Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with oneself is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
Outworker
#068 – Melissa Nanavati – The Psychology Behind Peak Performance Love
Melissa Nanavati reveals the blueprint for Peak Performance Love. She shares how she transformed anxious attachment into self-trust, built a rock-solid relationship through her husband’s Antarctica expedition, and turned personal healing into professional mastery. We unpack her intensive meditation journey, the neuroscience of forgiveness, the duality of ambition and intimacy, and the power of daily check-ins, curiosity, and play. This is a deep dive into how high performers can build relationships that strengthen—not sideline—their mission.
Timestamps:
00:00 Having Melissa's Husband On The Show
04:27 Dealing With Personal Instability In The Past
05:59 Needing A New Relationship Framework
07:44 A Skewed High Performer Lens For Relationships
10:35 Impact Of 40 Years of Zen Meditation Retreat
15:55 Women Asking Men Out
17:25 My Hesitancy With High Performance Language
22:02 Setting Up Dating Guidelines
25:59 Shifting From Personal Experience To Work
32:00 Navigating Cracks In Relationships
36:00 Highest Revenue Year After Getting Into A Relationship
40:28 Competing With Your Partner
42:49 Nobody Else Doing This Work
46:19 Relationship With Partner Developing Relationship With Self
50:19 Connect With Melissa Nanavati
Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.
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What’s up outworkers. Melissa Nanavati reveals the blueprint for Peak Performance Love. She shares how she transformed anxious attachment into self-trust, built a rock-solid relationship through her husband’s Antarctica expedition, and turned personal healing into professional mastery. We unpack her intensive meditation journey, the neuroscience of forgiveness, the duality of ambition and intimacy, and the power of daily check-ins, curiosity, and play. This is a deep dive into how high performers can build relationships that strengthen—not sideline—their mission.
Tim Doyle (00:06.602)
I had your husband Akshay on the show not once but twice and was able to tell him that he was the first repeat guest. And now I get to tell you that you are the first spouse of a past guest as well. So really hitting all the cards with you and Akshay.
Melissa Nanavati (00:24.18)
I'm so honored. I'm so honored and excited to be here.
Tim Doyle (00:27.68)
Yeah, the relationship component because I first got introduced to Akshay and his work and then got introduced to you through his work and his journey. know, Akshay tried to become the first person ever to ski solo across Antarctica. But more so than that, his whole philosophy behind Fjurvana is something that really resonates with me, but was really interested and fascinated by
the relationship component that was documented through his Antarctica journey. And honestly, I think that was the thing that I found the most interesting. Like obviously a person who's trying to go coast to coast across Antarctica, obviously something very interesting to look at. But the relationship component is something that I found.
the most interesting and what I told Akshay was the documentary Free Solo with Alex Honnold. There's a component to that as well where obviously he's trying to do this remarkable thing and the plot line in that was his relationship with his wife as well. But on the opposite end of this spectrum of there was a lot of friction there and she was, you know,
not a proponent of him doing this. So I'm interested to hear on your end now because obviously I've talked to Akshay about the Antarctica journey. Want to hear your perspective on that entire journey and how that kind of became your own journey as well.
Melissa Nanavati (02:11.118)
Absolutely. So with his journey across Antarctica for anybody who's listening, if you haven't heard those episodes, he ended up being in Antarctica for about 60 days total, but we were apart for 70. And even prior to that, for his training expeditions, we ended up spending a total of four months apart, which as you can imagine in a first year or so of a marriage puts a bit of strain, but it was such a spiritual journey for me too. And I often tell people that, you know, what
brought me into this is not that I was attracted to him doing dangerous things or going out there, but it was really the kind of person you have to be to have a desire and that level of commitment to really follow through on such an impossible journey. And that's the thing that drew me in. And so for me, coming from a background of somebody who actually struggled a lot with anxious attachment, what better spiritual journey than to be with somebody who is in literally the most geographically isolated place on earth.
And it was a really profound journey for me of getting actually to be the stable rock. So he would call me every day from the expedition. And as you probably heard on some of his audio updates about just downloading what happened to that day. And so my goal every day that he called was to be the soft place to land, to be that sense of support and safety. And ironically, when you start from that frame of I need to be the stable one, it actually transforms you.
And it offered me an opportunity to actually truly feel stable, not just being there for him. And so when you're put through those challenges, similar to individual challenges, you change so much in that process. And I would say I came out on the other end, a much more grounded version of myself and even throughout, because not only was I supporting Akshay, but I was supporting both of our families and holding the emotions of all the people around us. And so it really forced me into a place of...
being that rock and that steadiness.
Tim Doyle (04:06.178)
That's interesting. So you said a lot there that it was your time to be the stable one. So are you alluding to not necessarily within your relationship with Oxxay, but previously in your life, would you say that there was a lot of instability there? Like you said, you had a lot of anxious attachment. So was it a time in your life where you kind of stepped into the reins of truly a new person, you would say?
Melissa Nanavati (04:12.642)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Nanavati (04:25.442)
Nah.
Melissa Nanavati (04:33.174)
Absolutely. So a bit about my background before getting together with Akshay, I had actually been on over hundred first dates and was serious about finding my partner. And in that process too, was learning a lot about myself. I always joke around date 60, I sort of lost hope for a little bit there and realized I had, you know, a lot of my own stuff to work through. And it was the catalyst for me to really go into the fact. I was like clinically diagnosed anxiety disorder. I had
terrible anxious attachment. So I went through that inner work of not only going into therapy, doing a lot of self study, reading every book on relationship, personal development I could get my hands on, even going to a neurofeedback retreat called 40 Years of Zen, where I did a lot of that healing work in real time, listening to my own brain waves and meditating and going through and removing all my old triggers, honestly, and doing a ton of forgiveness work that got me to this place of being somebody who was
grounded, stable, and able to hold all of
Tim Doyle (05:32.854)
Yeah, I want to talk about that meditation more, but before we go there, what was the turning point for you when you really realized like, okay, I need a new framework when it comes to relationships.
Melissa Nanavati (05:46.2)
So for me, that really came, I would say, in my late 20s. I had found that, you I was one of those people who was considered a social drinker, but really struggled with alcohol and drinking a lot in social settings to just feel a little bit less of that anxiety, which ironically, of course, perpetuates the cycle. And so for me, was actually when I finally cut out alcohol, I believe I was...
I just turned 27 and I made the conscious decision to quit drinking. That was the turning point that I realized I needed a new framework and I needed tools to really be able to be with myself sober and to be with myself in high stress situations. At the time I was running a very successful business consulting, doing a lot on the external, but nobody knew I was really suffering internally when it came to the anxiousness and the anxiety in everyday life.
Tim Doyle (06:35.426)
Was there a sense of isolation that you felt when you cut out alcohol or what was that transition period like?
Melissa Nanavati (06:41.6)
Yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. It was absolutely that moment of feeling isolated because all the friends, all the people I had met through the tech industry, mean, drinking was the primary way of socializing. So that's actually when I discovered Dave Asprey's work and the biohacking world and got really into all of that was actually as a way to feel community in that time of sobriety. And, you know, the Human Upgrade podcast, formerly Bulletproof Radio, was one of the first
Tim Doyle (06:43.81)
Haha.
Melissa Nanavati (07:08.152)
podcasts I really got into that helped me realize there were other people who were taking care of their health and it made me feel less isolated.
Tim Doyle (07:16.106)
In moments of disagreement and friction, and Akshay used the phrase, my lens of reality is. What do you think the common lens is that a lot of high performers look through when it comes to relationships, whether before getting into a relationship or when they are in a relationship, when they have the belief for the mindset of
I, you know, I can't get into a relationship like that. That's not for me. Or when they are in a relationship, they're like, like this is why it's not working. Like, what do you think that skewed lens is that high performers look through?
Melissa Nanavati (07:52.43)
That's a great question. And I think the biggest lens is that a relationship is going to detract from their time or their mission or their goals. I think this is particularly true for men in my experience of my work and through friends, you know, that you have to focus all in on your goals and any time away for a partner will distract you and the partner is going to be a source of friction. And so I think that stops a lot of high performers from even attempting to date or to get into relationship. And then once you're in relationship to your point,
I think the switch comes when there are moments of disagreement, when things don't feel easy. And I think we are wired to look for the easy route. And even if you're a high performer day to day, you want home to be a safe place to land. You want it to be a source of peace. But the paradox is that the only way to have peace is through courageous action, is through having those hard conversations. But if we're not given the tools to effectively have those conversations and what you mentioned a moment ago about
the phrase that Akshaya and I use is, my lens of reality is. And what we love about this phrase is it immediately orients you to the fact that what you are experiencing is not necessarily the truth. It is simply the lens in which you are viewing that moment. And I think that that phrase can really help people, especially in moments of friction of saying, or the story I'm telling myself is, is another favorite. Because again, it reminds you that your thoughts are not truth.
Your thoughts are an experience and the other person in front of you is likely having a very different experience.
Tim Doyle (09:26.956)
So to get into that unlock for you of how your lens change and going back to that meditation, can you just walk through that entire process?
Melissa Nanavati (09:36.182)
Absolutely. So the meditation retreat that I went to is called 40 years of Zen and they call it that because they say it's the equivalent of doing 40 years of meditation in a week. And the reason they can say that relatively confidently is, I mean, they have you do brain scans before you're in there. So you're seeing how your brain is firing and working in moments of just peace. And then you do the same scan six months later. So they actually show measurable changes. And what's happening in there is that you are
going into essentially a sensory deprivation pod. It is completely dark. You are also hooked up to electrodes and you have headphones on. So you can actually hear when your brain is getting into the right brainwave state to make new neurological connections, which is the alpha brainwave state. So I'll hear gongs when I'm in there and I'm doing meditation, I'm going into the space of looking at the things that have triggered me and following their nine step process that's actually outlined in
Dave Asprey's new book, Heavily Meditated, he actually shares the process that we go through in 40 Years of Zen to go back to the moment, the original trigger, and do the steps necessary to actually create true forgiveness and letting go. And you're hearing gongs as your brain is getting into that right brainwave state. So when you finally unpack essentially the rocks that you've been carrying around, right? Like I think, I like to think of, it's like emotional rocks you put in a backpack. So every step is harder. Every step takes more effort. And when you can,
unload all of those rocks, that's when you can be in more of a peaceful place. That's when the anxiety settles.
Tim Doyle (11:12.832)
And so is that like, your consciously like thinking of things that you want to unpack or is this like a very kind of just like you're in the moment and things just flow in the
Melissa Nanavati (11:20.962)
Yes.
Melissa Nanavati (11:27.266)
I would say it's a combination. So before every pod session is what they're called, you work with a facilitator and they actually help you kind of go through and unpack your history and the different moments. And they're really expert at picking out, that moment may have triggered this cascading effect. That might be the origin of the capital T trauma that you were experiencing. And so you go in with a list of things you need to pull to the forefront of your mind.
to access the memory to literally create a new neural pathway. So now I can think back on things that would be considered capital T trauma with no charge. And that's how you know you've really healed it is it is a memory and it's in a just like, it's almost like you're watching it on a TV screen. It's not even you. The way that you're able to look back at things and not feel any charge with the emotion. And we did that for five days. It was morning, afternoon. And so we did work in other brainwave states but the primary work we did
was forgiveness and going back to anything related to parents, family, trauma, anything you can imagine, we covered it.
Tim Doyle (12:32.15)
Wow, that's really, really fascinating. So how did that act as a launching pad for you and especially when it got into relationships?
Melissa Nanavati (12:41.738)
I actually went back a second time. So the first time for me was unpacking the rocks is what I like to say out of my backpack so that I could be more peaceful. The second time I went back, it was with a very specific intention to not only heal and turn my anxious attachment into a secure one, but also to manifest a partner. And so I went in with that very specific intention. And on the last day we did work in gamma. So I'm not sure, are you familiar with the different brainwave states?
Tim Doyle (13:09.505)
I am not.
Melissa Nanavati (13:10.498)
So I'll give a quick overview. So gamma is the one where people have those aha moments. You know, they talk about a lot in meditation or like Kundalini awakening. So gamma is a very high, fast frequency. Then you have high beta, which is when you're a little bit stressed, but you're very focused. And then you have beta, which again is a little bit that stress. And then below that, a slower brainwave state is alpha. Alpha is where you're in the creation state. That's where you can have all these creative ideas and be in flow. And then below that, I believe it's
Yeah, theta then delta. So theta is right before you fall asleep and delta is when you're asleep. So we were doing work in alpha for the most part to create new neural connections. And then at the end, we were doing work in gamma where we were aiming to just open to receive and get into this very heightened state of joy, whatever was going to come through. And it was in that gamma state that I actually had a vision of my future partnership and what it felt like. And we were traveling, there was palm trees, but I couldn't see what the person looked like.
And that vision was real enough for me that I ended up breaking my lease of 12 years in Portland, Oregon, after the retreat and moved to Scottsdale, Arizona on pure intuition and gave away all my belongings, packed up only what fit in my car. My business was remote. Who cares? I'm willing to do what it takes to get the partnership that I saw. Everyone admittedly thought I was a little bit out of my mind.
But only two months after moving here, I ended up actually meeting Akshay. And from there, we've had a bit of a whirlwind romance, but that was really founded in going deep quickly and having the big conversations very early, especially with the big journey he had ahead.
Tim Doyle (14:46.41)
You asked Akshay out first, not the other way around. And Akshay said, know, crazy guy, can try to ski solo across Antarctica, but he said, you know, he's got a big fear of asking women out. But I think that's a curious thing to dive deeper into within this conversation and higher performance and relationships. Do you think that is more common actually, where women ask?
Melissa Nanavati (14:50.382)
Yes.
Melissa Nanavati (15:00.973)
Mm-hmm.
Tim Doyle (15:15.372)
high performing men out more than the other way around.
Melissa Nanavati (15:19.234)
I don't think that that's common per se, but I wish that more women, especially if there's any women listening, have the courage and take that action because it can be confusing, especially, know, Akshay talks about this a lot as well, how there can be these high performing men that are really great in their craft, whatever they're pursuing, and there's a certain level of mastery, but relationship is just a separate craft. And that's what I always say is relationship, like anything else, can be learned and is a set of skills. And I really believe that
If more women also took the initiative to ask high performing men out, there would be a lot more partnerships throughout. Just because a man is very confident in other areas doesn't mean they're confident with women. And Akshay will be the first to say that too. And I think that that's an invitation for all of us to be bold and to the men listening as well. Having the courage, taking the courageous action to go there to ask a woman on a date, even if you're afraid of being rejected.
Tim Doyle (16:16.694)
I'm a little hesitant at times to keep saying like this phrase high performer. Yes, there's a lot of truth to it, but I guess like for me and as well, it's like your ego can get lumped in with that, especially when dating like, I'm, I'm a high performer. I'm looking for a high performance relationship. Like, yes, I think that's like really good structure and framework to use. So like you consciously understand like what you're looking for.
But how do you navigate you think that between like understanding the standards and using this terminology, but also I guess on the egotistical side of things as well as like, like I'm a high performer. I need another.
Melissa Nanavati (16:58.146)
And I think there are many relationships where one person would consider themselves a high performer or ambitious or driven is a great synonym. think calling yourself ambitious, calling yourself driven, because there is a distinction in the way that you interact with the world. There's an obsessive nature sometimes to people who are self-described as high performers. And the reason I like to use that terminology also interchangeably with high achiever is because it speaks to a part of us, I think that is often
Tim Doyle (17:05.644)
Yep.
Tim Doyle (17:09.922)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Nanavati (17:26.508)
shameful or we're embarrassed about saying, I have a lot of drive. I work at nine o'clock at night on things. And I think that there can be a lot of shame around that. And so my goal is even if it does happen to the ego a little bit, ego inherently is not bad. I think there are beautiful times to use your ego to help you move forward. And I think this is one of them. When you can identify as a high performer, it also holds you to a higher standard. And that's really the call that I have in the content that I create and the work that I do with high performers is
Yes, you have these high standards for yourself at work. Have them in your relationship. Operate as your high self. Have the hard conversations. Lead with the same level of leadership you do in your work life, in your love life.
Tim Doyle (18:09.378)
That's a really interesting component, I think, about the shame aspect or feeling that you don't want to be upfront about, hey, like I'm a very serious or driven person and like this takes up a lot of my time and this is like a huge part of my focus. How do you think people can go about navigating that more, especially at the start when meeting somebody so you can unlock those features and have those types of conversations?
Melissa Nanavati (18:36.386)
I think a great way to be able to invite and start the conversation is to ask really deep questions early on. One of those questions being, if you had a totally free weekend, how would you spend it? You'll often hear if someone's a high performer that they're going to be working on their side hustle and they're going to be working out and going to the gym. And so you can start to sense if there's alignment with the other person. And again, they don't have to operate the same way that you do, but if you then say, this is how I would spend my weekend and they are
Tim Doyle (18:51.99)
You
Melissa Nanavati (19:06.06)
looking like a deer in the headlights, that's an indicator this isn't going to be someone who's going to celebrate your level of intensity. Because it's not about always matching the level of intensity. I think it's about honoring and respecting that that person operates a certain way and can you be along for the ride.
Tim Doyle (19:23.328)
Yeah, and this is something that I mentioned to Akshay as well about the relationship component where I was like, asked, I was like, take me back to that moment where you just tell Melissa like, yeah, I'm trying to go solo across Antarctica. Like that's what I'm focused on. Like what was your reaction when you heard that for the first time? Like, did you see that? And they're like, yes, that's exactly what I'm looking for.
Melissa Nanavati (19:47.224)
Quite the opposite. it's a, you know, we did move very quickly in our relationship, but actually the first time we met, I had gone over to his house for a gathering. He's very good at bringing community together here in Scottsdale. So our mutual friend had introduced us. He had told Akshay essentially that I was single and this might be somebody you could date, but he didn't tell me that. He just said, Akshay is great at bringing people together. So my first interaction with Akshay was going to his home where there was a big map of Antarctica.
caped to his table and I see this guy with stitches in his finger pointing at the map saying, this is where I'm gonna go. And my first thought was, that seems nuts. And I was not interested at all. At that point, I thought this guy is really sweet. He's very good conversationalist and we kept seeing each other in group settings. So we always joke that, you he thought I was interested because he was a savage and super intense. And I said, absolutely not. It was because it was very clear that he cared a lot about.
people and that he was very driven and focused. And I decided to date him in spite of the fact that he was going to Antarctica, not because of it.
Tim Doyle (20:55.106)
So what were the main rules and dating guidelines that the two of you set up that you think differed from a lot of the conventional stuff that you see?
Melissa Nanavati (21:05.58)
I think the first and the only real rule I would say we set in our relationship was ironically that we would never fight, but we gave a framework to that. And our commitment was not that we would never fight, but that we would never let an issue fester. So that means having the hard conversations early and often. And we've upheld that our entire relationship and now two years in and consistently we have hard conversations and holding ourselves to that.
higher standard, I think is what allowed us to move quickly. The other thing that we did that wasn't a rule, but we put everything on the table very quickly. Yes, this was expedited because at the time that we met, he was actually scheduled to go to Antarctica only five months later. So he basically said, I will not date you unless you agree to be with me for the next seven months because I can't have somebody break up with me while I'm out there, which really sped things up. But in a beautiful way, it allowed us to go very deep, very quickly about
Tim Doyle (21:56.608)
Ha
Melissa Nanavati (22:03.234)
things like life plans, finances, family. We put everything on the table. And I think that that was not a rule, but something really unique that we did and that we consistently do. We put everything on the table. I would say we have no secrets. Our goal in our relationship is to talk about everything no matter how hard it is.
Tim Doyle (22:23.906)
The two of you spent about 80 % of your first year together traveling for OXA's training all across the world. What was it like for the first time when you settled down and were living together and you weren't always on the move?
Melissa Nanavati (22:39.896)
So actually only occurred about four months ago, was the first time that we've been in our house consistently, because we were on the move until January of this year. And we spent three months in Alaska, one month in Iceland, two months in Norway, time in India, Chile, and then he was gone in Antarctica. So we were on the move literally until January of this year. And I would say the really
like fun and cool thing about finally being grounded here was that we were able to create in terms of business together. And it was finding our new rhythm here. honestly was a little bit strange for a moment. And we started really putting down better routes, setting up our home in different way and being more intentional with how we co-create alone time. Because as somebody clearly who enjoys a lot of solitude, being so together all the time now actually started to build up.
potential friction. So we had to get really intentional. I would run errands when he was at home and giving each other enough space now that we weren't on the move.
Tim Doyle (23:47.936)
that feel like very spontaneous for you? like, is there like a lot of structured guidelines around that? So it's, is that why?
Melissa Nanavati (23:57.326)
think that there is a lot of structure around it now, especially. So we created very intentional times and certain times of the week. the big thing that we do that I always recommend to other couples is we do, our check-ins are probably more frequent than most. We do nightly check-ins of, hey, what do you need tomorrow? What does that look like? So we're very fluid in how we operate in terms of that. But there are some overarching structure about how we create that space. And I think that's one thing that couples don't talk about enough.
Tim Doyle (24:00.726)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Nanavati (24:25.036)
Because everyone, matter how extroverted or introverted you are, needs a different amount of recharge time away from other people. Some extroverts would probably say, almost need none. But regardless of where you fall on that spectrum, opening up that conversation in a way that doesn't make your partner feel like you don't want to spend time with them is really important. And that affirmation around, hey, this is what I need to be my best self versus I need to be away from you.
Tim Doyle (24:53.506)
So taking a step out of your life and looking at your work now, how did this transition from, hey, I'm Melissa, this is kind of just how my life has unfolded, and this is the type of relationship I have, and this is the structure of my relationship to, this is actually gonna be a part of my work. Did you always have the conscious?
understanding and belief of yourself of like, this is where you like wanted to be like in terms of creating content and business and stuff or was it kind of a natural unfolding of you set up this relationship with Akshay and we have a very unique structure that helps us that could help a lot of other people. And then that just took a natural process. So I'm just curious to know the backstory behind the work rather than
Just your life.
Melissa Nanavati (25:50.498)
Absolutely. And for me, you know, I had always been somebody who was obsessed with the personal growth biohacking for close to 10 years now. And for me, this really unfolded very organically, but I did always have this inner knowing of I ultimately want to do something in the personal development space. I didn't exactly know what that was, but my background, came from 15 years in the marketing field as a consultant working in-house textbook writer, but
was a part of me that always knew there was something missing in the work and missing in the literature that I had read and consumed and poured through. And this was sort of the culmination of everything that I really enjoyed. And I found myself actually on a stage three weeks into our relationship. He had been invited to speak at an event and I was asked to come up on stage to essentially explain myself how we were making this work with everything he was doing.
So was getting invited to speak about this from literally the third week of our relationship. And there was such an invitation here to talk about the things that we were doing that I realized, you my favorite way to crystallizing is through writing and speaking. And we've actually been working on an outline for a book since pretty early in our relationship. And now talking with editors and potential publishers, it's really clear that there is a gap.
in the work when it comes to specifically speaking to people that are ambitious, high performers, high achievers, and how they can have a relationship that really supports their performance in their work. And so it was a very, like, natural and bizarre unfolding to be asked to speak about our relationship so early. I mean, even the coverage while he was in Antarctica, a lot of the articles, like in Times of India, I was doing the interviews, and they were more curious, to your point, about our relationship in some ways than the expedition itself.
And we realized we really went through a pressure cooker type experience in our relationship in the best way and came out of it feeling very peaceful. And there was something unique about what we were doing that we were excited to bring and to share to others.
Tim Doyle (27:54.24)
Like you mentioned, you wrote a textbook, you wrote five textbooks actually. How do you think that mindset from that past work helps you now?
Melissa Nanavati (28:05.206)
It really forces me, not forces me, but it's the reason that I am so evidence-based and I really always look for beyond my own lived experience, making sure there's neuroscience backing, evolutionary biology roots in the things that I'm sharing because the one thing I always want to be careful of as somebody who came from the textbook industry and for anyone who doesn't know, the textbook industry, every single claim you make has to be backed by research. Everything has to be backed by
another source. And so that process of always sourcing the things I'm saying, it does actually in some ways keep me from saying things that are just from personal experience because I always want to make sure there is a scientific validation of the thing that I am sharing because I also don't want to mislead people because I know I'm not recommending that everybody gets married in less than six months. I know that my path is radical in many ways, but it's also given a lot of, and actually love to say this to you, battle tested wisdom.
in terms of we have been through the fires, we have actually put all the things that I share in practice in our relationship.
Tim Doyle (29:12.426)
one of Akshay's main things that he talks a lot about is dualities. And obviously, you're on the textbook side of things, would you say there's kind of a duality between the two of you in a way in your frameworks of not saying that Akshay is like making stuff up, but like on the philosophical wisdom experience side. And obviously, you have the experience side as well, but also being very research data based.
Melissa Nanavati (29:28.368)
You
Melissa Nanavati (29:40.31)
And funny enough, he's actually very research-based when he's in the writing space as well. He speaks from a lot of lived wisdom. And I think that our dualities more exist, I would say, in the day-to-day. And we actually have a lot of similarity in the way we think and approach things when it comes to presenting information. But where our duality really lies is our internal dialogues. Very different. And we'll often have a similar experience in...
Tim Doyle (29:47.873)
Mm-hmm.
Melissa Nanavati (30:06.348)
have a completely different take. A great example was when we were hiking up Mauna Kea in Hawaii, which is one of the tall, I believe it's the tallest mountain in that area, about 15,000 feet. And we were on this hike and he just let me have my internal dialogue because we knew that the way each of us was going to get through it was going to be completely different. His internal dialogue was suck it up, get up the mountain because he's a Marine. And for me, it was one step at a time. This gets to be easy.
And so I think we have a lot of polarity and duality when it comes to our internal dialogues, the way we do life in the day to day, even my office, bright white, his office shuts all the windows as dark as humanly possible. And so I think we have those in the right ways, but also a lot of similarity in how we approach things.
Tim Doyle (30:53.218)
That's really cool. You've talked about how it's important to create a foundation that doesn't allow for any cracks to form building off of that. And I guess to give a little bit of a devil's advocate perspective, I think maybe that could be a little unhealthy to think that like cracks won't form or like it's not possible for that to ever happen. Obviously it's never something that you intentionally want to happen, but how do you think people navigate those?
situations when cracks might unknowingly come up, especially for a high performer when they might even take it a little bit harder when a crack comes up.
Melissa Nanavati (31:34.722)
I think your point is absolutely well received. And the reason I love to use that language of building a foundation where cracks can't form is it simply orients you to holding yourself to a higher standard. And I think that that's always the goal. You when we say things like conflict-free foundation or things along those lines, the goal is not to shame someone if something happens or goes wrong, but it's the idea and the goal is to unlimited what people think is possible in a relationship. If suddenly you think,
maybe it is possible to build a rock-solid foundation, then you'll aspire to have more hard conversations. You will bring up issues more consistently. And I think that's why that language is intended to be a little bit polarizing and to activate the thought and that pause of, could I do better? And to your point of how do you react when some cracks form, because we are human. There is no such thing as perfection and we don't claim to be perfect in our relationship either. There's plenty of times when
you know, little issues have maybe festered for say a month and then we finally talk about it. But if we always set the goal and set what I like to say in some ways is the impossible goal. Akshay talks a lot about things being on the edge of possible. I like to think of that in terms of relationship. Could we strive for a quote unquote perfect relationship and then be happy when we land somewhere pretty high up? And so the goal with that language is really just to give aspiration.
And I think when someone does have those cracks that forms, remembering that the path to growth is not a straight line, two steps forward, one step back, and that's okay. The whole goal is to keep you oriented to continue to do better and not to then end up in a downward spiral in your relationship.
Tim Doyle (33:20.834)
Do you think a part of your work, whether you're consciously doing this or unconsciously doing it is like showing people that you actually can't consider yourself a high performer if you're not able to have this avenue of your life, you know, performing as well? Like, like if you can be a high performer and all the externally facing stuff, you know, great. But like, if this is really
you know, not working for you. Like, can you really call yourself a high performer then? Is that how you see it at all?
Melissa Nanavati (33:55.534)
Actually, it's not. I think that I was somebody who was considered a high performer for a very long time before I have the marriage that I do now. And I think that the goal is more to show people that your relationship can actually be such a source of strength. And I think there was a stat that said about 86 % of millionaires are married. And to that point, I think that this is just another tool in the arsenal.
to be more successful in your work life. Not that someone isn't a high performer without a relationship, because again, I think that puts that frame and lens that someone's incomplete if they don't have relationship. I don't believe that. I think it's a, are 100 % full when you enter your relationship and you get to be 50 % happier. And it's not about this is a source of lack or now you are not enough, because I think there's plenty of that language out there. The goal is to show people that...
you can have a relationship that supports you in who you are and it's not going to detract, it's actually going to be a force multiple.
Tim Doyle (34:54.498)
What do you think some of the biggest shifts were that you saw within yourself on the professional side when you did get into a relationship? And I guess the things were like, wow, I really just started to progress here in ways that I necessarily wasn't.
Melissa Nanavati (35:10.018)
The first year that we were together, even with traveling, was my highest revenue year in my business. And I think that force multiplier was really that there was a certain level of peace and contentment that I felt at home. And I think you operate better when you feel peace at home. I think it made me just a better consultant. It made me better at my work. I also increased my capacity because now you have someone in your life.
you don't really increase your capacity until you're full. And so when life started to fill up and get more busy in many ways, I increased my own capacity. And I think there's an old saying too that, if you need something done, hand it to a busy person. I think the same is true with a relationship. Now you're adding in all this time, effort, energy you're spending with this other person, but it's energizing you if you're in the right relationship and you are really committed to making it last for the long
So you have more energy, you have more capacity. And so for me, it was a combination of feeling safer at home. I showed up better in my work life. I also felt safer to make big moves, to start the work that I'm doing now. And when you have that level of safety and security at home, then you can really charge forward.
Tim Doyle (36:26.474)
If you knew back then what you know now about relationships and this entire blueprint, do you think you would have?
been able to put it into action right away. And this is kind of, guess, building off what you were just talking about earlier. I do think there is some truth to like being in a season of your life where you're just like, Hey, like, I just need to be focusing on myself and like building myself in different areas. Do think when you were younger, and I guess, in that personal building stage, you would have been able to add this to your plate as well and put it into action?
Melissa Nanavati (37:07.672)
think my goal with this work is always that, even with the book that we're creating and the course that I'm working on around peak performance love, it's really about how can you be 5 % happier? The goal is not to have someone go through this blueprint and try and implement everything. I think that that's unrealistic, regardless of what season you're in. But I always say, take what serves you and leave the rest. If a little bit of what I'm sharing, a little bit of what we're delivering through the work that we're doing,
can make you better in 5 % in one area, you'll see that lever shift. So for me, when I was in my big healing stage, I agree, there's absolutely seasons to life. I talk about this a lot in my work too, that there's seasons of a relationship and the importance of being able to communicate when is your season of maybe it's just focus go mode, like at the beginning of our relationship, okay.
was busier than most people can even begin to fathom. Between raising $1.1 million, training, gear testing, all of those things were full-time jobs. Theoretically, he could have said, I can't do a relationship right now, I need to focus on myself. But he also saw it as a force multiplier. He saw the level of support I would be able to offer. Now, had we both been striving for things that magnitude at the same time, would have been more challenging. Maybe wouldn't have had the same effect, but we were in the right seasons to come together. And so I think if I had been in that phase and I'd gotten this blueprint,
I would have definitely been able to implement some better best practices when it comes to the dating phase and being more discerning. So I do think that this would have been helpful. think that you don't have to be whole to start dating. Yes, there are going to be seasons where you are more in that strive and I just need to focus on myself. And it's not saying that everybody should try and date all the time. You need to be within yourself, feeling in a good enough, grounded enough state where you can show up for another person. But I do think...
I could have been better at the dating process or it would have been a light bulb switch for me to say, maybe I should wait a little bit longer to date and finish working through some of these triggers. So it's hard to say, but I think that this information, my goal is just to get it into the hands of people that are heart performers. So whether they're in a season to date or be in relationship right now, that information can be percolating in the back of their mind so when they are ready, they're able to engage from much more empowered place.
Tim Doyle (39:24.226)
Diving deeper into that framework that you were talking about how when Akshay was in the season of pushing for Antarctica, like if you were in a similar season, it would have been a lot harder for that relationship to exist. Have you ever heard from people, obviously high performers, like you said, synonymous words, ambitious, think another word that you can really say there is competitive. Have you ever heard from somebody
Or have you seen it where like, this person is jealous of their partner or like me and my partner are competing with each other. And if so, how do you think people navigate that?
Melissa Nanavati (40:07.318)
Yes, is the short answer of I have absolutely seen that. And I think that those are times where one person is not feeling supported enough. I think if you're in a place of jealousy of your partner, I, a, it usually speaks to there's some, room for growth there, because I always say that the trigger is the gift. When you are triggered in your relationship, when you're feeling jealousy, when you're feeling these emotions towards your partner that aren't supportive, that's a place to look. Am I pouring into myself enough?
Am I feeling supported enough also? And that's where I think a lot of conversations early on in relationships and what I always share with people, especially coaching clients that have been in those moments, is to sit down and have the conversation of what season are we in? And to go even a layer deeper and say, in moments of stress, here are the things that make me feel better. Here's what I need. And here's my commitment of what I will also do for myself.
Because if you're starting to feel that sense of competition with your partner, that is a red flag to me. That is a trigger to say, oof, I need to look inward and see what I'm doing and make some shifts. Because I talk a lot about the different types of green flags. And I think one of the unique green flags for high performers is being with somebody who does not compete with you, but celebrates your wins like they're your own. And if you are somebody who initially your relationship started that way, and now you're starting to feel that sense of competition as time goes on,
it's usually an indicator of feeling unsupported. And so that's where those conversations I think can be really helpful of discussing what season you're in and making commitments to each other about what you will do for yourself and what you will do for them.
Tim Doyle (41:46.178)
You're working at this really, really interesting intersection here where I feel like a lot of the time we keep these two camps separate high performance and relationships, or at least for me personally, I've really never seen this talked about much or somebody who is really dialed in on this intersection. With that being said, are there other people that you look to for like, that that person resonates with me a lot, very similar work or
Do you kind of feel like you're just playing your own game in a sense, which is also could be a very cool feeling.
Melissa Nanavati (42:20.696)
think it's more of the latter. I think that there's a lot of incredible advice and dating and relationship coaches out there that are doing phenomenal work. But I think specifying down to high performers and the really unique challenges is not something I've personally seen. But the people I look to are high performers that are in very happy, healthy marriages. I love talking to people whose relationship has stood the test of time.
and seeing what they did, how they moved through challenges. Because as somebody who is very evidence-based, I like to look at the stories, and we're even including them in our upcoming book, stories from other couples that are at the top of their game and what they're doing that's different. And it's through these conversations that I've actually really seen and crystallized a lot of the things we're discussing now. This is not just from my own lived experience. It's so much from talking to couples who...
have had successful marriages that are 30 plus years and kids and even kids with autism and how they manage from an emotional standpoint, but also from the business standpoint, how are they doing all the things they're doing? And I really admire the, especially the couples that have kids that whose love has stood the test of time, they still feel like they're in their honeymoon phase and it's 30 years later, they're holding hands, they're laughing, they're giggling, they're flirting with each other.
And I think it raises the bar for all of us.
Tim Doyle (43:43.842)
That was my next question for you actually. Have you factored in family building to your framework or is that still something that you're exploring and hashing out?
Melissa Nanavati (43:54.658)
That's definitely something that's been factored in, especially in interviewing a lot of couples who have kids. And the majority of the couples that we will reference in our book outside of our own story all have children. And the importance of structure, 10 X's when you have kids. So not only structure for the kids and how you navigate, but for your relationship so that you don't let dating your partner fall by the wayside, which I think is the reason, one of the core two reasons that relationships
especially among high performers, end up fizzling out or having problems over the long run are from a lack of novelty and a lack of feeling desired. It's also the two core reasons that have been cited for why people cheat. having that eye to, right, how are we still continuing to have new experiences as a couple, even with children in the picture is so important and continuing to make your partner feel desired, not just like the mother of your child or the father of your child.
because there's a lot of shift in identity that occurs from my research of couples when they end up having children. And there's often even a lot of jealousy between the parents. One parent is focusing on the kid, the other person feels neglected. And so again, having that eye to how can I be creating novelty and making my partner feel desired on a regular basis and creating structure around it.
Tim Doyle (45:18.498)
a big believer that the relationship with yourself is the most important to develop first. How do you think the relationship with a strong partner is able to develop that relationship with self more?
Melissa Nanavati (45:35.648)
The idea that your partner is not responsible for all of your needs is so important. And I think that when you have a strong driven partner and you start to feel off in some way, looking first to yourself is so critical. I could not agree with you more. The relationship with self, you cannot love others if you do not love yourself, not truly and not fully. And I think that it really begins with the relationship with self and having a partner.
is essentially an act of a mirror. When I even watch Akshay, he's really gotten into all of the recovery work. He's back in his meditating zone just this past week even. And it's a reflection of, okay, am I doing all of my recovery work and work on myself in the way that I want to? And vice versa. When he got back, he saw me meditating and doing different things for self care. And I think that it's so important to remember that your partner is simply a mirror.
And if something's really triggering you about the way they're operating or what they're doing, it's an invitation to look at, I doing those things? And there's an element of radical ownership, I believe, that's so critical in relationship, that you don't show up 50-50, you show up 100-100. You take complete ownership and responsibility for the impact of your actions on your partner and vice versa, and for your own happiness.
Tim Doyle (46:56.854)
And I think a big component to that, like you were saying, and going back to the jealousy thing as well, leading with curiosity and observation and not shying away from it, where, all right, like, let me ask internal questions about this. let me literally meditate on this and see what can get unpacked because that is, obviously if it's bothering you, it's something that you need to go deeper towards rather than shying away from.
Melissa Nanavati (47:04.59)
Yeah.
Melissa Nanavati (47:22.956)
I could not agree more. And curiosity is one of the four core virtues we really talk about in relationship. And we both believe that curiosity is number one. Never stop dating your partner. Always assume positive intent and ask questions. Never make assumptions because when you stop being curious, you start making assumptions. And that's when the real disconnect happens. So if you can stay curious about your partner, if you can have the courage,
to bring things up when it bothers you and to have really open conversations and to receive feedback, you're going to have a pretty incredible relationship. And then the other two that we talk about are presence. So being fully there when you're with your partner, because I can't tell you how many couples don't go away for four months on training expeditions, but end up feeling really disconnected living in the same home. And so that level of presence and truly being there, setting down your technology, having a true conversation with your partner, expressing gratitude is so critical.
And the last one we talk about is playfulness and that element of play and humor. Actually, I often says shit talk is his love language and I will banter is mine and we are making fun of each other laughing all day long. No one would know that from the outside, but the level of play we have in our relationship is what allows us to move through some pretty hard stuff to and laughter and lightness because life is heavy enough.
Tim Doyle (48:26.626)
Haha.
Melissa Nanavati (48:44.926)
And the last thing you want in your partnership is just to emphasize how heavy it is, but it should be a source of inspiration, joy, levity, and keeping an eye to how can it be a little bit more playful can really enhance a relationship, especially for high performers who live in stress mode. And being able to shift into that different energy of being playful and light is so powerful.
Tim Doyle (49:07.874)
think that's a great place to wrap up. A concluding point of if you want a loving relationship, just talk a little bit more shit and that's what's going to get you there.
Melissa Nanavati (49:15.278)
Exactly, and that's how you get through the hard times.
Tim Doyle (49:20.982)
Melissa really enjoyed the conversation. Where can people go to see more of your work and everything that you're doing and if they want to connect with you.
Melissa Nanavati (49:31.18)
If you want to connect with me, finding me on my website, my Instagram at Melissa Nonavadi, and I know my last name can be hard to spell with a lot of A's in there. So if you type in peakperformancelove.com, it'll take you to my website, Instagram, and Peak Performance Love on YouTube as well. I share daily videos there regarding dating and relating as a high performer. And then you'll also be the first in the know about our upcoming book, Peak Performance Love.
Tim Doyle (49:59.328)
Awesome. Great talking with you today, Melissa.
Melissa Nanavati (50:01.848)
Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's such a pleasure.
