Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
Outworker
#065 - Dean Karnazes - The Ultramarathon Mindset & The Art Of Living Fully
Dean Karnazes shares how curiosity—not ambition—has been his driving force, how running pulled him out of his darkest chapter, and why suffering brings us closer to truth. We explore the night that changed his life, his relationship with pain, solitude, and movement, and the philosophy that turned his body into an ongoing experiment. From ancient Greek poetry to 350-mile runs, this is a conversation about living fully, thinking clearly, and asking better questions one footstep at a time.
Timestamps:
00:00 Ultramarathons As A Gateway To God
01:03 Leading With Curiosity Over Ambition
02:05 Performing At A High Level For So Long
03:59 Happiest When We Are Struggling Most
06:29 The Night That Changed Everything
13:04 Relationship Between Winning & Survival
14:31 Have We Romanticized Running?
19:03 Evolution Of Training Philosophies
22:27 Dean's Evolved Relationship With Pain
25:28 Healing From Unwilling Pain
27:42 Knowing How To Quiet Your Mind
30:00 Inspired By Ancient Greek Literature & Depth Of Identity
32:54 Different Environment, Different Identity
34:06 The Dream Of Life
35:02 Dean's Next Quest
37:08 Connect With Dean Karnazes
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What’s up outworkers. Dean Karnazes shares how curiosity—not ambition—has been his driving force, how running pulled him out of his darkest chapter, and why suffering brings us closer to truth. We explore the night that changed the direction of his life, his relationship with pain, solitude, and movement, and the philosophy that turned his body into an ongoing experiment. From ancient Greek literature to 350-mile runs, this is a conversation about living fully, thinking clearly, and asking better questions one footstep at a time.
Tim Doyle (00:06.316)
If you want to run, run a mile. If you want to change your life, run a marathon. If you want to talk to God, run an ultra. You've run many ultras. What have those talks been like?
Dean Karnazes (00:19.747)
Glorious, you know, spiritual moments where you're kind of at one with the universe and your ego is dissipated and you're just kind of floating along like a spirit.
Tim Doyle (00:36.76)
I like that you lead it seems like with your running and life in general with questions rather than statements, where it's like, you have this mindset of, I wonder if I could do that instead of I am going to do that. How do you think running and living from a place of curiosity rather than ambition has benefited you?
Dean Karnazes (01:02.505)
I think in so many ways, we could spend this whole podcast articulating on how curiosity is my greatest strength, I think, and probably the greatest human strength. It's led me to stay in the game. So many of my peers have burned out and I still am so curious about how far I can go, how much further I can last, what new sort challenges can I take on. So keeping that.
the eyes of a child and always being curious I think is great strength and a great skill for anyone.
Tim Doyle (01:41.134)
So the fact that you are able to continue to perform at such a high level, do you think that there is, that strictly goes to the seriousness and the discipline that you bring to your own routines, trainings and recoveries? Because I also know you've done genetic testing on your body and you found out that you continuously flush out lactic acid.
So where do you see that relationship or why do you think you've been able to continue to perform at such a high level?
Dean Karnazes (02:16.596)
I think that I view myself through the lens of being the best animal I can be. So everything I do is with that focus, whether it's my diet, my training or cross training, my sleep habits, my interpersonal relationships, everything I do, try to maximize for performance, for my human performance to be the best that it can be. So it's not just one thing, it's all of these things.
And it's also this idea of continuous improvement, of never stop exploring, of always trying new things, experimenting, and seeing if something can work better than your current routine. I'm doing that constantly. And the other thing, let's be honest, I'm not a young man anymore. So the challenges now for me are, probably gonna win my age group, because I win almost every time.
of my age group, but no one really cares about who wins your age group except people in your age group. So now the challenge for me is just to take on these really tough, tough challenges and see if I can finish. You know, I'm just trying to get to the finish line a lot of times. And some of these, races that I do, like the race I did last weekend, less than half the starters finished. So it's, you know, it wasn't about winning the race or even being on the podium. It was just getting to the finish line.
Tim Doyle (03:39.0)
Why do you think we are most happiest and most alive when we're struggling?
Dean Karnazes (03:45.973)
think that comfort is overrated. I think that we were born to suffer. mean, existence is suffering, let's face it. It's hard being alive. Having our minds being so active makes it even more difficult. But life is about loss, right? mean, no one lives forever and that's a tragedy of living.
that you're gonna come to an end and all your loved ones are gonna come to an end. So I think life is always gonna be a struggle in that regard. And I think that we are at our best in times when we're forced to confront ourselves, confront our shortcomings and to see if we can improve and go beyond our perceived limitations.
Tim Doyle (04:35.128)
taking you back to your past life and this relationship with struggling. Would you say you were struggling and suffering in a way that wasn't making you happy and wasn't making you feel alive when you were working at GlaxoSmithKline?
Dean Karnazes (04:54.496)
Yeah, I I kind of followed society's prescription for happiness. know, go to a good college, know, go to business school, know, land a comfortable cushion, you know, job, you know, have stock options, a nice paycheck, you know, all the perks that come with, you know, a good education and a good job. And the recipe just wasn't working for me. I achieved all those things and I was miserable. And I thought there's got to be more to life than...
you know, then the easy path. You've got to do what you love. And if that's tough and if it's, you know, not convenient or not an easy way to make a living, you still need to do it. Otherwise, you're going to be unfulfilled your whole life.
Tim Doyle (05:41.26)
Yeah, it's interesting. You were comfortable, which made you miserable. And so if we looked at this like within an equation with struggle, this understanding of struggle, it's like when you struggle came at the end of the equation in your past life, you hated it. But like when you put it in the start of the equation for you and like you're consciously bringing it on within your life and you're doing these things that
are rooted in struggle. That's where the the energy and the fulfillment comes like for you. A pivotal moment in your journey. Take me back to that night in 1992 at the Paragon bar.
Dean Karnazes (06:27.616)
You probably weren't even born then, but yeah, it was there. There was a very, you know, hip district of San Francisco, the Marina District, back in those days. And there was a bar that was kind of like the hangout. And I was in there with my buddies on my 30th birthday celebrating, you know, doing a lot of guys doing their 30th birthday. was getting shit faced. And at midnight, I told my buddies I was leaving. And said, but, you know, where are you going on your 30th birthday?
Tim Doyle (06:30.07)
I was not.
Dean Karnazes (06:57.639)
let's have another round of tequila to celebrate. And I said, no, I'm gonna run 30 miles to celebrate instead. And I'll never forget, they looked at me and they said, but you're not a runner, you're drunk. And I told them, yeah, I am drunk, but I'm still gonna do it. So I walked out of the bar and I didn't even own running gear at the time, but I had on these comfortable silk boxers, underwear, silk underwear. So I took off my pants and I threw them down the alleyway and I just started stumbling off into the night.
heading south knowing there's a town called Half Moon Bay that was 30 miles away. And I said, you know, run to Half Moon Bay. And, know, about 10 miles down the road, I sobered up and I thought, what the hell are you doing? This is a really bad idea. But I looked up and I, I don't know, I think I had like a moment with God out there in the middle of the night. And I realized that, you know, you're a runner, you love this shit.
It's not sophisticated, it's not AI, it's not rocket science, but it's who you are. And just be true to that and you're gonna be a lot happier. So I somehow made it 30 miles and that night forever changed the course of my life.
Tim Doyle (08:10.904)
When you put alcohol and life changing moment within the same sentence, the natural inclination would be like, this person's life changed for the worse or it like something bad must have happened. But it's so fascinating for you is the exact opposite. And it was the launching pad for your life. Obviously very important component of your story that night and sort of this reinvigoration for how you wanted your life to unfold. it's not like you went,
overnight from Dean Kernaz's corporate person to ultra marathon runner. How did the journey unfold when you're still in this corporate setting at your job, but now you're like, okay, I don't want to be doing this anymore. I'm trying to get somewhere else. How did everything like that unfold?
Dean Karnazes (08:44.991)
short.
Dean Karnazes (09:02.238)
You know, it was me doing things like, you know, training during lunch and then, you know, taking a quick bath in the sink at the office. You know, it was bending the rules as much as I could to incorporate training. But also being a little bit
afraid to step out of the comfort zone, if you will. The security of a corporate job is wonderful, but it's also a hand tough. prison cell with the door wide open. So it took me a while to get the courage to think it's all or nothing. mean, you either go for this or you don't, but you can't keep...
staying on this middle ground, you need to commit or you need to back off. And I knew, like, you get one chance at a commitment at my age in that stage of the game. And if you don't make that commitment, you'll probably spend your whole life regretting that you didn't try, at least thinking that maybe you should have tried and maybe your life could have been different.
Tim Doyle (10:11.97)
When did things transform for you from the standpoint of, okay, I'm back into running. I like running into, okay, now I'm running and I'm doing some pretty crazy stuff.
Dean Karnazes (10:26.14)
Yeah, well, you you got to remember that the era we're talking about, you know, the gig economy now, it's kind of easy. It's so much easier to make a living doing like a side hustle. And it's commonplace now. You know, when I did this, it was kind of unheard of. was, you know, there was no way to be an ambassador or an influencer or any of that stuff. So for me, it was, you know, the prospect was try to figure it out on your own with no roadmap or just stay in the corporate world.
but I finished this 100 mile foot race called the Western States 100 mile trail run, which is in California in the Sierra Nevada. And at the finish, these two guys came up to me and they're representatives with a North face. And they said, hey, we like this trail running thing. It's kind of cool. Will you help us design a line of shoes specifically for trail running? And you know,
At first I thought, come on, it's not a legitimate business, trail running. Are they going to pay me or just give me free shoes? So said, let me think about it. And I started walking to go take a shower and I turned around like three steps away and said, okay, let's do this. And so I started a relationship with the North Face and it was right at the time where trail running was starting to really take off. Like me being a road runner, I realized that
Like I'm an outdoor guy and being on the road is, it's not really outdoors. It's kind of, you you're on a manmade surface. I really enjoyed running on the trails and I kind of rode that wave.
Tim Doyle (12:04.526)
some other incredible things that you've done. mean, running 50 marathons in 50 states and 50 straight days, ran 350 miles in 81 hours, won bad water ultra at 42 years old. And you've talked about how a lot of the time it never feels like you win, but it's just about surviving the fastest. What's the breakdown like for you when it comes to understanding that relationship between winning and survival?
Dean Karnazes (12:35.51)
It's a fine edge and I've done thousands of races now and I've DNF'd maybe a handful of times, but it's a fine edge between pushing yourself to the hospital and staying within your limits. So I know now how to abut that edge pretty closely and I know when I need to back it off and that comes through experience.
Like I said, I ran this 110 mile race last weekend. It was really tough. yeah, I mean, I wasn't the youngest guy. I wasn't the fastest guy. wasn't the strongest guy. But I did really well because I'm very attuned to my body and I have so much experience that I know, okay, you still got something, you still got gas in the tank or no, there's nothing there. Downshift and just go into a survival shuffle for the next few miles until you can get to an A station.
Tim Doyle (13:34.542)
I'm not really big into the running scene. You know, I like to lift weights and I like to stay physically fit, but I never like really got into running. So from an outsider's perspective, looking in how I perceive running now is I feel like running and social media, I think has the reason for this as well. It seems like running has really become romanticized where
run clubs, group activity, like this is fun stuff. and that's all great, but I'm a big believer when it comes to exercise, whether it's running or any type of modality, like one of the real benefits of exercise is personal development and what that personal development, is built on is solitude, where, you know, you're running alone or you're, you know, working out alone.
Dean Karnazes (14:12.412)
.
Tim Doyle (14:32.654)
where you're not always in a group setting where you have somebody else pushing you or, you know, running ultra marathons. Like, yeah, like that sucks. Like this isn't all just like cool stuff. so somebody who's deep within the running world, do you think there's some truth to what I'm saying? Do you agree with that? I would be curious to know your perspective on.
Dean Karnazes (14:56.492)
Well, I mean, I'm an introvert by nature, so I subscribe to what you're saying. I think that we all need our quiet solitude, even if you're an extrovert. And I think the world is devoid of that now. And I think it's lacking in depth.
because people are so social and they don't know how to be by themselves or they're afraid to be by themselves. So for me just to go training for five or six hours on a trail by myself, I love it. I'm very comfortable doing that. The ultramarathon I ran, again, I'll just go back to the most recent one from last weekend. I was by myself probably 80 % of the time and it took 26 hours to finish. pretty much in your own head.
for that amount of time, at one with nature and at one with yourself. I would say that running has blossomed in so many ways. It's hard to keep track of. mean, they're running dating clubs now. They're dating apps where you meet a fellow runner and you go on a running date. There's all kinds of activities like that. I would say that marathoning has become really popular with your generation.
which I can't believe because traditionally when I first got into it, it was a bunch of older men that running marathons and then some tough old women got into it and now it seems almost like a rite of passage where college kids are like, want to run a marathon just because they want to either check it off their bucket list or they know it's a challenge and maybe one of their friends ran a marathon and they saw the medal and they said, hey, that's badass, I want to get one those and
You can't fake your way through a marathon. I mean, sure you can go do a 10K and it's social and you're amongst people, but even like the New York City Marathon where there are two million people along the course, it's a goddamn lonely experience. When you're in the pain cave, it's a solo cave. mean, even if you're running right next to your best buddy, you're in your own head. The marathon commands it and it hurts. And I really want you to try it. I want you to train and do a marathon because
Dean Karnazes (17:08.886)
It's a challenge and it'll test you. It really will. I know you're tough and you're strong and you get in the gym and you probably throw on a lot of weight, but the marathon is different. It intermixes physical exertion with mental fatigue and just the sheer pounding of the repetitive footsteps. It's brutal. I love it.
Tim Doyle (17:33.282)
Yeah, like I said, I'm not big into running, I am as I've continued to mature and get older, my appreciation and love for cardiovascular based exercise compared to weight training has like completely inverted. Like I used to love weight training and cardio just to like be healthy, but I'm like, no, like cardiovascular is like truly what I enjoy the most doing now. So
I guess I'll have to add that to the list of if Dean Karnazes, Mr. Ultra Marathon himself is, I got to run a marathon. don't think I can get out of that one. How do you think your training philosophies have evolved over the course of your life? Any big changes or beliefs that have transformed?
Dean Karnazes (18:08.57)
Yes.
Dean Karnazes (18:28.249)
You know, I've come to believe that we are built to move. So one thing I try never to do is something you're doing right now. I try never to sit down. So I kind of have this pledge to myself that from the moment you get out of bed in the morning until the moment you go back to sleep, don't sit down. So I'm constantly on my feet. You know, when I'm doing my, when I'm writing my books or when I'm doing emails, I'm standing, I'm bouncing on my toes like this.
And then I do HIIT training throughout the course of the day. So I don't compartmentalize my workout into like, okay, I'm do one hour of, you know, chest and shoulders this day, you one hour of legs this day. I'm working my entire body throughout the course of the day with HIIT training. Sometimes body weight, sometimes I've got a home gym. So sometimes I go in the gym and lift pretty heavy weights for me where, you know, I fatigue after three or four reps. So I change it up. So a lot of times I might do,
you know, a set of just 60 or 70 military pushups, just standard military pushups. And then I'll, you know, get some dumbbells out and load them up where I can only do, you know, with someone guiding me, maybe three or four reps. So I change it up like that. I, know, there's the idea of muscle confusion. And I think that I'm just constantly working out throughout the day. And, know, I've got a pull-up bar outside and I've got a couple of places where there are strategic pull-up places in my house.
And sometimes when I walk by, I just force myself to do 15 pull-ups. Just, okay, grab the ledge, 15 pull-ups. I make it easy for myself to exercise.
Tim Doyle (20:05.966)
So that whole philosophy of the moment you got out of bed, I'm standing up, I'm always moving throughout the entire day until I go back to bed. How long have you been doing that for?
Dean Karnazes (20:16.281)
a decade. I I'm practical. If I'm driving a car, obviously I'm not standing up. Unfortunately, I've got to travel a lot. So when I'm on a plane, I'm walking the aisles a lot. The flight attendants are always going go sit down. I can't sit down. I can't stand up all the time. But if I don't have to go anywhere, if it's like a home office day, all day I'm standing up.
Tim Doyle (20:22.062)
Yeah
Tim Doyle (20:31.596)
Ha
Tim Doyle (20:42.68)
Another interesting component of your training philosophy that I learned about is you would prolong the miserable state after your training is over. So not eating right away, not cooling off, not taking a shower. What do you think the benefit of that has been?
Dean Karnazes (21:01.592)
think it helps so much. It allows your body to adapt to the stress put on it. mean, let's face it, any sort of workout, any heat adaptation, your body's changing, making physiological changes based on the stressor. So, you know, I've run with buddies where it's hot out, you know, we'll get back to the house and they'll go take a nice bath right away and I'll stay kind of in that hot, miserable condition for another hour or two.
just let my body adopt. And so I think that I really preach that is make yourself miserable during your workouts, deprive yourself. And, you know, it's same thing with like intermittent fasting. You're depriving yourself and it has benefits.
Tim Doyle (21:50.402)
Would love to dive deeper into your relationship with pain. used to take anti-inflammatory pills to help mitigate pain, stopped taking them and just allowed your body to do its thing and react how it naturally would. So you were using those things to try to, I guess you could say, create some distance between you and pain. And then you strip that away.
and you come face to face with pain, what do you think that entire experience taught you when you stopped taking those anti-inflammatory pills and how do you think that evolved your relationship with pain?
Dean Karnazes (22:34.742)
Well, I mean, when I think that those anti-inflammatories like non-soral anti-inflammatories like Motrin, I mean, or ibuprofen, it's not a prescription drug I was taking. Those things are deleterious to your performance. So it might numb or dull the pain.
in the moment, but it's doing not so great things to your kidneys. It's doing a lot of other things that are not so good. also studies have shown that it doesn't help with recovery. actually hurts recovery. And I think it's for the same reason I just described. It interferes with your body's natural anti-inflammatory mechanisms by putting a drug in there to do that. So once I stopped taking those, it's been about 20 years now. I noticed that my performance improved.
Uh, yeah, the pain is more acute and you feel it more acute, but you know, your, body, it, it, it, it overcomes the pain. mean, it, it, you know, I say to people, you know, it, it, it, the, the, the pain only hurts until it goes away. You know, it's painful and then it becomes numbness. So, uh, you know, I've learned that, okay, there's going to be a level of pain, embrace this pain, you know, pain means that you're alive.
and keep pushing forward.
Tim Doyle (23:54.722)
Yeah, so you changed, I guess, your physiological relationship with pain or your physiological response to pain. How do you think that was like a launching pad to, I guess, a further understanding or philosophical change in how you understood pain, you know, not when it just came to running?
Dean Karnazes (24:16.055)
I pain is like in, I would say it's in the synopsis of beholder. It's in the nerve endings of the beholder. mean, you and I could be running the same distance and you could be saying, oh my God, this is killing me, this is killing me. It's all in your head, right? And I could be saying, yeah, this is fine. I mean, like when I go to the dentist, I don't have Novacaine anymore. I it you say, I want to feel the pain. Like I want to see if I can handle this.
Tim Doyle (24:32.707)
Yeah.
Dean Karnazes (24:45.75)
as kind of a test and it's amazing what you can tolerate. It really is things you thought you could never endure, you can.
Tim Doyle (24:57.016)
Yeah, we have much more control over pain and how we respond to it than I think a lot of us believe. And you've willingly put yourself through a lot of painful moments in your life in terms of running and endurance, but you've also experienced a lot of unwilling pain through the loss of your sister when she was 21 years old. How do you think running played a role within your life?
in finding any sense of healing in processing that.
Dean Karnazes (25:32.914)
I mean, I think, and I mean, it's literally running saved my life. mean, running brought me out of a depression that I thought I'd never get out of. and, I'm not alone in that regard. mean, I know a lot of, runners that have suffered with, you know, PTSD, alcoholism, drug abuse, all kinds of things, you know, child, you know, abuse as a child and running has made them whole again somehow. the power of running is.
It's undeniable and it's a drug with no side effects. So, you know, the runner's high, which, you know, people used to think it was endorphins, but we know now it's endocannabinoids. You know, it's real and it's something that can soothe the pain and get you back together.
Tim Doyle (26:29.102)
Do you think running has zero side effects? You think there's never been a point in your life where like, ooh, there's a little side effect there?
Dean Karnazes (26:37.663)
I mean, like a drug side effect. I sort of the side effects, know, cramping and whatever, you know, I'm sure my joints are, I know my joints are, you know, not in the best shape, but that said, I mean, at my age, if you compare me with my peer groups, you know, I'm in much better physical shape. You know, my joints are much healthier. I'm sure there's some age-related degradation, but I don't think...
Tim Doyle (26:40.62)
Yeah, yeah.
Dean Karnazes (27:05.653)
there are any side effects to running. mean, you don't have a hangover, there's no, nothing like that.
Tim Doyle (27:12.558)
believe being a strong thinker is knowing how not to think at times. And I know you're a big component of quieting your mind. How have you gone about doing that?
Dean Karnazes (27:26.101)
Well, mean, it takes discipline, first of all. mean, people think you just think of nothing and that's how you quiet your mind, but it doesn't work that way. I mean, when you try to think of nothing, your mind is flooded with thoughts. So you have to consciously divert those thoughts by letting the thought pass through or just saying, okay, I'm thinking about something, don't think about anything. To me, it's much easier to do when you're moving, when you're just to focus on your next footstep.
and I'll just put my head down and just look at my feet and say, okay, take your next footstep to your best ability. Take your next footstep to your best ability. Don't think about how much further you've got to go. Don't reflect on the past. When these thoughts start to enter your mind, let them go and just focus, come back to your next footstep. So it's almost like a Zen-like trance you can put yourself in. it's like a spiritual awakening when you come out of it as well.
So it's, yeah, if you can learn to quiet, you know, I tried meditation and I just was never good at it. I gotta be honest.
Tim Doyle (28:31.982)
Do you think that comes from a stillness perspective for you? And maybe you didn't like meditation. Like do you obviously you're a big runner, you're always on the move, especially getting out of bed and not like being in a sedentary position until you go back to bed. Do you think, guess, bringing the side effects into it as well, do you think you've struggled with stillness in your life at times or you feel like that's something that you've never been able to get a hold of?
Dean Karnazes (29:01.748)
Yeah, think, know, motion stirs emotion. And I feel like when I'm still, I'm kind of dead. I'm like a shark, you know, I need to have water going through my gills constantly. yeah, I mean, I felt guilty about sitting still when I was trying to meditate sitting still. So, you know, I can meditate very well when I'm moving, but just when I try to meditate, I'm like a, you know, a lizard that's trying, or chameleon that's trying too hard, you know, to change colors. Like I can't change colors when I'm...
Tim Doyle (29:11.393)
Interesting.
Dean Karnazes (29:30.098)
meditating, but when I go running, it comes naturally.
Tim Doyle (29:34.488)
From my perspective, you don't only like running for the physical component to it, but also the larger storytelling nature of it. And I feel like that stems from your love for ancient Greek literature. Do you feel like you're more inspired when you look way back into those times rather than looking to the future?
Dean Karnazes (30:03.102)
yeah, without a doubt. I'm glad you brought that up. Yeah, of course. you know, I'm a student of classics and I mean, starting with, you know, basically the very first book ever, which was The Iliad by Homer. I mean, you read The Iliad and The Odyssey and it's the themes in there are so powerful and so real.
nothing compares. That's the problem. Once you read these works, you can't hold up anything against them. There's just no comparison. They're so vastly superior to anything of modern times. know, from, you know, Pythagoras, or Pythagoras, from his philosophies, the things he wrote and said are so profound and so much
wiser than anything you hear modern mystics or stoics preaching. So I mean, I could go on and on about Sappho, the lyric poet from Lesbos. yeah, I mean, of course, also Plato and Aristotle, know, Aeschylus and some of the more known figures are great as well. But some of the more obscure figures that you don't read so much about.
those are really, really powerful lessons to be learned from them.
Tim Doyle (31:29.442)
You wrote a movie script on Socrates and got a classics degree from Villanova. Obviously running is the central part of your life, but you also have these fascinating components to you. Like I just said, and you have this depth of knowledge to you when it comes to ancient Greek literature. Does it ever feel like to you? Like, Hey, I'm more than just this running guy or, you know, I'm not just this one dimensional person who likes to run a lot.
Dean Karnazes (32:01.127)
I'm curious, right? We get back to the curious mind. It goes beyond running. But I don't think too much of myself. mean, know, Sakhavish said, you know, the only thing he knows with certainty is that he knows nothing at all. So I think, you know, I don't think too highly of myself. I think that I'm curious and I love learning, but, you know, it's just my passion.
Yeah, it's not like I'm trying so hard. I didn't feel like it's a lot of effort to learn about the classics.
Tim Doyle (32:29.368)
Yeah.
So you split your time between California and Greece and you've talked about how when you're living in the States when versus when you're living in Greece, it's a much different environment. And just like the US culture versus there, it's just a much different energy. How do you think? I guess getting more so into your identity there, do you feel like you are a different person when you're living in the US versus when you're?
in Greece.
Dean Karnazes (33:06.058)
I spent most of my life in the US, but I feel more comfortable in Greece. And I don't know how to describe it. Obviously, the Greek culture has been around a lot longer. The Greek culture has been around 3,000 years. So people have a way of interacting that is a little more sophisticated and refined, not even knowing it. The US is still kind of a melting pot. It's a very new country still, the US. The other thing is that
know, Grease is imperfect. It's kind of fucked up. And I'm imperfect and kind of fucked up. And so I feel like I fit in better here. Yeah.
Tim Doyle (33:41.272)
Hahaha
Tim Doyle (33:46.99)
You have a, there's a quote that you like from Johann Wolfgang von Gutta, of all peoples, the Greeks have dreamt the dream of life best. What's that dream of life look like for you?
Dean Karnazes (34:06.545)
All right. I mean, life is a dream. as you get older, you realize it's just that. I mean, there's so many themes in literature that speak to that. Even if you think about just the lyrics to, you know, row your boat down the stream merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. So we're all in a dream state. We're all here for just a flash of time, an instant. And consciousness is a loop. Right. We don't even know what consciousness is. We don't know why you are you and I and me.
but it's just this brilliant, beautiful, tragic dream. And not to live it to its fullest, not to enjoy it as much to me as a sin.
Tim Doyle (34:49.186)
Is there a question that still really drives you bringing it back to the curiosity thing? Is there a question either with something that you haven't done yet when it comes to running or some other type of challenge that still really drives you or energizes you that you want to unpack and take action on?
Dean Karnazes (35:10.8)
Yeah, I've run on all seven continents of Earth twice now. So I've run across the ancient Silk Road, which was to me incredible to see because I studied Alexander the Great as well and his conquest across the Middle East and even the Far East and seeing remnants of Greece that were left behind from his journeys 2200 years ago.
which is incredible that in 2200 years, know, the influence is still felt there. But I'd like to go even further. I'd like to run from the lowest point on earth to the highest point on earth. So you probably know the highest point on earth.
Tim Doyle (35:54.242)
North Pole.
Dean Karnazes (35:55.619)
No, Mount Everest. In the sky, yeah. We're going up, yeah, we're going up. Do you know the lowest?
Tim Doyle (35:58.654)
wow, okay, so we're going up. Wow, so you want to climb Everest.
Dean Karnazes (36:08.944)
But I want to start at the lowest point on earth. So the lowest to the highest. You know where the lowest point on earth is?
Tim Doyle (36:12.28)
Wow.
So are we talking like bottom of the sea here? You're gonna go to... You're gonna go...
Dean Karnazes (36:18.032)
Oh, that'd be like Marianas Trench. No, the Dead Sea in Jordan. Yeah, so yeah.
Tim Doyle (36:26.146)
Wow. And so it'll finish off with an Everest Climb.
Dean Karnazes (36:30.768)
Yeah, think that'd be kind of, well, you know, I'd like to run to base camp or run as much as I can to get to base camp and then obviously climb Everest.
Tim Doyle (36:40.104)
my, wow. That is quite the, like we said, not leading with ambition, but leading with curiosity. That's quite the question of, hey, wonder what that would be like. That's pretty remarkable. I think that's a great place to end. Where can people go to connect with you, see more of all the work that you do when it comes to running and everything there?
Dean Karnazes (36:54.319)
Yeah.
Dean Karnazes (37:09.168)
Yeah, I just, I mean, you can just Google my name. Someone told me if you Google Dean, I'm the first one that comes up. So I've got a website, I've got, I'm on social media. I have five books, so check out one of my books. Even if you're not a big runner, it's a good story. It's good storytelling.
Tim Doyle (37:29.282)
Yeah, and what I love about your social media the most, it's not under Dean Karnazes. You were able to get the handle ultra marathon. that's where people are gonna have to look up. Dean, really great talking with you today.
Dean Karnazes (37:45.293)
Likewise, brother. Be well. Let me know how that marathon goes.
Tim Doyle (37:49.058)
Will do. And then I'll follow it up with you on the lowest point, the highest point. That'll be my next thing.
Dean Karnazes (37:56.759)
Okay, it's a race.
