Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
Outworker
#060 - Yossi Ghinsberg - Surviving The Amazon & Transforming Fear Into Power
Yossi Ghinsberg, who survived three harrowing weeks alone in the uncharted Amazon jungle in 1981, unpacks the raw power of real versus imagined survival—revealing how confronting true danger in the Amazon sharpened his presence, rewired his understanding of fear, and exposed the toxic illusion of everyday stress. From hacking the mind with breathwork to redefining courage, he shares insights on what it means to live a meaningful life—and how returning to the very place where he survived helped him develop the jungle and further evolve himself.
Timestamps:
00:00 Surviving Life To Thriving In Life
09:20 Real Survival
12:45 Imaginary Survival
28:17 Repeating Stories Can Dilute Stories
35:46 Yossi Turning His Story Into A Movie
43:39 Not Being Traumatized By This Survival Experience
48:20 Returning To The Amazon
1:03:12 Embracing Fear
1:08:27 How To Get Out Of Imaginary Survival
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What’s up outworkers. Yossi Ghinsberg, who survived three harrowing weeks alone in the uncharted Amazon jungle in 1981, unpacks the raw power of real versus imagined survival—revealing how confronting true danger in the Amazon sharpened his presence, rewired his understanding of fear, and exposed the toxic illusion of everyday stress. From hacking the mind with breathwork to redefining courage, he shares insights on what it means to live a meaningful life—and how returning to the very place where he survived helped him develop the jungle and further evolve himself.
Tim Doyle (00:12.61)
A lot of the people that I talk with and it's stemmed from my own personal experiences as well. We have gone through a season of survival where we have some type of unwilling challenge or obstacle that comes into our life. And instead of having a growth mindset and feeling like we can progress in life, it's more so a feeling of just trying to get through the day, trying to get through the week, trying to get through the month.
Yossi Ghinsberg (00:42.015)
Mm.
Tim Doyle (00:42.648)
But from my own personal experiences and a lot of the people that I talk with, we reflect back on that season of survival as the thing that really sets us up to thrive in life and the thing that is the launching pad for us to reach new heights. And I'm using survival here in metaphorical terms. You have come face to face with
survival in its purest form. How do you think that three weeks of surviving in uncharted territories of the Amazon jungle ultimately set you up for a life where you could thrive?
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:28.999)
That's a very, very good beginning of this conversation. It brings depth to it because I think that's the essence really. Even the essence of life and I think it's survival is not just an analogy. Survival is the real essence of life. In the end of the day, when the challenge comes, we immediately realize that the most precious thing that we have is just the next breath. We want to live beyond everything else.
And if the situation materializes, we'll give up everything. Everything, absolutely everything for just one single breath. Survival is the essence because what survival means is all done to dear life. And dear life is sacred. So it's about survival. And I do understand survival. I was blessed with a very extreme survival experience. I'm saying I was blessed...
because as opposed to your description of challenges in life, which I agree, challenges can look daunting, depressing, or you know, too hard, etc. My perspective is, if you can complain, it's probably not tough enough. If you have time to complain, the situation is not tough enough. When the situation is really tough, there's only one
One thing you can do, which is take the right action. There's no time to do anything else. And so that's real survival. Real survival is the best thing that can happen to an organism because an organism under real survival immediately arrives at peak performance. Now peak performance is good for extreme circumstances.
I'm saying that because peak performance is not good for the day-to-day life. You don't want to be at peak performance. You want to be at optimal performance, not at peak performance. Peak performance consumes everything in you, you know, just for that peak. Because at that peak you need everything, every single resources. You need all of it. Be it mental or emotional or physical or spiritual.
Yossi Ghinsberg (03:55.675)
you need it all. It feels great to be at peak performance. It's euphoric, literally euphoric to be at peak performance. Also, it's a superhero, real superhero. And this is like people become superheroes. physically, a mother can lift a car if a baby is trapped under the car, you know, and amazing feats are possible at
peak performance. And that peak performance is organic. It's not contrived. Like you don't call it. It's there. You don't need to prepare for survival. You're ready. You're ready. Because we are an organism. And I purposely say organism and not human. Because it's true for a bird and a cockroach or a mosquito.
They left the intelligence to hold on to their life. I think it's not even the organism, it's life within the organism that wants to preserve itself. It's that strong. As I say, it's almost you don't have a choice here and almost it's not up to your character. In real survival, life kicks in, all your faculties awaken, you're at peak performance and you deal with the situation. And of course, we know the classic ways of dealing with the circumstances, which are fight, flight.
And sometimes it's fright or freeze. And we can discuss that as I had no choice but becoming an expert in survival. What I mean by that, one thing is to survive, but because my story is so dramatic and it was so widely spread, people associate me with survival, so I also had to learn about survival and to explain what survival means, etc. So I can say that I'm an expert on survival.
but a lot of my understanding is counter-intuitive.
Yossi Ghinsberg (05:57.051)
I believe that the challenges of life, they create an experience of survival. They create that survival, the experience is real. But the situation is not real. So there's discrepancy between what the organism feels and to the environment.
There is no danger in the environment, but the organism got the cue and the mechanism of survival was activated. So now there is a survival... I mean, the organism experiences survival, which is, as I say, the best thing that can happen to an organism is to be at peak performance.
However, there's nobody to fight and there's nobody to flight from. There's nobody and I want to explain that because the challenges in life are not survival but we do believe that they are. So they become real. But because of the discrepancy, actually it achieves
the opposite result. So the result of real survival is to save life. The results of imaginary survival actually destroys life. Actually nothing makes us weaker, disintegrated, diseased and even premature death.
you know, it's the precursor to all disease. We call it regularly stress, but I don't call it stress. For me, stress is imaginary survival. What is stress? It's an activation of the stress mechanism, which is supposed to kick in in survival without any good reason. And I want to, with your permission, I want to explain that because I think it's really important to understand how it happens. What's the mechanism.
Yossi Ghinsberg (08:13.481)
So let's take a look at it.
In real survival circumstances, how do we know that we are in real survival? As I say, it's not up to us. The organism will actually identify the situation itself. And the answer is quite simple. Our senses will tell us. So let's put an example. Let's say I'm walking in the... I'm tracking in Montana. I'm just inventing it.
and there's a bear coming out of the woods. So the moment a bear comes out of the woods, I'm in a survival circumstance right now. The bear is dangerous, the bear is maybe scared and that's why the bear will attack or the bear is hungry or whatever it is. But now I'm under a bear attack. How do I know? Well, I see it with my eyes. I see the bear. I hear.
the growling of the bear. If it's close enough, I can smell the bear. And if it stumps, I can actually feel the earth shaking. So apart from taste, four out of my five senses were activated.
Actually, if you are sensitive enough, as most animals are, there is a sixth sense that animals have, and it's called the presence sense. Which basically means that you are so present in the circumstances that even before your senses saw the bear, or heard the bear, or smelled the bear, you can feel the bear. You can feel it. There's something, the stillness of the forest.
Yossi Ghinsberg (10:04.671)
Maybe the birds that saw the bear and something, you know, so there's such a presence that that sense actually is very important. It's like in the air, you know, like so you can sense the danger. So we understood that in that example, the survival situation is noticed by our senses and the sense I can
I it, I can see it, I can smell it, I can hear it, I can sense it. I'm in danger. Okay. And then, survival is activated and now it's appropriate. There is a bear and I'm in survival. My body gets, what does it mean? The parasympathetic system is activated. I get a lot of hormones of all kind of like hormones that are sub...
give me energy, me clarity, give me courage. My body injects me with like the full potential because I need it. I need to run if I run the fastest I ever ran. If I need to confront the bear, I need to pick up a piece of wood or a rock. I have to be really accurate and I have to reserve my calm while doing it, not to be in hysteria, not to let fear consume me.
So a lot of going on in terms of supporting me at that. So I'm flooded with hormones and these hormones give me the power that I need to deal with the bear. Now, let's look at imaginary survival, which is very common and much more dangerous than real survival. What kills us is actually imaginary survival, not real survival. What happens in imaginary survival is...
The senses atrophied, they're not involved. The sixth sense of the human being is not presence, it's actually the opposite. So when imaginary servare is activated, there is no bear. I'm not present, I cannot sense the bear. I cannot smell, I cannot see, I cannot hear, I cannot feel. There is no bear.
Yossi Ghinsberg (12:31.423)
So my senses are not involved in spotting the danger. What is involved is only one sense, which is the human sixth sense, which is called the mind. So my sixth sense, the mind as a human being, sinks. Yeah. And the thought creates image. And now it's all in my head and the body because
Also we have to know that the survival mechanism is very primitive. It's really old. It's not in the neocortex. It's part of the vagal nerve system. It's actually in the gut mostly. And so this sense, this, I mean, this faculty doesn't know. So if the brain tells survival, the bear screams bear, even though the eye didn't see the bear.
and the nose didn't smell the bear, it's enough that the mind said bear and let, you know, the bear can be the bank account or, you know, the girlfriend or the boss or, there's so many things that stress us in life that gives the cue. The cue is received in a way, and that's also important to note, in a way it's a flood of cues. It's not a cue, it's a flood of cues. And this, we are flooded by cues, weak.
there's nothing we can do to fend the queues because we all a queuing machine that send us a lot of queues all the time so never before we had something that will give us so many queues so we get notifications and impressions beyond any human that was ever alive this is the peak of like impression floods a lot of the impressions are queues because
for example, news by definition, the definition of news is bad news. That's the definition of news. News is bad news, that's the definition. And bad news is on purpose because that primitive reaction creates a certain addiction, you know? So we can say we are almost, well not almost, we are addicted to that cue, okay, that activates. But the activation, because
Yossi Ghinsberg (14:58.897)
of the discrepancy instead of giving us the power, it poisons us. And this poison actually gives the base for disease and disintegration and early death. So that's the difference between survival that is real and survival that is imaginary. Real is based on senses, imaginary is based on the mind. The body experiences survival in both cases. In one case, it's appropriate.
In the other case, it's completely not in sync with reality. And now this doesn't disappear by understanding. It's not like, as I say, we cannot fend it. So we need to fight back. In order to manage imaginary survival, we have to fight back. Fighting back means we have to be aware that this is not survival.
It's not real. It is survival, but it's not real. And we have to remedy it. Most people don't know how to remedy it because they think that we'll remedy it with the mind. For example, I will say, I listened to this podcast and I heard Yossi speaks about that. Now I understand. So when a bear, imaginary bear is showing up, I will say there's no bear and don't worry.
actually just imaginary and I'll give my mind all the explanation, all the rationale that we spoke about and the mind will understand. It doesn't work like that. You cannot cure the problem with the problem. Okay? You cannot say, okay, I'll think about something else or let's do this exercise. What's the worst circumstances and let's mitigate it. It doesn't work. Don't try to fight the mind with the mind.
So my way of dealing with it is actually very, very simple, but very, very effective. And this really can change life, prolong life, prevent disease. And it's very simple. There's two things that I do, and they completely change the circumstances and immediately. I do the opposite. I go back to the senses.
Yossi Ghinsberg (17:24.681)
So when I'm stressed, instead of thinking about it and trying to say don't stress and it's not real and what can happen and all that, doesn't help. What I do, I just tell my mind, do whatever you want, I don't really care. Keep doing what you want, you know, that's the best way to do it, just take the sting out of it the moment you say, I don't care, you keep imagining and think what you think and then you connect.
If you're near a window or outside it's better but just I do a minute and I move from sense to sense and I fully dwell in the sense. So for example when I look, when I activate my eyes I will activate my eyes by looking, scanning. I wouldn't just look, I will do that movement.
Now, because that mechanism is very primitive, the mechanism understands. The mechanism understands that the mind doesn't have to be involved. That movement is obviously movement of scanning the horizons and the eyes are giving information. Now the mind now can tell whatever stories. The eyes now broadcast. I don't see no danger. Now I activate my ears. I activate my nose.
I'm my feet on the ground and I'm trying to awaken my presence sense. Yeah. And on top of it, I do some things that is like the switch and that's like a gift, you know, like to know that it's very simple. Everything that I say is very simple, but extremely effective. The switch is the breath. The breath can turn off the imaginary survival because
in a survival situation. As I said, it's an imaginary survival, but in the organism it's real. So, the body now, it's so stressed, the organism, I give him the opposite cue, and the opposite cue is slow exhale. A very slow exhale. So when I exhale so slow, you cannot be in fight or flight.
Yossi Ghinsberg (19:43.697)
and have the time to just take a deep breath and then really slow, slow, slow, slow release the air. Basically the body relaxes and almost you get an euphoric sensation of calm. Now I've changed circumstances in very extreme circumstances where you know my mind was losing it, okay? And there was so much fear.
I'm tempted to tell you a story that, you know, it's a bit off, but I will tell it anyway so you have an example. Now, it was like about, I don't know, maybe 20 years ago. Okay? I was in LA with a fashion designer. I was a guest of a friend that was like... At the time, he was like quite... Thought after as a fashion designer.
A fashion photographer, Anyway, it doesn't really matter, but what happened is I was in his house and he said he gave me a jar with some grass and said, why don't you roll us a joint? I'm just jumping for a minute and I'll be back and you know, we'll just have a minute. I said, okay. So I just rolled the joint and it was like a piece of cardboard for a filter and some tobacco.
I you call it a spliff in the States or something. And so I just rolled the spliff, okay? But what happened? He didn't come. He didn't come back. So I just went to sleep. I had an early flight and I just flew to Dallas where I had like a business engagement. And then I flew from Dallas to New York and I just had my little bag with me. Flying from Dallas to New York.
For reason I was chosen to be screened and somebody went through my Inside my bag there was a little bag with my toothbrush and stuff. Suddenly pulls the joint out of my bag. Now he's holding the joint, he's looking at me. Now this is 20 years ago.
Yossi Ghinsberg (22:05.407)
Yeah, in Dallas. Yeah. And it's not legal and it's Dallas. And he looks at me and it tells me don't move, just sit here. And I see him going and he's talking to the officer of the NSA, you know, like he's talking to the officer. At that moment, my mind just loses it because I'm a professional keynote speaker. I have agents.
Tim Doyle (22:06.915)
Different time.
Yossi Ghinsberg (22:33.041)
If I'm now arrested and the fingerprints and maybe I'm evicted, you know, like I'm deported, my career is gone, my reputation, my good name and everything goes down. Now I depend on it. So now also my income and my family. And suddenly my mind created a huge disaster. Now a pack of bears attacking me, you know, and I see everything. I can imagine all.
the danger of everything that and it's logical okay it's logical okay but I remember that I know what to do so I go to the body okay and I go to the body and I start screening my body and in a strange way I'm totally relaxed and I don't pay even attention so now I'm totally relaxed and I do my breast exercise
And I'm so relaxed. My mind is still running, but my body has calmed down completely. And now the officer is coming. Now the officer is coming. Now he's holding the joint. And he's calling me, said, come over. I'm coming over, open chest, I'm smiling. And he's telling me, is that yours? I say, it's mine. He's saying,
What is it? He's holding it absolutely, you know, it cannot be something else. You know, it's obvious what it is. So I look at him and I say, well, it's a cigarette. He's saying, what kind of a cigarette? I look at him. I say, American spirit. He's saying, sir, have a nice flight. Puts the joint back in.
Closers my bag, giving me my bag. And now I'm flying to New York. Now I'm telling you that without me manipulating the situation and changing the imaginary survival to there's no survival, there's circumstances, but I'm not about to die. My life is not in danger. All right. There's the stories, there's the challenge, but my life is not in danger. If I would come to him with all that fear.
Yossi Ghinsberg (24:59.027)
With all the tension, everything that I saw would happen. So what I'm saying, the power to be there present at the moment and identifying imaginary survival and intervening as other aspects. The other aspects are exactly these aspects. We are a broadcast machine.
So when I'm stressed, besides all the yield doing that to my own body and psyche, the disintegration of faculties due to the stress, apart from that, I am broadcasting now.
I'm broadcasting stress. That stress that I'm broadcasting, first of all, is dangerous for the environment. Let's say if you're very stressed and you come into a room, you're stressing everybody else because you are projecting it. Okay? So now I become contamination to the environment, first of all. Another aspect is that it goes beyond the environment into the universe.
and it tells the universe fear. So basically I'm now attracting what I don't want. I'm sending, I'm projecting and that projection attracts exactly what I'm afraid of. So you see all the levels of how bad it is. So, sorry, it's kind of a long answer.
Tim Doyle (26:34.222)
That was a great, that was a great, side story. And I think that illustrated what you were saying perfectly well. And to bring it back to what I was asking, because how I said, you know, I was talking in terms of survival and metaphorical terms, and you added onto that by understanding, there's real survival and then there's imaginary survival. I have felt on a deep level.
being in a state of imaginary survival. And that wasn't me knowingly putting myself into that state. Like I didn't, I wasn't believing that, but I felt it on a physiological level and a neurological level. And that resonates on a deep, deep level. And what I love is because like we were talking about before we got on the podcast, my initial
Thoughts for this conversation were to do a deep dive into your survival story of being in the jungle and how you got through this. And what I love about the conversation so far is...
Yes, it's an incredible story that you have, but the wisdom that you were able to garner from that entire experience is worth so much more. And it is so much more incredible to listen to and can be beneficial for people. Like that's where the true value comes into play. And I know how we were talking about earlier, like the more you repeat a story, the more it just gets
diluted and it loses its strength. Why do you think the repeating of story does that where it kind of just loses the, it loses its spark.
Yossi Ghinsberg (28:33.503)
It doesn't have to be like that. It doesn't have to be like that. But what I feel when people want just the story from me and then the interview goes into and then what happened and then what happened and I find myself just telling an old story. So it's a bit for me boring and repetitious and regurgitate, you know...
Ruminations or regurgitating and that's not a good Feeling and also I feel like okay. You don't really care about me. All you want is my big story, know, and I kind of like sometimes feel that I mean But a bit you know, like I had some big big podcasters that I said no they said no No, we don't care. We still we just want the stories and okay. Well, I'm not interested
Nonetheless, it doesn't have to be like that. I'm happy to tell the story. But when I tell the story, I don't actually tell exactly what happened. I don't remember anymore what happened. I tell you why. I went through this adventure three weeks in the Amazon and basically two months because the months led to it where we were four people in the Amazon.
and then three weeks on my own and then a week after my survival so the story of two months in the Amazon yeah now I went through the story and then I wrote a book which is like a document like because the book was written six months later and I was too young to be an author you know I just it was a journal I just wrote what happened to me after that the book was translated many languages
There were many interviews and many articles and then there were like different movies, documentaries, were two. And then it became different forms, the story and also like a Hollywood movie. Now being involved in all that, I don't remember anymore what's part of the movie and what's part of the... I just don't remember and it doesn't really matter anymore.
Yossi Ghinsberg (30:59.551)
Sometimes in the movies they portrayed it much better. It makes the story better. What does it matter that it actually happened differently? Who really cares? You know, the authenticity is in the voice, in the substance, in the connection, in the value and not necessarily if it exactly happens that he told me this and you know, and I have to repeat exactly what happened. You know, I think that in general, know, life is a story. So...
You need to be a good storyteller in life because it's all about the story. Stories are important. Reality is something that is very hard to pin down. Like things happen. But I don't think any of us can have the real intelligence to actually understand why and how things happen because so many circumstances align together.
to create a minute or an encounter as there's so many layers and everything happens while moving because reality is a moving thing. know, like there is no now, the now is a movement. It doesn't stop. So for you to grasp what's happened now, it's impossible. So happens what happens, you experience it, but immediately afterward you tell a story about it. It's not really what happened. It's the way you grasped it. And with time, naturally we...
improve the stories because we you know like the way we narrate it the way we remember it we you know we want to manipulate it this way or another so i say it doesn't have to be the truth because who can say that the real story was actually the real story and you know like those classic stories such as the kora saba rashomon that you know tells the same story five times five different depends or it's the fable of the
five blind monks and the elephant. The story repeats itself. It's very ancient. There is no truth. It's just our perception. So it's a story. So as long as I'm allowed to tell the story freely, I don't dilute it because I give it the now. I'm telling what is happening now to the man that I am today. Looking back and using those circumstances
Yossi Ghinsberg (33:25.171)
to bring who I am today. So my insights in the middle of the jungle, I tell them, but they're not. They're my insight today. I just give it to the boy because the story is important. The story is important. If I just give the insight without the story, people don't listen. People listen to stories. They don't listen to learning. They do, but their attention...
span is very short to teaching and very long when stories are told. So I love to tell stories and I don't mind telling parts of my big story if it supports and give value to your audience team by all means.
Tim Doyle (34:15.342)
incredibly well put and yeah I forget what the exact stat is but the retention rate of when you're talking from a place of research versus story based it's a massive gap between being able to retain a lot more information when it's coming from a vantage point where it's a story.
Like you said, or I had the thought as well, when we were going back and forth, I was like, yeah, so this happened back in 1981. And if we have a conversation about what exactly happened here, it wouldn't be like I was talking to you. It would be like the two of us were having a conversation about another person or like a movie character.
Yossi Ghinsberg (35:09.523)
Yeah, that's right.
Tim Doyle (35:09.718)
and it has become a movie character.
Tim Doyle (35:16.286)
And I want to talk about the movie process as well, because you said that when it comes into a story and turning it into a movie, it's not necessarily a sharing of the story, but it's the opposite of that. It's almost like you're letting go of your story. What did that entire experience feel like where you weren't in control?
Yossi Ghinsberg (35:38.727)
Well, it was difficult, very difficult for me because I couldn't release the story as a property and give that property to a producer and say, yeah, you know, I'm giving you the rights. I didn't. I refused to give the rights to the book, Exploitation as a movie. I refused. So I agreed to be a producer. So whoever wants to make that
story to turn it into a movie will have to deal with me as well, or just do what they want. And I felt that as a responsibility, especially to the other characters. Because sometimes they can do, and I've seen them doing it in treatments and screenplays that were written about my story and presented to me some terrible atrocities, know, to character, murder of characters. And those characters are important to me because two of them never came back.
and one of them saved my life and I have responsibility to be the guardian of these characters. So that was my main concern. So the movie, it took 26 years.
to become a movie and the story is great and I could have done it in the first three years. I had two opportunities in the first three years when I first arrived in Hollywood. I arrived in Hollywood, I believe it was 89 and after three years,
I left Hollywood and I said I will, you I'm not coming back because what I felt, you know, I came with the desire to make the movie and on the other hand, I wanted to maintain the integrity of the characters. But the desire to make the movie was so big that in the end I felt I was very close to start prostituting myself. I was about to do everything that I feared.
Yossi Ghinsberg (37:44.369)
I was about to do it myself just because you want the deal and you're there and I got scared of myself and I left Hollywood. I just left after three years and had no intention to come back. But in these three years I met a girl that became a very, you know, like successful independent producer and she came to me years later and said, you know, it's time, I'm ready, I want to take your story.
I said I'm not giving it to you, I'm not selling it to you, you don't have to pay me anything, but let's open a, let's form a company, a partnership, and I'm giving it for free to the partnership, but I am a producer and I'll have to be involved in it. And that's what happened. This movie was made almost three times. There were three times the movie was cast. The first cast was in those three years. I was then in Hollywood.
And Emilio Estevez, I don't know if you remember Emilio, the great guy, he was supposed to be the lead. And we had a great adventure in the Amazon for inspiration. I took him and the producer and the screenplay writer and the still photographer. And we all went to the Amazon and had a fantastic adventure. And everything went right until I saw the screenplay and then I refused to extend the option and I was thrown.
out of the office of this producer who said you'll never do business in this town and you know like was drama and I left. The second time was already with Dana Lustig that girl, producer and it was with Peter Josh Hutcherson, sorry not Peter, Josh Hutcherson. It was Peter in that movie The Hunger Game, yeah.
Tim Doyle (39:31.554)
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
Yossi Ghinsberg (39:34.975)
and is a great actor. He was already studying Hebrew and was like a great cast. And we had everything. We started shooting the movie actually in La Paz, Bolivia shooting, cameras rolling. And then one of the producers, he got cancer and he went through some very deep emotional whatever and he quit the movie.
after we already began and he pulled a few millions out of the budget and the whole thing collapsed. So this is the second time. And the third time was the movies that was made. It took 26 years for me to bring it. So people see the movie and think, wow, what a story. And then they made a movie. It's actually not like that. Every dream requires a huge sacrifice.
I would say the size of the dream begets the size of the resistance to the dream. So if you want to make a Hollywood movie, well, good luck. You have to have the persistence and the tenacity, the grit. But values are important and we made a movie based on my book. I was on the set.
Tim Doyle (40:38.734)
Mm.
Yossi Ghinsberg (41:00.409)
and I had big fights mainly with the screenplay writer. I called him my enemy in that period, but he was my enemy out of his own integrity. He wanted this artistic expression. And I remember I was told, Yossi, this is not a documentary. It's a feature film.
in a feature film, it's a collaboration and it's the talent of many people. So I had to let go. But the framework was we're telling the true story and within it, people have the creative freedom to express themselves, which is fair enough. I feel very comfortable with the movie. And the movie was titled Jungle and the lead is Daniel Radcliffe.
and he did an amazing job. I was on the set. It was a huge honor to see more than 300 people working, really working hard. It's incredible hard work to make a movie. And it was good for them to see me on the set, because it's a real story and here I was there. It's felt in the movie itself. They were very motivated. And also Daniel.
really is like a method actor. He really studied me and had long conversations and he's a great guy. And I'm really honored because it's a legacy to have a movie and movies now are eternal as opposed to before as film. Now they're digital and they live forever. So I'm very happy and proud of it. And yet, you know, it takes two months and to cut them into two hours, it's a big art.
You know, like to take two months and make them fit in two hours and you have to make obviously sacrifices. But I'm happy with the result.
Tim Doyle (43:00.45)
tying things back into your real life and also that side story that you told earlier about you being in the airport and being able to calm yourself down pretty quickly, either on a unconscious and physiological level or also having the conscious thought, are you ever just able like, and I guess in a difficult time, just like think to yourself,
If I can survive three weeks in the jungle, isn't anything I can't do.
Yossi Ghinsberg (43:34.249)
Somehow I never associated with that kind of like... It's not something that crosses my mind to think that way. doesn't. I never think that way. So it's not an example that I've experienced ever. And these three weeks of survival left me in a strange way without any trauma. I can tell you honestly, Tim, not even one nightmare...
Tim Doyle (43:42.68)
Mm-hmm.
Yossi Ghinsberg (44:04.731)
ever not a session with any therapist ever and no fear and I am so close with nature I don't know anybody that is closer beside tribal people I actually live outside of the house every single night I don't sleep in my house I sleep outside in a tent
and I'm doing it for decades and not because of what happened to me in the Amazon just because of the romance of it the sense of the adventure the feeling, the grace, you know like my tents are beautiful beautiful tent it's like sultanesque it's not like camping and it's not glamping it's actually sultanesque there's lush beds and carpets and sofas but in the end of the day it's a frame and a piece of fabric
That's all it is. So I am very, very close to nature in that sense. The way I think about this experience that can I relate to the notions that you raised is different. It's in appreciation. It's in appreciation. And that helps me. Let's say if I have issues, but I still have a roof above my head.
and there's food on the table and I'm healthy then I cannot really find myself being depressed or stressed and also stress doesn't touch me I think it's not like a process but I think my life was so extreme that extreme is normal for me you know what I mean? the extreme you know it's like I worked in drug addiction for many years I was
helping opiate addicts. so I learned a lot about addiction and there's something that is called tolerance, like you develop tolerance. I developed tolerance to extreme, know, tolerance. It doesn't affect me that much anymore. I think what stayed with me is the perspective, but I'm not thinking like that if I survived that, but I definitely am feeling grateful.
Yossi Ghinsberg (46:28.671)
Beyond the normal, know like to open the fridge and take food outside It's not mundane, you know, it's sacred and To be in a bed with the blanket. It's sacred I think most people take it as a you know, they can be very stressed while the life is so good to them The fridge is full of They have a warm blanket under a roof many times with somebody to give them warmth and they still can be miserable
which is, you know, it's all about perspective. I think that's a, that's a, you know, a flaw in us that we are so un-present. And, you know, we believe we're so remote from our being as a fully engaged organism and we just make basically a mind sitting on a body. And so...
I definitely recommend to, since you cannot stop the mind, then you have to hack it. And that's what I've become in my work with people. I'm more of a hacker than a consultant. So instead of trying, as I say, to pacify the mind with the mind, I bypass it. I find ways to bypass it. And I find it much more effective.
Tim Doyle (47:56.344)
that so that first time that you returned to the Amazon jungle to the very place that you had your entire survival experience was that just pure pride and excitement of making that return?
Yossi Ghinsberg (48:12.199)
My return was actually... When I returned to the Amazon, I wanted to see the people that were involved in my rescue. The people that I owe them my life. And there was Kevin, the main guy beyond my...
Survival rescue without any doubt the guys that saved my life literally an American hero for me He was always the real hero of the story. I was the underdog. So my story is maybe more interesting But as a character, he was a much more hero character than me and But Kevin
who wasn't in the Amazon. Kevin actually moved to Israel about a year after this experience and lived all his life in the vicinity. So I had opportunities to see Kevin. When I went to the Amazon, I went to see Tikko, the man that brought Kevin in the canoe, and the Chupiamona, the indigenous people that found Kevin in the river and then came back with Kevin and Tikko to help Tikko negotiate the river.
And I went up and I mean first I came to the jungle town of Rur and Abake and from there I met Tikko, the man with the dugout canoe and I asked him to take me up the Tuichi River. And we went up the river eight hours and then we climbed on the mountain and there's that village of the Urchupiamona. And it was just a visit, just a courtesy visit.
where I wanted actually to thank them and in a way close the circle, something like that. I haven't been there in 10 years. This was 10 years after my ordeal. So I went up to the village and there was a radio so they got notice that I'm coming and they were waiting for me. They're very remote, the Uchukyamona. And the kids...
Yossi Ghinsberg (50:36.807)
came from the school and they were like dancing and reciting songs for me and there was food and drink and the dignitary gave speeches. It was all kind of funny almost formally in the middle of the jungle this really indigenous tribe that they had their way of ceremony and then I gave a speech. My Spanish was very rusted after 10 years of...
not being in the continent, but I still could say thank you for saving my life and I appreciate it. And then the three leaders of this community, they came to me and said they want to have a reunion with me to talk with me. We sat together and they told me that basically they really appreciate that I came to thank them for saving my life, but they wanted me to know that they're dying.
the entire community is dying. They very dramatic about it. I got scared, I saw some disease or something and said, no, it's just that we're dying because our youth, they don't continue our way. They don't want to live here in the middle of the jungle. There's no grace in it anymore. We're just basically poor. It's poverty. know, once was the notion of the noble savage, but the noble savage was naked.
He was noble. The moment the savage was dressed, because the missioner came and said, no, it's actually, God doesn't like you being naked. It's immoral. Well, it meant that now the savage became poor because he had no money for nice dress. So he basically got tatters. And now he stopped being a noble savage and he became, you know, like, cultured. And that's what happened to them.
They were cultured and they were poor. And they said that the youths are leaving the village and due to that...
Yossi Ghinsberg (52:46.399)
and the community is growing small and they're worried that they're gonna basically disappear as a tribe, the Uchupiamona. There's only 850 people. That's the entire tribe. And I understood and I said, well, you know, the youths are leaving and they're going to the jungle towns on the big rivers and take any job, know, scraping floors or washing dishes.
whatever it takes just to make a few pesos and they don't come back to the village. I said, so how can I help? They said, look, we have a dream and we need help. said, okay, what's your dream? And they said that their dream is to build a lodge for tourists because there's a very beautiful lake a couple of hours down from the village. It's like pristine lake, beautiful. And there's many animals.
and they want to put a lodge there and in their vision this lodge will attract thousands of tourists from all over the world in their imagination people will come and they'll appreciate the beauty and their use is going to build that lodge and their use is going to run the lodge and be the guides and the boat motorman and the maids and the cooks and they'll make money
the youth would not have to leave the village but actually they will work in this lodge and more than that they'll take pride in their culture and as they explain about nature and about their they're real amazonians they've been there for who knows so i heard them and they said would you help us and i had no choice but to say yes you know in that circumstances
What could you do? know, say no, I'm too busy or I'm not really willing. But the circumstances doesn't give you any option by saying, of course I will, I'll do everything to help you. But in my head, I said, these guys have no clue what they're talking about. Because how are they going to put the lodge here? You know, there's no way to get here even. I just came to visit them. The flights are military flights only once a week.
Yossi Ghinsberg (55:12.043)
and it's on a grass landing strip so if it rains the flight is cancelled and it rains because it's the rainforest so and then if there is no flight the only other way to get there is by the road and the road the name of the road is the death road because no road on planet earth has claimed so much life as the death road
the most dangerous road on the planet and then just to get to the jungle and then you have to take a boat for six hours upriver and then you have to walk an hour through the and it's it's very complex it's very complex to move tourists and then who's gonna pay for it to build a lodge and you know like a facility but I couldn't tell them I couldn't tell them that it's nonsense then I thought it's nonsense but I couldn't say it so I said I will help you
And there's something about that, you know, because it haunted me. I went back to LA and I couldn't sleep well because I knew I saw their faces, you know, I saw the kids that came to meet me and the ceremonies and the dances. Nobody comes there. They're completely forgotten deep in the forest and have no opportunity.
And I promised them that I'll help them. I did promise them, but you know, and I did talk to a few people in the vein. Everybody told me you're crazy. What do you want? You know, Indians in the middle of the jungle. What? So I couldn't talk to anybody that will sympathize with me. And, you know, like they just helped me with that notion that, you know, but I still, I wouldn't sleep well at night. You know, I said I had no ever.
no nightmares, but their faces, they haunted me. I said, I promised them to come back. I have to do something. So what I did, I, with my girlfriend, we talked to people and we decided we'll do a party and we'll raise money at the party. And people, know, like somebody gave us the very fancy nightclub, closed it for the night just for us.
Yossi Ghinsberg (57:41.029)
and DJs and you know we spread the word and lots of people came and they gave money and I think I made like something like eight nine thousand dollars in one night and I took the money and I flew to the Amazon again and I went up to the village I put the money on the table this was like really a scene from the movies you know like they never saw money that much money ever in their life and I said I came
to help you as I promised. Let's start the project. And I stayed with them there for three years. For three entire years, I lived in the Amazon with them. And we built it. And it's one of the most award-winning resorts in the entire Amazon area. We opened it in 95. It's still active 30 years later. Thousands of people from all over the world.
have been there, including celebrities and kings and superstars. There's a long list of celebrities that came to visit. 140 other communities were inspired to start doing things for themselves. I raised money in Washington, D.C. I brought conservation organizations to, you know, suddenly we turned this into a center.
and we transformed the entire region from extraction of resources such as gold and logging and hunting. It's all about tourism now. It's all about guided tours and different facilities and survival experience. This entire village not only saved itself, it saved the entire region.
In the process they claimed the land as their ancestral lands. In the process the entire Madidi was suddenly turned into officially a national park. And they became the guardians of the park. Like a huge change. And it's all because they had no clue what they were talking about. If they knew, they would have never done it. They would have never... It was impossible. The thing is they didn't know. They didn't know it's impossible.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:00:06.519)
Six flights a day, bitumen landing strip, widened, the death road was fixed. They were actually... So sometimes, you know, the naive can do what the professional will never, never even attempt doing. And I think for me, that story is bigger.
than the story of my survival for three weeks. This was three years in the Amazon. And funny, it was on the same river, the same Tuichi River with the same people that were involved. I just came back from there last month. I am officially the ambassador of the Uchupiamana people to the world now, officially. I take it with, because I was there again.
Tim Doyle (01:00:59.949)
Bye.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:01:04.189)
after seven years that I didn't visit. And again, the same experience I saw the new generation and the kids and they're doing so much better, but still it's not enough. Chalalan, that's the name of their, the lodge, Chalalan Ecology, needs some more funds because Chalalan, instead of taking care of itself, Chalalan belongs to the people.
So the money from Charalan goes to the village and Charalan is not well maintained enough so they need more money and so I took it upon myself once again to do the same thing not to help them but to be part of them and help ourselves which is a totally different attitude and not wait for somebody to come and help you but actually take initiative that idea was there so now we came up with a
Different structure that is like a foundation that I'm now opening a foundation and the foundation they will have to help in promoting that foundation by creating content and all of them have phones now. They're on Facebook, they're on WhatsApp in the middle of the Amazon. They have reception, have satellite reception and they're all connected, which is amazing. So that story is still alive, Tim.
still alive, I'm still part of that community, I'm going back and now I took upon myself to be more involved.
Tim Doyle (01:02:39.982)
you're a hundred percent right that that story is more empowering and impactful it seems like because to heal your past from what you experienced surviving there, you're like, right, I want to build the future here. And you could have very easily just been like, I do not need to go back there. But it was the exact opposite for you.
You said wherever fear rises in my life, that's where I go. I don't turn my back to fear. I go towards my fear. Is there a fear? Is there a fear you currently have that you're embracing?
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:03:13.983)
That's it.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:03:21.799)
Yeah, look, I just want to... I'm saying that's something very dangerous to say and I'm trying to be careful with what I say because my belief is what you say and you know, will come and search for you, it will come and meet you. So if I say I walk towards my fear, fear will say, really? Let's see and fear will come and fear can be scary.
Tim Doyle (01:03:44.92)
Mm.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:03:47.997)
But I just want to be clear that I'm talking about those paralyzing fear that are not danger. I'm not talking about danger, not about risking your life, walking towards something scary. Of course, I mean to the fear of life, the fear of doing something and hesitating, or the fear of dealing and confronting.
and being authentic, allowing myself to shine that fear of, you know, like being so full of ego that I'm shy, you know what I mean? Because to belittle yourself is just ego. If you have no ego, you have no reason to be humble, you know, like because you're in the service, why be humble about it?
So I meet those fears and the best way to deal with them is to walk towards them. And it takes practice and it takes courage even though we're not talking about, as I say, life-endangering fear. But many times we're just afraid from a confrontation or for saying what we really believe, showing our authenticity. We're afraid of our own dreams.
We're afraid to fail and we're more afraid to succeed than to fail. And we're afraid from relationship because we are afraid that they see us for who we are and we don't want them because we doubt ourselves. So we fear showing, you know, our real color, our authenticity. And all those fears are
life killing and life paralyzing and one needs to train. I grew on that book Dune, I think I read it like 50 times. There's like a protocol.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:06:01.883)
of how to deal with fear. And you remember, there's like a protocol, something that Paul recites, is learning from Jessica, his mother, to not guesser it. It's their secret, you know? It's something that I really like. It's like, it's not real, you know, just go through fear and you'll come the other side and the fear will disappear, something like that. So, I believe that fear...
in that sense is good because it shows you the way because when fear arises now you know where you're towards it at least you have a guide to show you where you need to go and then I learned that actually that fear and courage are not the opposite but but actually they are the same because with no fear there's no courage you know like
The fear is the precursor for courage. If you're afraid, then you can actually harness your courage. If you're not afraid, then there's no courage involved. So actually, it's okay to be afraid. And courage is a huge virtue, and it's something that we need to cultivate.
and many, of us are, and myself, I'm not saying that I'm a master, but at least having been talking about that inspires me as well to remember that, because we meet those many little fears along the day, and I believe that it's our duty, you know, to actually conquer our fears, because we have a mythical...
journey in life and that's something that I came to realize and it's you know it's the basis of every story that was ever told basically it's called the hero's journey and what's so powerful about the hero's journey is that the hero is me
Tim Doyle (01:10:48.684)
We talked about imaginary survival at the very start of our conversation. What do you think the first step is for somebody who might be in that imaginary survival, how they can get out of it?
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:10:50.876)
Okay, sure.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:11:06.621)
As I say, the best is to hack the situation and not think it. It's much easier to hack than to use the thought process. So, you know, like there's many hacks today. It's a popular word like biohackers and et cetera. And I like hacking. It suggests finding a short way, a cut.
being smarter in how to manage it out of the box. I love technology, so I love hacking in technology. So I think the hacker approach, that's what I would give it as a title, you know, like to deal with it through the hacker approach. the certain ways you see like one way to hack the mind is to understand that you cannot control the thinking process. You can.
So by understanding that, you cannot say I'm thinking. Because if you're thinking, you can stop thinking. But since you're not able to stop thinking, that's probably not you that is thinking. You have no control over that. So that's the beginning of it, not associating. By not associating, you take power from that thought. It's not me thinking. No, no, that is just a thought. You cannot stop it anyway.
And so take the power from it, take the power from the soul. There's other ways, you know, like if something, let's say audio is powerful and you engage with it, you cannot think and be engaged, you know, like, and that's the other thing that you have to understand about hacking the brain is that it has only one channel and that's a vulnerability of the mind. There's only one channel. So if you can occupy the channel, basically,
Tim Doyle (01:12:59.63)
Hmm.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:13:04.029)
you turned it off, you know, so that's another good thing. you know, like the cart, he has the famous expression, I think, therefore I am. I say, I do not think, therefore I am. You know, it's actually the opposite is true. When I don't think, I can finally meet me, you know, the one that is thinking is not me.
Tim Doyle (01:13:28.984)
love that.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:13:29.919)
I would say that's the beginning. Just have an approach. Be practical about it. Be practical, not too much psychology. Not trying to understand and undo. Better ignore than try and understand. It's hopeless and futile, in my opinion, to try and resolve all these issues. And as I say, it's all stories. It's all stories. Most of our traumas, they never even happened. know, like most of our story, my father didn't love me, my mother did this.
It's stories, you know, like I had my stories like that myself. And once I spoke with my father, didn't even know what I was talking about. But I at certain age made some story and that allowed that story to end my life. So in general, the past, the past is malleable, you know, because you have to use the past for your own advantage. So feel free to edit your past.
And future is also malleable, but in a very different way because future you can manifest. And thinking is when you actually use that faculty. And then you're basically a master, you're a creator. That's what we are. Being a creator is our ability actually to imagine. So everything that I said about imaginary survival.
the positive aspect of it, that we can imagine anything. And I would say that focus on the brain power, on being brain, you know, when we engage with the brain, it's the most beautiful thing, that's what give us advantages as human beings. But when it comes to stress, don't deal with it, bypass it. Breast work, sense.
Activation which is all the very simple acts and very powerful ones very very powerful and as I said It's much deeper because you're changing the environment and you're changing even you know like Cosmic things, know the way events happen around you are changed just because of that radiation. It's important to remember That in the end we are not words. We are vibration We are vibration and if you deal with life as a vibrations as a lot of
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:15:51.301)
there for example if I meet stress of somebody else
So that stress is coming at me as a contamination. If I'm thinking, I'm not really present because now I get triggered by, you said that to me and now I'm triggered and now I'll give him back.
But actually if you present and you don't relate to the world and don't allow your mind just be reactive but you stay and you analyze the situation you remind yourself everything is vibration so now what I get is vibration and the way to deal with vibration is if it's a positive vibration you want it.
and you want to augment it so you send the same vibration and now you have more positive vibration but if it's a negative vibration you don't want it so in order to prevent it from coming to you you cannot send the same vibration to me because it will augment it you have to send the opposite vibration and that's an incredible hack because
The person that is contaminating you with bad vibration is not aware, it's just words and you know, but it's not words, it's energy. You understand that energy and you send the opposite energy and it's cancelling it mid-air. That person doesn't even know what happened, but you change the atmosphere because you're smart. So it's that type of work that I do is to be present and not...
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:17:43.871)
not reactive. In general I say, if anybody asks my advice, say stop playing ping pong, move to chess. When you have a chess, you have time to analyze and then you choose your move instead of like tak tak tak. So I hope that I enjoyed it a lot, Tim.
Tim Doyle (01:18:06.786)
Be more tactical.
Yeah.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:18:14.223)
And thank you for the opportunity. Thank you.
Tim Doyle (01:18:14.486)
Yossi, it's been great talking with you.
I really enjoyed this conversation and I think there's, like we were saying earlier, lot more value in the conversation that we had than just unpacking how you survived three weeks in the jungle.
Yossi Ghinsberg (01:18:29.117)
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for flowing with that. Thank you.
