, like the podcast or just anything, I'll create this narrative of like, Hey, like, this is going to be really hard to do. So like, you got to suffer to like, really make some progress here. And I feel like when I, when I just have those types of lenses on, like I'm creating this type of narrative that like, no matter what I do, like, this is going to be really hard. And yes, I think that's true to a degree.
But like, also want to allow myself just to kind of live in that flow state and sort of just be present and like do the work. and Brooke, I know you talk about this in the book actually a little as well. Like when you were talking about like, how could a high school basketball coach provide any insights to CEOs and business leaders? How do you think people can go about unlearning those narratives that they set for themselves that
actually are probably drawing them back from making progress rather than helping them.
Brook Cupps (44:51.746)
Yeah, I mean, it's funny. I had this conversation with a swimmer that I've been working with with her core values and stuff, and she's getting ready to swim in the sectionals. And she's like, I feel like I'm using dirty fuel. You know, so she's asking me about it. And we talked about exactly what you said. It's not it's not that it's never useful or that you it doesn't benefit you. But you have to be aware that you're using it because you can't sustain it. Like you cannot keep burning that fuel. And so
It's OK to get it started. Like sometimes throw a little gas on the fire like it'll it'll burn faster, but you better make sure you got some actual stuff in there to keep it burning. Right. And so I just think I think you've got to be aware of it. And then you've got to understand and realize that fear, which is what you're talking about. That's all it is. It's fear can never measure up to love. It can't look like if you find something that you love doing.
You will persist and do that way, way longer than if you're fighting fear of something. Running to something is way better than running away from something. And so I think it's just that understanding, that realization. You might be doing the exact same thing, but if your intent is fear or your motivation is fear versus love, it's gonna burn you out at some point and the work is gonna be compromised because of it.
Tim Doyle (46:19.588)
The reward for producing great work is the opportunity to keep doing it. I like to say to myself that the only thing I truly have access to is the work where when you have the mindset that it becomes easier for you to understand what work feels good to you and what work doesn't feel good to you. Have you guys ever had moments in your life for long periods of time where you were doing work that
didn't feel aligned or authentic to you? And if so, how did you shift into a place in your life where you were working on things that did feel aligned to you?
Ryan Hawk (47:00.605)
Hmm. I wish I had... Go ahead. don't have a good answer here. Go ahead.
Brook Cupps (47:01.358)
Go ahead, Ryan. I got one. I got one real quick. I just I mean, I was doing the same thing when I was when I was at I was an athletic director and a basketball coach. So I started out teaching. taught for seven years and then I shifted over to become the athletic director and the basketball coach at my previous school. And I remember just being a time there was a stretch of about, I don't know, probably six or seven months where I was like, and I don't know if this is it. I don't. And it wasn't that I didn't love I didn't enjoy or love doing this.
the athletic director stuff, but it made me compromise my value of being around my family and the time that I was spending with my family. And I remember when I was like, okay, I'm not doing this anymore. it had nothing to do with the AD duties and jobs, but it had to do with my values that I was compromising within it. And so...
Those it was it was miserable those those that time and it was again It was fear-based instead of love like it so it just it sucks it sucks it out of you, man It just zaps you and you you can't sustain it and and you shouldn't shouldn't be trying to sustain it
Ryan Hawk (48:14.08)
Yeah, I think Tim, before I left to do this, what I do now full time, I'm not going to share all the deals, but the person that I went to work for when I was leading a sales organization, he got fired and I loved him. I still do. He's a good dude. We still talk. And the person they brought in, let's just say, we are not aligned at all when it comes to morals, ethics and values. And what happened
And if you report to that person in corporate America, right, it could be pretty bad. And what happens though is it has a negative ripple effect on all of the people that you love the most, namely your wife, right? They have to hear you talk about that person or whatever is happening. And so that was an experience to where I thought like, what am I doing? Even the people that worked for me were saying, what are you doing? How are you coexisting? How does, how was this?
a thing. And so the more I thought about it, like that was right. And so in a way, like I'm grateful that happened because it helped. It helped push me quicker to doing what I'm doing now than if the dude I loved was still my boss at the time. And so in a way you just never, especially for you, like earlier in your career, you never know if the thing is actually a good or a bad thing for you.
You just don't. You don't know. You think in the moment, this sucks. I hate this. I can't believe this is unlucky. This is whatever. Well, maybe or maybe not. So that's the thing too is, and I remember my dad being a huge help in that time. He's like, Hey, learn as much as you can learn as much as you can. Don't get a negative attitude. Your people are going to feel if you're mad, like learn as much as you can from the good and the bad of all of the stuff that you're seeing and you're around and you'll be onto something else later.
but learn as much as you can. just, I try to take that really to everything. It's just like, hey, just learn as much as you can from the situation. Even if like you're at a conference and it's like, what is this? Why did I come to this conference? Well, hey, learn as much as you can. Or you're in a situation where it, you're questioning like, what am I doing? Well, at least learn as much as you can in that situation and then go forward from there. And you just never know if that really, maybe you view it as unlucky in the moment or adverse situation.
Ryan Hawk (50:37.726)
that might actually be a really good thing for you. Now part of it is you gotta kinda make it a good thing, but don't just judge it immediately saying this is bad luck or this sucks or let me just try to like ride this out without putting effort into learning. I think that's the big mistake that people make sometime and then they just complain to their friends and nobody wants to be around complainers. don't.
And so I would say, what can you learn from that situation? And hopefully you take something from it that makes you better in the future.
Brook Cupps (51:11.31)
It goes back to stories too. I mean, that's all it is. It's a story you're telling yourself. So suspending judgment.
Tim Doyle (51:18.926)
that resonates with me on a deep level, what you said, Ryan. And the reason why I asked that is because my first job out of college was working in real estate. And pretty quickly, I feel, I feel like I knew that this work didn't feel aligned for me. And I just felt like this is not what I'm going to be doing for the longterm. But I had that similar mindset of like, this is where I am now going back to staying present. like, this is the work that you are doing right now. Learned a ton of great skills, made some great connections.
learned a lot from people who are at the peak of what they're doing. And I think that also plays into when you're in an environment like that, or you're doing work like that, where it feels like this isn't what I truly want to do, but I'm going to continue to do the work. almost allows you to even further detach from the results because you're like, I'm just here to learn skills and do good work because I know I'm not going to be here for the longterm. So I'm not necessarily like as tied to that external result.
as much and that has now allowed me to take those skills and do things that feel more aligned. So then you create that combination between building great skills at that first spot that I was at with the work that I truly want to be doing.
happiness, happiness is always available and never needs to fade. is accessible daily moment to moment. It's an internal scoreboard with an external interface. Over the course of your guys lives, how is your internal scoreboard evolved? And I think this goes back to purpose evolving. How is that internal scoreboard evolved for you?
Ryan Hawk (53:06.144)
I would say I didn't even think of it that way. I grew up in an external scoreboard world and did not think of any other thing other than trying to have more points than whoever I was playing against or even on my own team just trying to be the guy who was the starter in all sports, point guard, quarterback, shortstop, pitcher, whatever.
just the acknowledgement that there is such a thing was a breakthrough for me. And then, trying to live in alignment with that is an ongoing process. So yeah, I would say like the sooner, the better that you realize this. It doesn't mean you don't want to win the games you play. Like I know Brooke is too, we are very competitive humans. When we play a game, we want to win the game. Like I definitely have that competitive fire that has not gone away.
But that doesn't mean that like everything in life is like, do I win or how do I beat somebody else? It's like, no, in the moment, if I'm playing a game of flag football, I want to win or basketball, I want to win. But it's, it's like the 24 seven living in accordance with again, my purpose and values and behaviors. And if I do that, that creates, it just seems to create cool opportunities in life that feels like winning, I guess you could say. And so that's
For me, was just the acknowledgement that there is such a thing to now having these aspirational values that I try to live up to every day.
Brook Cupps (54:39.382)
I would just say, I mean, I completely agree with that. The recognition that it exists was, I mean, was, you know, massive. I would say the way it's changed me is, is I don't see the finality in things that I used to see. think an external scoreboard creates deadlines and finality that is not, not actually present that you tell yourself is present. And so when you can view it in that long game again, like Ryan talked about, think it just changes your joy and your happiness that you're
that you're operating with throughout everything that you do.
Tim Doyle (55:14.978)
Ryan, Brooke, it's been great talking with both you guys. Really appreciate you guys for taking the time. Where can people go to support all the work that you do and find out more of everything that you do?
Ryan Hawk (55:26.56)
I mean, our book's called The Score That Matters. So wherever books are sold, I think that's best. My podcast is called The Learning Leader Show. It's my favorite thing to do, speak with a person far wiser than me and try to, you know, chase my curiosity with great rigor. so you just anywhere you listen to podcasts, it's search Learning Leader and you'll find that.
Tim Doyle (55:53.55)
Brooke, anything? No.
Brook Cupps (55:53.71)
I I got a website that I blog I write a weekly blog on blue color grit calm so and then Ryan and I do some other work outside of this that definitely ties very closely to the score that matters so appreciate you having us on Tim
Tim Doyle (56:09.858)
Awesome. Brooke. Yeah, Brooke, the one last question I have for you actually, when I was reading the acknowledgments at the end of the book, one line from yours really stood out to me that I was curious about. Thank you dirt for keeping me me. What does that mean?
Brook Cupps (56:25.132)
Yeah, like I mean, I grew up, I would say low middle class and I just like, I just remember like, I remember my first house not having any food in the fridge. I remember having mufflers that were tied up with a a hanger and I remember going outside my car not starting. So I think that's a good place to stay.
Tim Doyle (56:47.574)
Awesome, yeah, and I love about how you talk about how your dad rewriting the playbook for not only his life, but your entire family. So that was awesome. Guys, I really appreciate you for taking the time.
Brook Cupps (56:58.798)
Thanks, Tim.
Ryan Hawk (56:59.488)
Thank you, Tim.
