Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
Outworker
#062 - Michael Chernow - How Discipline & Faith Rebuilt A Life After Addiction
Michael Chernow is proof that pain doesn’t just break—it can shape. He opens up about addiction, a turbulent childhood, and the spiritual and mental frameworks that helped him rebuild from the inside out. Through faith, discipline, and fatherhood, he’s learned to turn inner chaos into clarity and survival into growth. This is a raw, deeply reflective conversation about what it really takes to rewire a life and why healing isn’t a finish line, but a daily choice.
Timestamps:
00:00 A Passion For Creating
10:12 Introduction To Drugs & Alcohol
18:45 The Deeper, Complicated Relationship With Substances
28:53 Impact Of Faith, Especially At A Young Age
31:33 Entering The Restaurant World At 12 Years Old
39:17 Peak Of Michael's Addiction
47:32 Building A Daily Routine That Leads To Recovery
52:08 Stress Of Physical Health Problems
53:43 Setting Up Good Habits & Removing Bad Habits
59:19 The Alchemy Of Michael's Journey
1:06:54 Tapping Into EQ & Lance Armstrong
1:16:41 Recovery vs. Healing
1:27:12 Hidden Gift Of Podcasting
1:34:11 Connect With Michael Chernow
Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.
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What’s up outworkers. Michael Chernow is proof that pain doesn’t just break—it can shape. He opens up about addiction, a turbulent childhood, and the spiritual and mental frameworks that helped him rebuild from the inside out. Through faith, discipline, and fatherhood, he’s learned to turn inner chaos into clarity and survival into growth. This is a raw, deeply reflective conversation about what it really takes to rewire a life and why healing isn’t a finish line, but a daily choice.
Tim Doyle (00:06.494)
You've changed a lot throughout your life. Addiction, recovery, many different businesses. But is there a common thread from your young years up until now that you think has stayed present throughout it all?
MichAEL (00:21.12)
Yes, the unexplainable desire to make, do and create. I've always had that. I've always wanted to hunt. I think I was a born hunter. So discovery is really curiosity, discovery, in it for the hunt. You know, that's kind of what wakes me up in the morning.
and always has, even in my darkest of days, there was just this like, inexplainable need to uncover life.
Tim Doyle (01:05.642)
Do remember what that first feeling of creation was for you in your childhood?
MichAEL (01:16.514)
Well, I think it's a, if I think back on it, it's a culmination of a few things. My first real memory of wanting to sort of make and do and create was probably when I was five. And for whatever reason, if I had like poise that I was not interested in playing with anymore,
I would ask my sister to come downstairs with me in front of our apartment building. And I think I got this. I grew up in Manhattan. So I grew up in New York City. And walking up and down 86th street with my mother, in those days, there was always guys on the street with sheets laid out and things to sell, whether it was fake purses or, know, tchotchkes, whatever. There was always just people lining the streets with things to sell. And I think that inspired me.
And so when I had things that I didn't want or didn't use anymore, instead of piling them up in a corner, I would go downstairs, lay out a sheet and line them up and try to sell them to people for a dollar a piece. And I can't tell you why I wanted to do that so desperately, but it was something that really excited me. That was something that I was interested in. More artistically, I was drawn to writing at a young age.
I enjoyed writing and I actually just found, just, but maybe about a year ago, I found a journal from like first grade that my mother somehow got her hands on. And I was just writing about stories in my life that were happening at that time. As I got a little bit older, that writing became more of a poetry and I would write poems. So I've always had this
instinct to express myself through taking action. And whether that action was selling something, creating a business, writing a poem, acting, playing music. I did that too. I mean, I went to the, you know, I went to the high school for the performing arts and I played music all through high school, which I wasn't really interested in, but you know, I just, did and I was good at it.
MichAEL (03:44.492)
So yeah, making, doing, creating, taking action, sort of being a hunter of life is kind of in my DNA.
Tim Doyle (03:55.37)
find that really, really cool. And I resonate with that deeply. And I see creation as yes, it's a standalone thing, but it also needs to be understood in relation to consuming and consumption. And I'm a big believer that you need to be creating more than you are consuming. How do you think that has played a role within your life as well and understanding that duality of it and that relationship between creation and consumption?
MichAEL (04:29.026)
Well, it's interesting that you say that now because my wife and my two kids and I have just committed to a screen free week outside of anything that has to do with work. So we've all committed to it. It's actually something from our kids' school that they've proposed families do this for this week as we're sort of nearing the end of the school year and into the summer where screens can become a thing. When I think of consumption, unfortunately,
The word consumption today has a negative connotation because of all of the various ways we consume or we can consume. so consuming doesn't have to be a bad thing, but based on modern day, the society that we live in, when we think of the word consume, it is
bit of an egregious, almost greedy, selfish thing to do.
MichAEL (05:38.171)
I prefer creating over consumption.
on a large scale.
I find myself caught in the consuming hole at times, like we all do. I'm guilty of it.
And I hate it. I really do not like it. I know that being with human beings, laughing, telling stories, connecting, making memories is so much more rich. Like you can be rich in life by just that. By just that. If you spent 80 % of your time just doing that.
In my mind, you are rich.
MichAEL (06:33.046)
And that's so hard today. It's so hard to...
MichAEL (06:40.143)
make your life about being with others because most people have, you know, we've, we've all sort of gotten comfortable with this ability to communicate virtually.
and it's kept us inside.
It's kept us isolated.
Even my job as the founder of Creatures of Habit, my business is all about taking action. Creatures of Habit is all about making better decisions on a daily basis. Yet I still find myself most of my day working behind a screen. And I just know that that is the wrong place for a guy like me to be. So I had to take a real sort of gander at
my business and say, Mike, if the success of this business is contingent on your ability to be productive behind a screen, we are in big trouble, because you do not belong there. It's not the place for you to be. So I have to really take a hard look at that and understand how over the next three to five years, while I'm building Creatures of Habit to this goal that I've got.
MichAEL (08:00.876)
how I'm going to remove myself from 80 % of my time standing behind a screen.
Creativity is what I love to do. And so, though I believe there is a component of creativity behind the screen where I am on a daily basis, working.
It's not the kind of creativity that I like to conduct in necessarily because it's really just sort of admin busy work.
Consumption is something that I'm definitely trying to take a break from in the way that we kind of all.
bucket consumption in today. I would much rather
MichAEL (08:53.88)
consume other people's like, consume experience with other people than what we, you know, are all kind of stuck in today.
Tim Doyle (09:07.474)
And it's interesting because I would look at it as creating experiences rather than consuming experiences. And it just goes to the understanding of how language plays a role in that as well. And your relationship and anyone's relationship with consumption goes through different seasons and evolutions. And I'm having Dr. Ellen Langer on the show this week as well. She's a professor of psychology at Harvard and
a leading voice in mindfulness and mind, body health. And the reason why I'm bringing her up is because she said that within 45 years of all of her research that she's done, the number one thing that she reflects back on of what she's learned is that behavior makes sense from the actor's perspective or else he or she wouldn't do it. And getting deeper into your relationship with consumption in a way and bringing
your relationship with addiction and recovery and your relationship with drugs and alcohol into the picture. To set the stage with your relationship with drugs and alcohol, when you were very young, what did it feel like back then to have this thing that was consumption based, but was exciting and felt like it would really be able to help you?
MichAEL (10:31.731)
And when it comes to the substance.
MichAEL (10:39.166)
I think I have always also been a bit of an escape artist. I'm reading a book right now on this technique, this sort of therapy technique called mental emotional release. And it is very much based on the subconscious. The ability for us
to connect our conscious and subconscious mind is difficult, super hard. And our subconscious mind operates about 95 % of what we do every day. And that's kind of wild to think, right? To think that like there is a system within our being that is really almost impenetrable.
because the conscious mind in many ways is irrational, right? You can't talk it into believing something that may very well be true if it doesn't actually believe it based on the subconscious storing memories that impact and influence how we perceive life. And so I'm at super interesting stuff, but...
MichAEL (11:59.99)
In those days, I was riddled with fear and I did not feel safe at home, really anywhere, because my father was very, difficult and very tough on me arbitrarily and randomly and not in a, you know, it would just sort of
the manifestation of his anger towards me would just kind of take shape in a matter of seconds. And it was his stuff, it wasn't mine. But I was there as the young kid that probably annoyed him and frustrated him and got in the way of his narcissistic thinking. And so it was easy for him to take it out on me and use me as a target for projecting his pain. And I know that now.
you know, and I try my best to not blame him because, I mean, he's dead, he's been gone for a long time. But regardless, it just placed me in a very unsafe, fearful existence. And so I ran away all the time, all the time. That was my coping mechanism. As a little kid, I would try to find friends' houses that I could sleep over at. So my way of
You know, and this was sort of me cutting my teeth in the ability to play nice with others and work well with others and become a real people person, was I was able to sort of see early on that all I had to do was make them like me and I would get what I want. Didn't work with my father, but it worked with a lot of other people. And I discovered this at like, I don't know, seven, six, seven years old.
And so that was my first sort of adventure and escapism, sleeping over at friends houses. And it did, it really did help. I mean, it took me out of the danger zone. When I started to, I got a little older and then it led me right into the hands of a pedophile too. So that was not, that was like, uh-oh, now I've left this.
MichAEL (14:24.652)
danger zone. And I'm in this sort of false danger zone because I loved the guy who was grooming me. I love the guy. I mean, he was the he was the best. Even though he was molesting me, I didn't know what was happening. But he was he treated me like a son. You know, he like took and there was there was other kids involved. Right. So it was just like that was like, shit. And then I realized late a little bit later on my teens, my early
mid-teens, whoa, that was, that was, that guy was molesting me. Inspired unbelievable anger and fear and guilt and shame and judgment against myself. But when I was about 13 years, 12, 13 years old, I started smoking cigarettes in sixth grade with my friend whose mother smoked cigarettes, my father smoked cigarettes, but I would never dare.
you know, steal my cigarettes from my father. So my friend Tomiki's mom smoked cigarettes, we would steal her cigarettes. And then in seventh grade is when I first smoked marijuana. And that was kind of just like, was at my friend Danny's house, her family had money. I would always go with them on the weekends to their Hamptons house and her older sister smoked weed. And we just got some and smoked.
And I was like, and I remember the first time we smoked weed, was, we were sitting on like a grassy knoll in beautiful Bridgehampton across the street from her house. And we smoked weed and I kind of remember smoking it, not being afraid, because I had already smoked cigarettes. So was like, I just can't, know, smoking it and then laying back on the hill. And the hill was like, my back kind of like folded over the hill. And I was like, thank you, God. Wow.
I am safe. And I really felt that way. And that very quickly dominoed into harder drugs, way more frequent until it got really ugly when I was like 18. And from 18 to 20, you know, just before my 24th birthday, my addiction was
MichAEL (16:50.892)
I was deep in the claws and the shackles of it. It wasn't for fun. Even though I had fun, for sure, there were moments, right, where I'm partying and having a great time. But ultimately, it wasn't for fun. It was really more reliance. And I didn't think I could live my life any other way. And I got, obviously, you're in that world. I I got involved with all the wrong people, you know, became a criminal.
sought criminally a lot and ultimately overdosed. And so I don't, mean, there were definitely moments throughout that journey that I knew that I had so much more to offer. My creative energy was still there.
you know, there would be times where it would be, I'd be up for two days and I'd pull out a pen and paper and I'd write about how dark my life was and how I needed to find a way out, how I knew that I was an addict and inside, you know, I remember writing how I knew I was an addict and inside all I was doing was trying to nurse my younger self.
Tim Doyle (18:11.168)
So you were able to have that type of conscious awareness of that duality in the moment.
MichAEL (18:17.408)
yeah. yeah. Most addicts, most addicts will have, are very well aware of their issue. And even though outwardly they might not want to agree to it or admit it, they'll deny it and they'll be defiant. But internally they know this is not the way to live. And there's a negative
there's a gravitational pull towards the evil one that is keeping them in his or her grasp, you know?
Tim Doyle (18:57.16)
As you reflect back, you've said that you do believe that using drugs and alcohol really saved you at this point in your life. And it's almost like that short-term escape was the only path for you for a long-term future, even if you did have to pay the consequences. Do you see it like that?
MichAEL (19:07.32)
For sure.
MichAEL (19:18.892)
I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't change a thing. And I know that that sounds a little crazy and it probably hurts people that I hurt while I was in that phase and season of my life. But the truth is, is that I wouldn't be the guy I am today had I not gone through that. Or at least I think, you know, I mean, potentially, right? But I do believe that that path was truly paved for me.
I've also throughout that journey and even before that.
I have been and am a very spiritual human being. I have a relationship with a power greater than myself that I wouldn't be able to articulate clearly for someone to say, of course, that makes all the sense in the world. But I can absolutely tell you with conviction that I know left to my own devices, I would not be standing here in front of you today. No chance. I turned my life over.
N
MichAEL (20:31.38)
more than one way.
to a power greater than myself to help guide me. And I ask for help every single day from that source, every day. Don't miss it. Haven't missed it in over 20 years.
I don't care if people believe or not. I do not have a secular religion that I subscribe to, though I have zero problem with that. Chances are, if my wife was a bit more open to it, we would belong to a church.
But for me...
That journey has given me so much hope and faith and strength that
MichAEL (21:27.124)
I wouldn't change anything from the past because it's led me to that and also where I am right now.
Tim Doyle (21:35.23)
And you're saying that was there for you though, before you got into everything with drugs. And it's almost like the it's almost like the drugs brought that to the surface for you then as well.
MichAEL (21:44.847)
Yeah, well, so I come from my grandmother was a healer. That's what she did for her work. Yeah, she was a healer. She was a she was a crystal healer. She was a clairvoyant and she was a practicing Buddhist. And so when my sister and I were little kids, we would go to her apartment in Queens and my grandmother is hands down without a doubt the most influential person I've ever had in my life. I love her. I miss her. She was the
Tim Doyle (21:54.272)
interesting.
MichAEL (22:14.808)
kindest she was in my mind. She was she was like God as a human for me and she used to teach my sister and I about meditation and you know, Buddhist chanting and she had a crystal shop and that's how she survived. She had she she had a crystal shop. She would do crystal healing and she
always had told me from the day I can, you know, from the day one, she said, you know, as soon as you were born, she was there when I was born. She said, I looked into your eyes and I just knew that you were an old soul. You are an old soul. This is not your first time here. And I believe her because
You know, God has absolutely tested me in so many different ways and has given me the confidence and the freedom and the...
MichAEL (23:24.332)
the approval to step into discomfort on a regular basis.
discomfort for me is safe, strangely. But I just know that like, the more I sharpen the axe and put difficult things in my path,
MichAEL (23:52.906)
and have the ability to roll with the punches when they come out of nowhere and not lose my mind or flip out or turn tables upside down. The more I smirk and I kind of laugh and I say, this is right where I need to be. When I'm uncomfortable, I know I'm growing.
I just know it.
You know, I have two sons. And my wife is a self-proclaimed atheist. So it's really interesting that the two of us have, you know, have, she's, you know, we've been together 20 years. This year, next month we'll be 18 years married. In April was 20 years that her and I have been together. And it's pretty interesting that someone like me, who is like super
spiritual and someone like her who's like, nope, don't believe it. Don't try to convince me. I believe God put her in my path too. That's another challenge to navigate, right? But I've got these two sons and I love them like.
You know, I get there. It's beyond anything. Yeah, beyond anything I can I can I can, you clear, you know, articulate, right? They're just they are like part of me. They are part of me. And watching them, you know, my older son is he has anxiety. He is scared of things more than his younger brother. He's
Tim Doyle (25:23.709)
indescribable indescribable.
MichAEL (25:48.864)
He has a hard time sleeping. He is really scared when he thinks about something and, you know, at night. And I will say things like, buddy.
God is always going to protect you. And the way I know that is because God lives through me. God lives through you. I will never let anything happen to you. And so in my mind, that's God protecting you. And so just know that, you know, and my wife cannot stand that. She can't stand that that is something that I believe. I mean, she doesn't fight me over it.
She steps over me when I'm praying in the morning. She used to wake me up in the morning, because I used to work in the restaurant business, so I would get home super late. And I always say prayers before I go to bed. And I typically will say them on the floor of the bathroom. I say them in the morning on the floor of the bathroom, and then night on the floor in the bathroom. But I would be so tired after working 12-hour shift. I would come home, I'd get into prayer position on the floor of my bathroom, and I would just pass out.
And she would literally get up in the middle of the night to go take a piss and see me in her position sleeping on the floor of the bathroom. And she'd like, get up. So she just knew what she was getting into with me, right? I don't, don't scream from the Hilltops about this stuff. But when I'm on a podcast like this and I have an opportunity to really share this idea that like, I don't feel the pressure, like, I mean, I'll feel the pressure.
For sure, because life is really hard, especially when you're swinging, you know, and I come out swinging every day. But I don't feel the pressure in the sense that like, I feel supported in everything that I do, because I believe that, you know, the worst thing that can possibly happen, the worst thing that can possibly happen is the thing that happens to all of us.
MichAEL (28:01.762)
We get scared and then eventually we die. You know what mean? Like, what, what, what, what, it's not like something like totally unique is going to happen to me for taking massive risks or doing what I believe in. I'm either just going to get scared about an outcome or the outcome is going to be scary, but I'm going to get through it. And then eventually like everybody else, I'm going to die. So.
If fear is the worst case scenario, the worst possible case scenario, an intense level of fear because something didn't work.
I'm okay. I'm okay. I got, you know, I got faith that I'm just gonna pick it back up and try something new. Like literally, that is the worst case scenario, right? Fear.
Tim Doyle (28:56.414)
Yeah, I find that really fascinating about the relationship between you and your wife and how you're very spiritual and faith-based and she's not. And I think faith is the greatest gift that you can give your child. And I'm speaking not as the father in this case, but as the child, because I don't have any children, but you know, my parents, especially my father is very faith-based and spiritual.
And I would not have had that in my life if I wasn't introduced to it at a young age from my parents. And I think that's a thing that, yes, you can find it on your own, but if you have it, if it's given to you by somebody who's older than you, especially at a young age, it just like not getting into a neurological standpoint here as well. But like when you're able to have that in your mind and your brain at like such a developmental age, I think it can like really, really.
MichAEL (29:54.689)
That is
the time where we set up all of our systems for life between zero and seven. It's when our nervous system connects to our subconscious and experiences are stored and it really does create neural pathways to either propel us or prevent us. And I know that
because I had a lot of them as a young child that prevented me. And I have spent the last 20 years unraveling a lot of those neural pathways that were set at that very young age. So my goal as a father is to set up the best possible neural pathways for my sons, set up the strongest
nervous system for them. And I know that everybody has their own journey and everybody has their own path. And the truth is that I don't have a blueprint. I didn't have one coming into fatherhood. But I have faith, you know, and like my grandmother gave that to me. And that
Tim Doyle (31:22.366)
Hmm.
MichAEL (31:25.992)
is the difference between my story being successful and living life in the box of fear.
Tim Doyle (31:39.84)
I absolutely love that. And I think that's such a cool goal. I've never heard that said before, like I'm trying to build a strong nervous system for my kids. That's a really cool framing of it. You talked about earlier, you mentioned you were big in the restaurant world and you got taking things back to your childhood. You got into the restaurant world at a young age at 12 years old. You became a delivery boy at a vegan restaurant in New York city called Candle Cafe.
then you became a prep cook and went on the floor there and you felt like restaurants, that was the first environment where you could really be who you were and it felt true to who you were and authentic. So even with that early sense of belonging, now in an environment, very productive around a lot of good work, what do you think kept pulling you back to the world of drugs or why couldn't you have just gotten deeper into the restaurant?
MichAEL (32:37.612)
Well, unfortunately, the restaurant world is riddled with substance abuse issues. A lot of people that end up working in restaurants just end up there. It's not their goal. And for me as a kid, it was the first place that would truly hire me. And so I wanted to work very young. So that's how I got there. And I found out that it was a place for me.
that I could almost be anybody I wanted to be. I was always the youngest. I always got attention because of that. And I learned early on, like I alluded to earlier, that all I had to do was make people like me in order to get what I wanted or get safety. And so by the time I...
started working in restaurants, had been working that skill for like six years. And I was able to really put it into practice in the restaurant business as a kid because
You know, I was around older people and they were, they wanted me to help them. They wanted my service, whether they, they thought about that logically or not. That's what they came into the restaurant for. They came into the restaurant to be served and it was perfect for me because if I was, if I walked over to a table and looked at everybody there and
kind of played a game in my head and this is I used to do and I got better and better and better at it as I got, as I was working in the business. I would read everybody at the table and say, okay, how am going to conduct with these people? What am I going to do to make them like me? What, how am I going to, how am I going to win this situation? And that gave me, you know, real confidence walking into my life.
MichAEL (34:42.766)
Even though drugs became a big part of it, and by the way, even though was a drug addict and alcoholic, I got very, very good at selling drugs. And I was a booze salesman. I was working in the restaurant. the substances that I was partaking in personally, I was also very, very good at distributing. And so,
Now I had my whole high school. I was working in the restaurant and I loved it. I had my whole high school knocking on my door because I was just good at what I did that way. And again, that's just that entrepreneurial spirit that was just like in me that I just couldn't help. And I got super good. And so...
You know, I think the reason why I just, you know, I got into the drugs is because why I continue to walk down that dark path.
was because I really was afraid of...
MichAEL (35:56.3)
my experiences. didn't, I don't think I was ready to look at some of the stuff that was going on in my house. You know, I mean, my, was a very dysfunctional home and, on both my mother and for my, my, father was obviously very abusive and made my life really difficult. But my mother,
was also abused by my father. And I've never said this on a podcast before, but I think I just have to say it. My mother had an affair on my father for 25 years that I knew about. And it killed me. Just killed me because I felt like my mother had abandoned me for this person when I was getting truly abused by my father. And
There was a moment at 15 years old where it got really bad and my father and I were at this point, I had become a tough kid. I got into a lot of fights and my dad was no longer just kind of hitting me anymore. it would just, the second I felt something come on, it was on. Like we were physically at each other. And child services got involved and they basically at 15 years old,
threatened to just put me in foster care because my sister and I were still sharing a bedroom. We'd live in a very tight-quartered apartment. My father became a hoarder, so it was really uncomfortable in the apartment. was shit everywhere. I it wasn't like garbage, but it was just like piles of things everywhere. And they would come into that apartment and they'd be like, can't even, you know, you can't even move around. Like these kids share a bedroom. You guys are fist fighting all the time. Like this is insane.
you know, they looked at my mother and they said, you got to either take the kid out of here, or you got to divorce him and get or you guys got to get out of here or he's got to get out of here. But that one of those two things is can happen because now, you know, because they've been they were involved for a couple of years, they're like, we're, we're, we're obligated to say to protect that child. And my mother, you know, I was like, I'm not going into foster care.
MichAEL (38:21.556)
something's gotta, you know, either we gotta go or he's gotta go, whatever, but like, and she was terrified that he was gonna kill her. In her mind. That's what she thought. That he was gonna, cause he had threatened that. I had seen witnessed stuff like that. And so she, she don't want, she was afraid to leave, you know? And I, that was that. I left. I moved out of my parents' house at 15.
So there was a lot of dysfunction and I don't think that I was in a I was in a mentally prepared enough state to understand what was happening, to want to understand what was happening. All I knew was it wasn't safe and I was safer on the street. No, nothing bad happened to me outside of drug abuse, but nothing bad happened to me that scared me like my father scared me on the street. I could handle myself.
Tim Doyle (39:05.013)
Mm.
MichAEL (39:17.848)
if I had to. And when I was at home, it was like fire to my soul, you know. And so I think that's why. And then once you get into the groove of, you know, not wanting to feel at all, it's hard to break that.
Tim Doyle (39:42.676)
The intensity of everything that you're going through and your relationship with drugs and alcohol really comes to a head in August 2004. Walk me through how everything unfolded there in that pivotal month of your journey.
MichAEL (40:01.4)
Like I had mentioned, it wasn't, it was no longer about partying. It was about self-hatred and dependency and reliance. And the reliance was, I don't want to feel.
The dependency was, don't want to experience life.
And the self-hatred was a direct reflection of those two things, basically. And so my addiction had graduated to heroin at that point, pills and heroin. I was still doing everything else and drinking and using cocaine and smoking cocaine. But really it kind of graduated more towards the heroin because I just got sick and tired of staying up all the time. And it was July of 2004.
Probably the third week of July, 2004, I was at this apartment with this girl and her and I were using heroin together. And I remember sticking a straw into a bag of heroin and just snorting the whole bag. And that wasn't like something that I was not used to doing. What we had been using for, you know, probably three days straight. And it was just around the clock.
and there was a mirror on the headboard of the bed. I was sitting on the edge of the bed naked. And I did that. I looked to my right and I caught a glimpse of myself in the headboard of the, you know, the mirror. And I was white like paper from my forehead to my toes. I saw that in the mirror. I had never seen that before. My whole body had all the color had just completely drawn out of my body. And I knew.
MichAEL (41:49.718)
at that moment that I was gonna die. I just knew that that was that. Because my body looked lifeless. I looked like a ghost, like a zombie. And it scared the daylights out of me. So I tried to stand up immediately and then that was it, it out. I just hit the deck. And I remember coming in and out of consciousness a bit. I remember trying to say call an ambulance. She was terrified. She didn't wanna call an ambulance. So she...
got me into the bathroom and somehow put me on my back on the floor of the shower and then just turned the cold water on. And I remember the cold water hitting me in my chest and my face and kind of coming in and out. And, you know, I knew I had died because I remember saying, this is it, and to myself, you're gone.
And then I guess God showed up and saved me. Just said, you know, I don't recollect having this conversation with God, but I just can only imagine that there was probably a, you know, God had a different plan for me and didn't want me to die then. Probably saw this conversation.
and said, hey, this guy was meant to have this kind of conversation, not the conversation that people would talk about him dying on the floor of a bathroom. And so I came out of it. And unfortunately, that wasn't the end of the story. But I came out of it. I remember about three, four hours later leaving that apartment. was so hot in New York City that summer and it was still daytime. It was probably five o'clock in the afternoon. I was walking west on 13th Street.
And I swore to God that I would not use again. said, Mike, you just died. You cannot live that, like, how could you let it get this far down? Like, how could you do that? And I swore that I wouldn't. And then four hours later, I just couldn't, I just found myself back in same place. Couldn't stop. I just, and I didn't know how I got there. I just knew that I was there and I,
MichAEL (44:13.708)
And I kind of just at that point conceded to dying this way. But I do remember saying like, you know, well, if this is going to be it, man, let's make it happen fast. Like, let's just go hard and just like really. And so I didn't overdose again over the next two weeks, but it got to a point where on August 1st, I had been up for a few days.
and I walked into my apartment and it was eight o'clock in the morning. I still had more drugs to use and alcohol to drink. And I caught a glimpse of myself in the mirror again. And I looked in the mirror, it was like a wall mirror behind my door. And I was, I was the walking dead. And I looked at my eyes in the mirror.
And I don't remember if I had ever done that before. I can't remember if that was ever something that I had done to that point in my life. But I looked at myself in the eyes and I said, you are jump out the window. You're you are just useless. You're despicable. You hate yourself so much. Can't get out of your own way. Just do it. Just so. And I lived on the sixth floor.
And I blacked out. And that was God coming in again and just saying, no, I'm not going to let you do it. You've to be able to tell your story. And I woke up 16 hours later and I felt this for the first time in a long time, really this desire to want to stop.
Tim Doyle (45:58.869)
Hmm.
MichAEL (46:11.33)
wanna get out of this.
chamber of pain that I was in that I knew I had self-inflicted. And my boss fired me from my job because I had slept through work. He mentioned getting sober to me. He said, dude, if you know, I begged for my job because it was the only thing left that I had that was like really kind of tying me to life. And he said, man, I can't watch you die, Mike. Everybody loves you, but we all know what's going on.
and like you're on the edge of death and I cannot allow that to happen on my watch. You gotta get sober. And I just heard it, man. I heard it. Everybody wanted me to get sober. Everybody said you gotta get sober. The whole world, everybody that knew me, people, you know, just knew. And he was the one that kind of just like, I don't know, something about him, something about whatever God was working through him, you know.
And that was when I...
Made the call and I called a friend who I knew was sober. She was the only person who I knew was really sober and she called her boyfriend. Her boyfriend I had never met, but he came almost immediately and saved my life. Straight up. The guy came in and just showed me that I didn't have to live the way I was living.
MichAEL (47:42.944)
and showed me a much better way to live, which is basically how I live today. The plan that he laid out for me is kind of the same plan I live by today. And my life changed.
Tim Doyle (47:58.112)
Recovery is this all-encompassing term that obviously encapsulates what you were working towards, but it's not like you necessarily had the conscious awareness of what recovery is what you were trying to get. And what I mean by that is you were just trying to have a routine and system in place that could help you in the way that you were living. How important was that system-based mindset for you?
MichAEL (48:26.262)
I had no idea that it required a system or a routine at that time. I just knew that I did not want to live this way anymore. And I knew that there were sober people.
and I could somehow, someway be one of them. Especially when this guy Marcus showed up because he was a cool dude. You know, when I first made the decision and I had obviously thought about it in the past. mean, I was in rehab, you know, when I was 16, outpatient rehab.
But I wasn't ready. When I saw him, this guy, this tough dude covered in tattoos, talking to me about God, talking to me about fitness, talking to me about Muay Thai kickboxing, and literally didn't say a word for almost four hours while I told him my whole story, listened to me and then said, I'm gonna help you. After four hours of just sitting there listening to me. And I was like, okay, maybe there is something that I'm missing here.
So he gave me this idea of structure and routine and ritual and habit and discipline. He gave it to me, that guy. I wanted to impress him. I wanted, and I do think that that is a necessary requirement for people that are struggling with addiction.
to find someone that they want to impress, that they want to give them an attaboy, hat on the back.
MichAEL (50:09.856)
You don't know what it means to want to do something for yourself at that stage. You just don't understand what that means because you doing something for yourself for God knows how many years prior to that very moment has been getting high or drinking. So finding someone that you want to impress, that you want to get a pat on the back from is very important.
And that's why there's recovery communities and sober communities, because you get into a room of people that are all, that all know exactly what you're going through, but have turned their lives around. And you walk into these meetings and there's people laughing and, you know, having a good time and hugging each other and, you know, sharing about their life. And it's inspiring. Cause you just don't believe that you have that ability.
And at that point, really, I was deep in the world of darkness and crime. I mean, sounds so weird for me to say, but I was a criminal. I wasn't hurting people in a physical way outside of it. I got into a lot of fights probably because of the way I carried myself. But I wasn't committing violent crime. But I was definitely...
not living life on the right side of the tracks when it came to like being legitimate. And
When I met that guy, he showed me that if I replaced my bad habits with good ones, I could change everything.
Tim Doyle (51:55.434)
And what I do find really interesting, and this is my perception of seeing things is that the mindset was actually very similar, it seems like to when you were using drugs and alcohol is because like you were fixated on the short term and just trying to survive and escape by using drugs and alcohol. And it's like almost in the same way you were doing it now, but just with inputs that were hopefully going to yield a better longterm for you rather than.
MichAEL (52:20.046)
Okay.
Tim Doyle (52:25.15)
long-term consequences. Like you were still focused on like, I'm just trying to survive and this is hopefully going to lead to a better long-term for me. Was there a point ever when you got weighed down by a thought of like, man, I've done some like speaking strictly about your physical body, like, man, like I've done some real damage to my body. And if so, how did you work through those thoughts?
MichAEL (52:55.712)
Well, I think the way that manifested for me in the early days was not. I didn't think that I wasn't so concerned about like my vital organs or like things like that. Really where it manifested for me was.
I thought I was convinced that I had like HIV, totally convinced and terrified to go get any kind of STD HIV test. Terrified. That's how it came. That's how it manifested for me until I finally had, you know, another kind of mentor in recovery. It was like, look, dude, we're going to the clinic. We're going today, right after this meeting.
You and me, we're walking over there. We're gonna get it done. And whatever the outcome is, we're gonna deal with, but we're gonna go get it done because you need to relieve yourself of this pain, this fear. And we did. And luckily I was all good. I had no STDs and I didn't have HIV, but I was totally convinced that I did, 100%. And the beauty of meeting Marcus and what he gave to me was...
this idea that if I was able to focus on my nutrition and my fitness and become disciplined there.
every day.
MichAEL (54:25.066)
I had, there was nothing that could stop me in applying that to every other area of my life. At the same time, I'm abstaining from drugs and alcohol. So I'm abstaining from drugs and alcohol and I am including fitness and nutrition into my life. So now in my mind, I'm retraining and rewiring these neural pathways that say I can't do this, right?
I've stopped doing the thing that I've been doing for the last 11 years that had me by the balls. And I started doing something that was really, really hard that I had not done since I was 12 years, you know, whatever. I was an athlete as a young kid. So now I know, hey, I could stop doing this and I could start doing this. Both are unbelievably hard at the same time I can do that. And that was the beginning of me rewiring my message, which is better habits, better life.
You replace the bad ones for the good ones. You don't just stop doing the thing that you don't want to do anymore. That's like short-lived. And people will sort of, you know, tell me, you're just replacing habits. And I'm like, yes. Yes, you could talk shit about that all day. I don't care what you say. You could tell me that I'm addicted to fitness, that I'm addicted to eating healthy, that I take too many supplements. Like, go for it. Whatever.
Whatever you want to say about that, go for it. I could care less. I would much rather be totally obsessed with my fitness, my health, my nutrition, my mindfulness than smoke and crack. I just, that's just it. And I had a double board certified neurologist and addiction specialist on my podcast a few months ago. And this guy is one of the few double board certified, if,
I don't know how many there are, but not many neurologists and addiction specialists, and very clearly stated on the podcast that there have been a number of human clinical studies that prove that the brain of an addict is different than the brain of a non-addict. And it has all to do with my lipid system and all to do with my dopamine response and my lipid system.
MichAEL (56:49.72)
fires off dopamine at 10 times what someone who's not an addict, you know, has their dopamine response. And so I have this thing. And that is why I have been able to succeed in all the positive areas in my life, because I attack those things the same way I used to attack getting high and drinking. Because now those things,
fitness, family, nutrition, business, the things that really are awesome in life, give me the same response as the drugs did. And that's why you see a lot of like unbelievably successful former addicts in business and in sport. You know, there's, there's, it's not a surprise that, you know, like leaders in industry across the spectrum.
are recovering addicts, right? Matt Frazier.
most fittest man ever to exist, recovering addicts. Tons of ultra athletes, tons, tons, recovering addicts. Some of the greatest CEOs, some of the greatest actors, some of the greatest business people in the world, recovering addicts. And so my message is specifically for people that struggle because
All I wanna do every single day is like be able to impact one person that's struggling to believe that what they're doing is not the only way. Because life on the other side is like, I mean, it doesn't come without its hardship, of course. I can't just like have a really hard day at work and go home and just sip on a whiskey to take the edge off.
MichAEL (58:54.092)
I deal with life on life's terms and I face it right in the fucking eyes every single day. But I also feel...
Like when it's good, mean, boy do I feel that. I am super sensitive to that. My body, my mind, my soul. When things are going well, man, it's wonderful. And there's no added sugar, you know?
Tim Doyle (59:25.226)
think that gets deeper into that relationship with consumption and creation. And it's like you were heavy in your life. The world of addiction was consumption based and now it almost seems like you're still addicted, but now you're addicted to things that are very creative based and a release of something rather than always taking in. And the one word that I think describes your journey so well.
And you talked about it, right there as well is alchemy where it's like,
The same skills, same mindsets, same ethics when it came to when you were taking drugs and that part of your life, it's still all the same stuff, but now it's just alchemized into things that are working for you rather than working against you. And when you got deeper into your entrepreneurial journey, did you have that conscious awareness, especially when starting Meatball Shop of like, okay, in a way,
MichAEL (01:00:02.03)
And students know that setting the bar is that it's a family thing. And that makes it very, difficult.
Tim Doyle (01:00:30.784)
I still have that same hustle of selling drugs, but now I'm just bringing it to the world of food.
MichAEL (01:00:39.452)
I think that, you know, I had it before using drugs.
It just was, it's part, it's who I am. I think that I've just been kind of gifted with the desire to want to make do and create things. And, you know, I could tell you right now, people used to ask me before opening up Meatball Shop, aren't you scared to like just take the leap? Cause I had a great job, man. I mean, I had a job, I was working four nights a week.
I was making anywhere from two to 3000 bucks cash. You know, I had all of my days off, like daytime between, you know, morning and 5pm off. was making like 150 grand a year cash. And I was young, 20, you know, 26 or whatever it was, 27. And people would say to me like, hey, are you, are you scared to do it? And there was not an
of fear. as a matter of fact, I just couldn't wait. I was so excited. I was just so ready and so excited to do it. And, you know, look, there's definitely...
As I evolve as a human and an entrepreneur and a husband and father, there's a few words that I believe resonate most with me in my journey and success. And the one that stands out the most is discipline. Because I think discipline, the beauty of discipline,
MichAEL (01:02:29.864)
is that it's not God-given.
Right? Discipline is earned. And that means that everybody can have it. Anyone and everyone can have it. Discipline. Patience comes next. Right? Because once you become disciplined in...
your life or in a specific genre of your life. It's not like all of a sudden the world, you know, the doors are going to open and like everything's going to just happen, right? It's just patience is what it takes. No one, I don't care what anyone says. No one gets rich quick. No one gets a six pack overnight. No one begins to, no one just like intuitively wants to eat, you know, chicken and vegetables.
every single day for lunch, you know, it takes time to build these things, right, where it becomes what you, who you are. So patience is something that I believe to be just a requirement for anyone looking to, you know, excel and have stories to tell of success when they're 85 years old. And then the last piece, which I think is
MichAEL (01:03:55.81)
Endurance. Endurance is, is,
You know, even if you don't have discipline, you don't have patience, if you have endurance.
the odds work in your favor because most people quit. When it gets really hard,
when you get pushed into a corner and you feel like the walls are caving in.
MichAEL (01:04:31.566)
95 % of people.
MichAEL (01:04:36.44)
kick into fight or flight, and run for the hills.
MichAEL (01:04:43.54)
And if you can, know, in the world of recovery, we talk about obsession is the precursor to craving. You don't all of a sudden crave something. You're obsessing over it. And then once you've given to the obsession, that is when craving comes in and just destroys you.
But if you can get through the obsessive piece, if you can get through those moments where it just shows up and you can't, and you're fixated on it, you want it bad, you know it's something that is going to potentially take you out of this moment, but you just smile at it and you're like, not this time, not this time. And so in all the other sort of components of my life where
You know, I run a company called Creatures of Habit. It's a consumer packaged goods business that requires a lot of capital like most businesses do. You know how many times I thought I was going to go out of business? Where I thought the money was just, that was it. I spent 17 months straight calling every single human being I knew to raise money.
And I just said every single day, yo dude, we're gonna lift up rocks today. We're just gonna lift up rocks. And you know what? Let's fucking gun for the nos. Let's gun for the nos. Because the more nos you get, the closer you are to a yes. Let's get those nos. Let's get them. Let's get them out of the way. Let them say no. Let them say no. The closer you get to the yes, I mean, the more nos you get, the closer you are to the yes.
And I just had to, and then I just played the tape. Dude, all you gotta do is get through the obsession part. Like that's all you gotta do. Just get through the obsession. It's okay. Like you are gonna get through this. Most people quit. Most people throw in the towel, hey, good run. Not gonna, I am the kind of guy that will die on the hill. I will die on the hill. That's where, that is.
MichAEL (01:07:06.412)
And I think that's why people have invested in me. Because, you know, I'm not the smartest guy. Definitely not. I'm not the smartest guy at the table. Don't ask me to build model spreadsheets for you. Like, I'm not that guy. I'm good. I'm good at surrounding myself with those people. But my gosh, like, no. Not me. But I will be the last man standing and die on the hill. I just will, you know.
Tim Doyle (01:07:33.908)
The cool thing about that though is at that core of that is going all the way back to that young kid in elementary school, you know, at his friend's houses and thinking like, how do I get these parents to like me or how do I get this table at the restaurant to like me? And that's continued to develop for you now and to, okay, now I'm an entrepreneur and that it's still that same mindset that neural wiring is still there of, all right, now it's how do I get people to
invested me. How do I get people to like my business? And a cool story about that, I think is, so when you first got introduced to Lance Armstrong, and it wasn't even in person, just a call, and you're talking about creatures of habit. And after you guys get off the call, Lance goes to his team, you know, never investing in oatmeal before not an oatmeal guy, and just says to his team, like, I ain't getting you know, I'm not betting against that.
How does that make you feel that you have the energy that you're very in tune on an emotional level, EQ level, following your intuition? How does it make you feel that you have that energy that also has people tapping into those parts of themselves where they're not going to be just very IQ based, logic based, but a guy like Lance Armstrong is, man, that guy just has an energy and I'm tapping into my emotion and yeah, I'm going to bet on.
MichAEL (01:09:06.22)
How does that make me feel? This is one of the areas that I still have yet to unravel. And I'm well aware of this. But I have a very difficult time.
believing when people say things like that to me. I'm grateful for it. I appreciate it. But it's not like I can take a conversation that I have with Lance where he actually says that to me. mean, now he's become a good friend, but he still reminds me of that. And I think he does it purposefully because he probably sees that I struggle with this area in my life.
I just have a hard time believing when people say that to me. It's said, and I'm not saying this to tout myself or to pat my own self on the back, but you know, people tell me every day that I've impacted their lives. And.
I'm so grateful for that.
And I hope to gosh, one day I'm able to really absorb it and not to explode my ego, but to feel that kind of accomplishment. I have definitely felt accomplished in my life. I a long way to go. I mean, I'm 44. I feel like I'm 34 at the oldest.
MichAEL (01:10:39.906)
And I know I've got at least 40 years of building in business and in family ahead of me. So I'm hoping that there's a point where I'm like, gosh, they're okay. Right, dude, you are. You are what they tell you you are. But I'm not there yet. And I'm okay with that, too. You know, like I love, you know.
I'll tell you something. I just wrote, I write an email to the creatures that have a community every week. And I've done it without fail every single week for the last 162 weeks. And those emails are page to a page and a half. And it's just me talking about things that are going on in my life and sharing my experiences and hoping, like I said, that I can impact one person, especially someone that's struggling.
whether it's with addiction or depression or anxiety or whatever, to just have some clarity on this idea that there could be another way. So I've made it my mission to get that out every single week and it's going to be my book. So not only am I writing an email to all these people, but I'm actually capturing just a ton of content that will ultimately become my book when it hits 300 weeks.
Last week, I wrote about self-investment and how important self-investment is and how when it comes to self-investment, and I'm not talking about material, I'm talking about therapy, a course, a retreat, maybe bodywork, physical therapy if you have an injury, things like that. We are so reluctant to want to invest that way.
because the money always seems so much more expensive than it is, right? Because a $3,000 investment into a retreat or a, you know, four month therapy journey is going to make so much more of an impact than a $3,000 investment in, you know, a three month car payment. You know what saying?
Tim Doyle (01:13:06.122)
Yeah.
MichAEL (01:13:07.68)
Like, you pay $3,000 a month for your rent and sometimes you think about it and it sucks, but you cannot compare spending $3,000 a month on your rent to a $3,000 investment in something that is going to expand your existence. And it's so interesting to me and I am, and I share all transparency like on the fucking table.
Like I, whenever it comes to things like that for me, I'm always like, I don't need to, I'm not, know, it's too expensive. I'm not going to do that. And so this year I've sort of totally defied that way of thinking. And I'm going on a, in a couple of weeks, I'm going with myself and my breathwork coach and we're going to the top of a mountain in Vermont, the two of us.
to do a very intensive breakthrough session where it's just gonna be he and I, and it's gonna be a lot of breath work, and it's gonna be a lot of emotional work, and it's gonna be a lot of healing work. And it was not cheap to fly him here, to get the cabin at the top of the mountain, to set that whole thing up.
But in my mind, that investment is going to unravel more of these things that hinder my ability.
to experience life for all it's worth. If we're not investing in ourselves, in my opinion, it's the biggest mistake we're making because we have no problem. Like we can look at a, you know, not for all of us, but for probably a great deal of us. Like we could look at like a private jet or like a Ferrari or like the new G-Wagon.
MichAEL (01:15:10.798)
and be like, oh my God, I want that. Like I'm gunning for that. That's what I need. That is what I'm coming for. The new iPhone came out, it's $1,200, done. Purchase, you know? But when it comes to like, oh man, you know, this great therapist that my friend has that, you know, recommended that that has totally changed his or her life, you know, costs 250 bucks an hour, but man, like, nope, not gonna do that.
That doesn't really, that's not gonna bring me that, you know. And so I've made it my job to invest in myself this year. And so I'm doing that. I'm actually hosting a retreat, which I'm really excited about. I'm hosting a men's retreat in June for 15 to 20 men on my property. we're, you know, this is me trying to connect with, you know, I've got a decent, you know,
community of people that have been following me for a long time. And they know that I'm into a lot of woo woo stuff, but I potentially don't present myself that way. But that is the truth. And so, and I know that that stuff, you know, specifically breath work for me, I mean, there's, there's obviously the plant medicine journey that a lot of people have been talking a lot about, which I don't partake in, no judgment, but I just am afraid, you know, with my history, like, who knows where that would take me.
So I have found.
the most powerful, the most groundbreaking tree shaking experiences therapeutically through the breath. Breath work has been very, very powerful for me. And so I wanna share that. I wanna share that with men that, you know, it's not about men that are lost or struggling or whatever. It's about just expanding. It's like, want people that are struggling to show up to this thing.
MichAEL (01:17:10.592)
I also want people that are absolutely thriving. Because if you look at my life, most people would say that I'm thriving. And I believe that I am thriving. Yet I'm still digging. I walk around with a shovel. Like I am constantly like, like let me dig deeper. Let me peel back the onion more. wanna unlearn some of the stuff from my past.
and learn more of what life has to offer. Let me dig. Let's all dig.
Tim Doyle (01:17:46.752)
You also have no idea like the abundance that can come into your life from doing those types of things before you actually do it. Like I paid a couple thousand dollars this past fall to do a retreat and going into it. I'm like, hmm, a couple thousand dollars. And then afterwards I'm like, I probably would have paid $10,000 for that.
MichAEL (01:18:07.222)
All day, all day. You should come to the men's retreat, It's gonna be incredible. It's gonna be really incredible.
Tim Doyle (01:18:12.486)
set set seven of the details I would love to. The interesting thing that you mentioned earlier when you're talking about going to Vermont on top of the mountain and you said it's going to be a lot of healing work and I find that really interesting. So you're obviously deep into the space of recovery and you say, I'm in recovery, but then you're doing healing work and I think there is a lot of nuance nuance in that.
relationship between recovery and healing. So for me personally, um, you know, I never struggled with addiction. I don't know anybody super close to me who's struggled with addiction when it's come to drugs and alcohol. So I haven't had a, uh, up close view of it. The world that I come from is I dealt with a lot of chronic pain and I went through
the conventional medical system and it really didn't help me at all. And the focus was always on recovery and then took a more holistic approach. And the language that was always used was healing. Like you need to heal from this. And I'm like, that's like really interesting. The language between these two different types of models is very different. And those two words recovery and healing, that was the main difference. And I was like, what is the difference here? And for me,
And when you look it up in the dictionary, recovery means like returning to your normal past state before whatever type of challenge or, you know, setback that you went through and healing. The definition that I've created for myself is, okay, I'm not trying to return actually to who I was before this happened. I'm trying to use this thing to grow into my highest self because it's like, I'm not trying to eliminate my experiences. Like for you, like you said, I wouldn't have changed a thing.
You know, I'm not going eliminate these difficult things that I've gone through, especially my relationship with drugs and alcohol. And I think the language that we use has a profound impact on our mental wellbeing, but also on our physical wellbeing and our physical health. So two part question for you, what do you see is the difference for you between recovery and healing? And do you think either within the world of addiction and recovery,
Tim Doyle (01:20:37.482)
Do you think that word recovery has some limitations?
MichAEL (01:20:44.242)
Recovery is a...
Recovery, guess, in my world is...
MichAEL (01:20:58.956)
It's more of a state of mind than it is coming back to what I was before substance abuse became a part of my life. It's really, it's really a state of mind, which is that of
MichAEL (01:21:21.43)
I am very well aware that I have a predisposition and I am prone to want to abuse a substance that takes me out of myself, out of the state of mind that I am way happier living in.
MichAEL (01:21:45.26)
And the recovery piece is accepting that.
and finding other ways to cope with my life that do not involve.
abuse of substance. So that is kind of the way I, you know, and I haven't ever been asked that question. But if I, know, and that this is sort of like a shooting from the hip answer, but I do believe that that kind of sums it up for me. It's a it's a state of mind. And it's a, it is a, it is the sort of the category that one would put me in to describe how I walk through life as a
you know, someone in recovery. Healing is a daily reprieve, as far as I'm concerned.
There will be people, like I shared this men's retreat that I was just talking to you about with a guy that I thought would potentially be a, you know, a candidate who would be interested in it. And he responded back to me, that's not for me. I don't, I don't, I don't need any of that stuff. That's not, you know, I'm, I'm good. I'm, I'm, I'm, don't, I'm content with all, you know, with my life and
MichAEL (01:23:09.742)
I was like, okay, man, that's awesome. You know what I'm saying? Like, congratulations, you've made it to the promised land. You know what I mean? Like you don't need any, no work, no more work, which is, man, and I'm not judging him. I'm like, all right, dude, like, man, it's inspiring, you know? Like for me, healing is...
MichAEL (01:23:35.51)
So I think that the mind-body connection
is far more potent than we think about on a regular basis. There's a lot more knowledge now, scientific knowledge, on the mind-body connection than ever before.
Tim Doyle (01:23:59.84)
That's what helped me healed from chronic pain, understanding the mind body connection. That's what got me out of pain.
MichAEL (01:24:03.67)
Yeah, so I think the message there is, and the healing component for me is, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier. My subconscious and my nervous system has been wired to experience life.
in a premature way, right? Because a lot of those imprints were tasked as a child. And that is when my fight or flight was like developed, right? Something shows up that presents a threat. My nervous system starts spitting out cortisol and I go into fight or flight.
And it impacts my heart rate. It impacts my ability to, to breathe normally. I begin to sweat, my adrenaline kicks up and that is not healthy on the whole system, the whole body system. So you can only imagine that, like, if there were a lot of things that inspired that as a young Eddie, as a young kid, you could spend way more of your life in that sort of.
like unregulated nervous system state than regulated, and it begins to break down your systems. And so, you know, some people obviously have to heal more than others, right? I had a very traumatic experience as a young kid. So my nervous system was sort of wired to just like think everything potentially, or a lot of things was a threat. And it brought, you know, a lot of...
and I dealt with chronic pain, Lyme disease, all sorts of lower back, know, just lots of stuff. And it's, and I believe now, and the more I research and the more I learn about the sort of mind-body connection, the more I begin to understand that, like, I need to get back, not necessarily harp on those things and victimize and, you know, be a victim, but like, just get in there and sort of start to rewire that.
MichAEL (01:26:26.356)
subconscious belief. You know, we experience pain based on limited belief system. Right? Like, it's not real, our thoughts, our thoughts can propel us for sure. And as a matter of fact, I think, you know, people have or let me reframe that. When I would hear about a manifestation meditation,
I used to kind of say to myself, I mean, you know, like, I'm gonna just think about it and it's gonna happen. And so I started manifesting in my meditations and I don't do it all the time, but you know, and I built this whole entire thing in this manifestation. And then when I began to realize is that like everything in my life has been a manifestation, my marriage, my businesses, I came up with an idea, I started thinking about it, I put pen to paper and poof, I did it. I turned it into a f-
full on thing. It is real. It's very real. It is very real. Like, we are so
Like we are cultivated to in this country, in this sort of cultural climate that
MichAEL (01:27:53.079)
If it's not tangible...
Tim Doyle (01:27:56.02)
Yeah.
MichAEL (01:27:56.694)
It's not real. And I know from my experience in life.
MichAEL (01:28:06.304)
You think about something that you want.
and you begin talking about it as if you're gonna do it. And you start taking actions towards doing it. And those actions begin to stack up.
And then that stack becomes a boulder, that boulder becomes a fucking mountain. And then that mountain is there for you to climb. It works, man. I'm here to say, like, and so.
You know, I do think that limited belief is a catalyst to a lot of pain and hurdle and roadblock in our lives. And so the healing, this is a very long-winded way of answering your question. For me, healing is probably going to be lifelong, right? Like I'm always gonna wanna continue to heal and...
It's, you know, recovery is an existence. Healing is an action, I guess is what, how I would sum it up. Recovery is where I, how I walk through life and healing for me is just, let's continue to dig.
Tim Doyle (01:29:25.118)
I love that. And there's not a one size fits all answer that everyone has their own nuanced definition because we all have our own experiences of how we relate to those words. And you're an incredibly open person about your story and you bring so much transparency to everything that you've experienced and it's truly commendable. And I think the cool thing about podcasting is that it's timeless. Like you've done a lot of podcasts.
And you've mentioned earlier, you have two young sons. And when I hear that, I'm like, what an incredible gift for those two little kids who one day they'll be able to look back and see how their dad, you know, used to live and think and act. And not that they can't do that now, but just when they continue to grow, they'll have a greater appreciation for it. With that being said on the podcast, so.
As your sons do continue to grow, have you thought about how you'll have conversations with them about your life and everything you've experienced?
MichAEL (01:30:36.684)
Hmm, that's great question. And you know, I'm so happy you said that, because I just got emotional thinking about being able to
hoping that one day they'll be interested in going back into the archives and listening to their dad on podcasts, talking about them and challenges and discomfort and how I've managed to deal with it and the tools that I've used and implemented to help me in really tough times. I I never thought about that. never thought about, it's interesting as a father,
MichAEL (01:31:21.954)
you don't have control over how your children receive life. You have control over what you do, but you have zero control over how they receive it. And so sometimes as a dad, you can feel, and as a parent, know, I'm sure all parents feel this way to some level, but I do think fathers feel it differently than mothers because mothers tend to be the nurturing, like,
children, my children, when they want nurturing, they run to their mom. And it's not that I don't want to give the nurture them and I'm able to do that, but they spent nine months in her stomach. She is the womb. She is the one that is the, she is comfort. She is comfort for them, for sure. And sometimes I could feel like, man, man, I cannot connect to this dude.
want him so bad to just connect with me. But you know, he's not ready. He's two, he's seven or 10, you know, and so often, often I'm talking about multiple times a week out of the blue. I will say, Hey, Finn, and he'll say, yeah. And I'll say, I love you with all my heart, Just know that I love you so much. I just want you to know that, you know, and
that for me is so important because these conversations I cannot broach with my sons yet. But if they know through my words and through my actions that I love them unconditionally and I will support them in anything they do. mean, every night that I put my sons to bed, we have this
ritual that we do. And it goes into values that I want them to have. They probably don't understand them. Even, mean, we've been doing it since they're born. So they know all of, they know this by heart. But I also say, hey boys, you know, you guys can do anything you want to do. You guys, you know, you can be anything you want to be when you grow up and your dad is going to support you. As long as you do it for yourself and nobody else. And I say, what is it going to take?
MichAEL (01:33:47.244)
And they say courage and I say, is courage? And they say being afraid and doing it anyway, as long as it's for the good. And so I'm planting these seeds in my son's. Mines at a young age. The exact opposite of what I got did not get any of that. And I am. Hoping to that they will will will trust me.
and love me and when they get to a certain age.
Because I've developed this love and this trust from them and with them They will want to go and listen to these podcasts and say and I can say hey guys like you might not want to hear it from me sitting across the table from me right now because it might make you uncomfortable, but listen to episode, you know to 225 of the out worker podcast and you know, like just listen to it because I think the one thing that I have
done over the course of my career as a business person, but now kind of as a thought leader, which is where my career is going. It's going in that direction.
I have just opened up my life.
MichAEL (01:35:11.286)
And it's not like I've done it totally intentionally. It's just that I am so comfortable talking about my life because there were so many people around me when I needed it most that were so comfortable talking about their lives and how it made me feel so comfortable that it's just given me a freedom to talk about it. And I think that's why the content that I put out has resonated with a lot of people because I just don't pull punches and I don't
care about, you know, some people judging me. I don't. I used to. It used to really impact me. I'm in, I'm now in this men group every Tuesday night. And there's a couple of people in there that, that are, there's just this weird heaviness in there. And it's so incredible because it just shows me that I still got so much to learn. I've got so much to learn and I'll share about it. And hopefully it'll
help somebody who's also dealing with things like that. that I had never thought about, that like this stuff is going to be able, is timeless and is gonna be in the world forever. And I can share it with my children. My wife never, ever, ever listens to these things, ever, ever, ever, ever. She never does, you know, which probably is a good thing, but.
Tim Doyle (01:36:32.672)
Ha
MichAEL (01:36:39.328)
My boys, I hope, will want to.
Tim Doyle (01:36:42.312)
You're a creator at heart. And what that also gets into is you've been an incredible documentarian of your life. And I think the podcast thing goes into that as well. It's been incredible to talk with you, Michael, where can people go to see more of the work that you're doing and if they want to connect with you.
MichAEL (01:37:00.748)
You can follow along my journey at Michael Chernow, pretty much everywhere. I'm most active on Instagram, but my business, Creatures of Habit, is Creatures with a K. Creaturesofhabit.com is our website to learn more about what we do at Creatures. And you can also follow us at Creaturesofhabit on all social media platforms.
Tim Doyle (01:37:22.472)
Awesome. Great talking with you today.
MichAEL (01:37:24.61)
Thanks so much for having me, man.
