Outworker
Stories of healing, personal development, and inner work. Founded on the idea that the relationship with self is the most important to develop, but the easiest to neglect, Outworker shares conversations aimed at helping you develop that relationship.
Outworker
#078 - Josh Czuba - Rewiring Dopamine Habits Into Creative Power
Josh Czuba returns to explore the creative blocks, dopamine loops, and identity struggles that come with building online in real time. We get into the shift from content to storytelling, how addiction can be reframed as a superpower, and why the answer to chronic consumption might be creating work with soul. From health challenges to artistic rebirth, this is a brutally honest look at the tension between ambition, addiction, and authenticity in the digital age.
Timestamps:
00:00 How Life Has Changed Since Our 1st Conversation
08:05 Healing Powers Of Creativity
16:07 Shifting From Content Creation To Storytelling
22:48 The Consumption Of Self Leads To Creation Of Self
31:14 Challenge-Catharsis-Connection
39:35 Being A Connective Force Among Isolated Humans
50:00 Growing Up On Stories, Not Content
53:40 Reframing Addictions & Bad Habits
1:03:38 Connect With Josh Czuba
Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.
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What’s up outworkers. Josh Czuba returns to explore the creative blocks, dopamine loops, and identity struggles that come with building online in real time. We get into the shift from content to storytelling, how addiction can be reframed as a superpower, and why the answer to chronic consumption might be creating work with soul. From health challenges to artistic rebirth, this is a brutally honest look at the tension between ambition, addiction, and authenticity in the digital age.
Speaker 2 (00:00.088)
Josh, welcome back to the show.
Thanks for having me, man. I'm really excited.
You are the second repeat guest, but the first repeat in person. But what I find so cool and what has been so special for me for podcasting is that.
In person. Let's go.
Speaker 2 (00:20.354)
This wasn't at the start, but I've really gotten into listening to my own episodes now. And it feels like I'm listening to two different people, even like really recent ones. Like I just listened to my most recent one and it feels like I'm listening to a conversation between two separate people. And I'll listen to myself and be like, man, like I sound like really good here. Like that's me. But it's even more special when I go back to like,
on the bike.
Speaker 2 (00:49.588)
ones that are way back. Cause it's like, wow, like that's a different person. and I actually listened to the one that we did a year and a half ago today. And I'm like, man, that is two different people. feel like you would probably feel the same way. know, repeat guests, but not a repeat person. I'd feel like I'd say. So I mean, what has changed for you over the, guess, like the last year and a half, what feels different? Like if you were to.
Crazy. Crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:09.646)
That's a really good.
Speaker 2 (01:19.03)
Listen back to that conversation today to now, like what feels like it's changed most for you.
It's funny because you don't know in the moment. Like right now, it doesn't feel like a lot has changed, but comparing to that point in time, a lot. Moved here to Austin. My network, my circle of people around me expanded dramatically in a really good way. I met a lot of other people who were on a similar path as me and I surrounded myself with them. I went through several months of creative block slash
transitioning between phases in my journey or whatever, which has been hard. still in that. But yeah, I think I just got like three levels deeper into the game that I was only just starting to dip my toes into when we talked. And it's funny, I would have to rewatch it, but I bet there's like so much like certainty and...
You know, like this is, this is what it is, you know, like just very solid beliefs with not enough data to really back them up. Now I compared to where I was then I have so much more uncertainty.
I'll it because there were a few parts in that conversation, like I said, I listened to this earlier today. And there were some parts where you were like, still like, I'm figuring this out.
Speaker 1 (02:47.51)
I'm glad I was being for real there as well.
Yeah, but curious to know, what, what are those creative blocks or phases been like for you?
At the time, I was starting to get some attention online and build some traction around mental health and talking about cheap dopamine habits and how do we engage meaningfully with really addictive technology. And that was kind of the main thing that I talked about. Around, you know, this time last year, I was really just tired of talking about the same things over and over again. And I realized my personal creative itch or whatever, like, you know.
what I really wanted to do was not being exercised at all. was working a sales job and with a couple other people in the space, was learning a lot and that was really great for me, but was just tired of doing the same thing over and over again. For some reason, couldn't bring myself to explore new things or just stay consistent with posting anything. I went through that for a long time and only now am I starting to come out of it a little bit.
huge like long view perspective where, you know, I want to hold myself to a certain standard, but I'm not rushing to get a certain result. you know, like I, I basically built an audience ripping these short talking head videos where I would just spout off an idea off the dome, totally unscripted. I think people responded to the immediacy of it. Like you could tell that it was stream of consciousness and I think they were good, but I just got tired of doing them. And now, and and
Speaker 1 (04:23.95)
I guess my soul or whatever, the part of me that is truly a creative was like, dude, try making something really good. I want to tell stories or try something else. So now I'm just taking the luxury of experimentation, which has been, I think, really important. And then the time will come where I have enough clarity to apply some intensity again. But yeah, still figuring it out. A year and a half later. Always figuring it Right?
I mean, I'm curious for you as well, right? Like you've been consistent with this project all the way through. How has it changed and gone up and down for you?
I feel like what the beauty of podcasting is, is that it allows you to be a generalist and just explore a ton of different topics and a ton of different sort of realms, whether it's psychology, whether it's like creative and storytelling, whether it's like neuroscience type stuff, whether it's just like general health and wellness type stuff. So it feels like I can kind of attack
like a ton of different things rather than just feeling like I'm in one lane doing thing. Yeah. And a lot of it seems like somewhere for you, it's just following my own natural intuition and curiosities with it, because that's where the rawness and the real energy comes out. Like if I just had a niche style podcast where it's like, this is a, this is a podcast that is going to
you know, help you XYZ grow your business, you know, $10,000 each month. Wow. That's just like a very specific type of topic where, know, when people ask me, what's the podcast about? Like to a degree, I'm like, I don't know. Like I'm just following my own natural curiosities and intuitions. And it seems like people are vibing with it. So I'm just going to continue doing it. Um, because I feel like when I look at podcasts,
Speaker 2 (06:25.868)
you know, and hosts, it's kind of like, that's just what they do. And like, you want that purity behind it. But I have, it's actually funny. The first time I said this was to your friend Tristan at the gym. And he asked, what's the podcast about? And I said, I'm just trying to make people feel something. And the reason why I had that thought is because I've had three past guests tell me like,
cool.
Speaker 2 (06:53.006)
I don't know why I came on this show. It just felt different. The outreach or just what I looked up, it just feels different. And I'm like, that's what the show's about. I'm just trying to make you feel something. don't know, each person's gonna have a different viewpoint of how a specific conversation or me as a host makes them feel. So it's like, I'm just trying to make you feel something, especially within today's day and age where it's hard to feel.
Like something like actually like feel something like pure like it's hard to do that and it's like that's just what I'm trying to give to people
100%. I get the vibe that you really love this and that it's important to you.
Yeah, I mean, is my craft, this is my artwork, so to speak. And that's actually something I wanna talk to you more about because I feel like, like I never considered myself a creative person growing up. Like I was just like play sports, of like creativity, like I'm not a creative person. And I feel like we have such a romanticized view of what creation is because we just think of it as being a paint.
just like being a painter or like making a film and like, just like, it's gotta be this like beautiful masterpiece that we create. And something that you, which I'm so grateful for because you were, I think the seventh episode. So you created like this pillar for the show actually, which is like understanding creativity as healing. And you, was like, whoa. Like I was like, yes, that's so true. like,
Speaker 1 (08:22.351)
no way.
Speaker 2 (08:30.412)
I never created that correlation just like specifically within those two words as well, like creativity, healing. And that's a theme that I've tracked throughout the entire course of the show with a lot of guests where it's like some form of creation, like played into their healing, whatever you want to like understand what healing is. And I actually, wrote a few of them down and I just want to read them all. So first one.
I'd love to hear it. Let's go.
David Kaczynski, you know who that is? The Unabomber's brother.
No, the name sounded like- Uh-oh. I have to watch that one, that's crazy.
Yeah. Holy shit. So I had him on the show. he's the Unabomber's brother who wrote poetry to navigate the after that entire. Grace Weather, she's this girl who was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor when she was really young, like 10, 11, 12 years old. my God. Thankfully, you know, still alive, thriving. But like when she was a young girl, she was always like, I want to get into entertainment. So she got diagnosed, was like told.
Speaker 1 (09:14.793)
my god, I can't, yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:35.086)
stay in the hospital, she moved to California to get into the entertainment world and now has a media agency. Ian Manuel was in solitary confinement for 18 years and writing poetry is literally what kept him sane and gave him the hope that he would be free one day and now is a free man. Amy Downs, Oklahoma city bombing survivor who found peace in gardening after that. James Francis, know, tried committing suicide.
uh, went into a mental institution and macaroni arts and crafts was the thing that like gave them some sort of like, Oh wow, this is incredible. And then this is the most wild one. Gidan Lev. He was a Holocaust survivor, is a Holocaust survivor. I just talked with him a few weeks back, was in a Nazi concentration camp from the ages of six to 10. uh, one of the things
that those Jews had to do within that concentration camp was put on performances for the Nazis entertainment. Because I guess a lot of the Jews within that camp were artists and performers. And he said people would ask like, could you possibly have done that? Or how could those performers have possibly done that? And they said it was actually the exact opposite where it gave them their humanity back. Where it's like, as long as we're...
performing and creating, like we have our sense of identity back and not just an object. Wow. But I'm so grateful for you because you were the one who allowed me to connect that thread throughout all these guests and there's a lot more. So curious to dive deeper into that in terms of that relationship between creativity and healing for you.
Yeah, I'm sure.
Speaker 1 (11:27.532)
Yeah, that's so awesome, And again, props to you for having all of those conversations, different people, you know, and that's really, really cool. I'm glad to hear that. For me, the realization kind of smacked me when I was 22, early, yeah, and it's towards the end of college, and just felt like my life was built around cheap dopamine consumption. That was like where I was getting my day-to-day meaning.
And for the longest time, I thought that that was the big problem in my life until I realized, that's the symptom of not having something more meaningful, more fulfilling, more exciting. So I need to make creative work the most exciting thing in my life so that then I'm not turning to distractions constantly. So I'm not coping, escaping, self-soothing with these things. That was where it showed up for me. And it makes perfect sense because really good creative work is cathartic.
You know, you are expressing something. you're, trying to use it to, work through an issue. Yeah. A hundred percent. And you see that across disciplines, right? Everything you just mentioned, all of these different practices from macaroni art to performing arts, which, you know, is my thing. like, or, or, one of my favorite writers, David Foster Wallace talks about fiction is like, you're, you're, really are, are going to it to heal yourself in some way. And so you, when you're looking at different.
artists and you see the same idea pop up again and again, you're like, okay, there's something there. So that's where first, and then I think when we talked last year, the basic thesis was, okay, creativity should be the replacement to consumption. We know the internet's not going away. We know the technology is going to stick around. Social media is here to stay. Cat's out of the bag. So instead of throwing our phones in the ocean, let's rewire our relationship to it, which is exactly what you're doing, what I'm trying to do.
You're not trying. Sell some credit.
Speaker 1 (13:25.014)
Yeah, no, I know for sure for transparency where I'm at right now in the process is now I'm actually putting into practice what I was talking about a year and a half ago. Yeah. So I built an audience, I think talking about this idea of what we should do. And now what I'm doing is I'm not talking about what we should do. And I'm actually just trying to do it myself. and what's really cool, what's been so validating is I put out some long form, short stories and I'm getting the same, I'm getting the right reaction. I'm getting people like it, people engage with it, which is
amazing on its own. just so, you shouldn't need it, but it's nice. But what's really cool is people are saying, you like helped my attention span. that's not a self-help essay. That's not how to build habits. That's not, it's fiction. And it's like not even really, it's not fiction with like a clear cut metaphor at the, right below the surface, which you see, and I think is great. It's like self-help media with just wrapped in story. This is more just like,
just fiction and it's going to have morals and themes wrapped up in it. like, it's not, you kind of have to work to get it. Anyway, publishing that, performing that, getting that out on the internet and then getting those comments has been, has really validated the hypothesis and it's like, okay, great. So right now I'm super excited because I feel like I have enough clarity to apply some gas. Like, okay, this works. Now apply effort and intensity and consistency.
You know, cause the training plan works. know, you've got your solid push pull legs program. That's definitely going to work now. it, you know.
All the wholesome, helpful self-improvement content is great, but my psyche demands a shadow side to be expressed. Fiction presents a way to process your most personal experiences, problems, and unanswered questions. It's cheaper than therapy. But it's so awesome that you...
Speaker 2 (15:20.44)
you listen to yourself. Like you didn't, like you were growing a following, you you had the notifications coming in of likes, comments, this is great stuff, but you listen like, this doesn't feel real to me anymore. This feels forced. Yeah, I mean, it feels like you've shifted away from content creation and like, just like the generalized way we understand things and more so of storytelling. Yeah.
How's that shift felt like for you?
feels great. Like I said, there, this is coming on off of months of not really doing much and feeling, but like suffering a great deal because of it. You know, like I really have punished myself internally for not moving fast enough or not doing enough things. but it feels really, it feels I'm actually excited about it. You know, it's still difficult, like, which I'm also grateful for. There's always resistance. That's a common thread, which we should get into.
But the work itself, I'm excited to put out there, which I wasn't excited for a long time. was like, I'm tired of saying the same thing. Now it feels great. It restores some hope and faith in the general public that it's getting a response. It's like, okay, if there's deep storytelling or whatever that is good,
then people will respond to it. It's like not everyone is purely addicted to brain rot. It's like they actually are starving for some good stuff. And if you give it to them, then they will watch it and they'll like it.
Speaker 2 (17:04.578)
Yeah, I would imagine that it feels good to a degree, you know, not to play the identity game, but to feel like, I feel like I'm an artist and my art is getting validated and recognized here rather than me just being a social media content creator.
Totally. It does feel great. When I moved to Austin in January of this year and was surrounded by some of the most talented artists, filmmakers, storytellers that I had ever met and it was was amazing. I was like, okay, this is the kind of energy I want to be on. Where it's not just content creation or conversion or not that any of that's bad. just wasn't enough for me anymore.
It can be soul psych.
A little bit, but there's an art to that as well. it's important and I want to get across that there's no, you need both. You absolutely need both and there's no moral hierarchy to not making money or anything like it. Forget that. It's like, they're different skills. And if you want to be really good, you got to have both. Something I learned from a couple of my mentors. But yeah, but to your point about the identity thing, was like, yeah, like.
Really what I am most fired up by, at least right now in this season, is more of the storytelling and art, I guess. But I want to be careful of not attaching to the identity. This is something a lot of creatives do, or everyone does, where you make writer in your headline, right? And it's like, I'm the fiction writer now. And if you go through my journals of the last six months to a year, it's so much endless ego blabber about
Speaker 1 (18:42.606)
Am I this or am I that? Because you have this hope that if you decide that, oh, I'm the short fiction guy, then suddenly you'll have clarity and you'll be like, okay, this is who I am. And you won't have to deal with anxiety and resistance. The realization is like, it's just all work. you know what I mean? Like it's all resistance. It's all difficult. Keep your identity small. It's a Paul Graham thing, if you know him at all. Keep your identity small. Like forget who you are and who you wanna be and who you wanna be seen as.
Give yourself to the craft, give yourself to the doing of the thing, and then let that speak for itself.
Also somebody else, mean, Steven Pressfield, you've talked about resistance, so would love to dive deeper into that. What does that resistance feel like for you?
He's great. you explored his stuff?
His book, War of Art, I mean, changed the game for me. Same. Honestly, he was the reason for why felt like I needed to get into podcasting. Because there was such a resistance to break through the wall of getting into this. And I'm like, if I feel this much internal angst about something that I haven't even done, there must be something here that...
Speaker 1 (19:39.233)
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (19:55.328)
I need to go back to that healing and creative. Like there's something here that needs to be released within. And just like get in the ball game. I feel like that's the best. That's the best stuff that you create as well. When it's just like, when you click, you know, click create or like you post something on YouTube and right away it already is like, this feels incredible.
Yeah. That's a really cool point by him, which is like the more resistance you feel, the more significant the calling is. So I've been feeling a lot of that. But yeah, his takes are just his whole book, his whole philosophy I resonate with. And it's just, it's a no BS way of looking at it, especially if you want to take your craft seriously in transitioning from amateur to professional. It's like, no, forget about like you, yes, account for discomfort.
You will feel it for sure every day. Every day there will be resistance. You won't want to do it. The professional just shows up at the desk. You say your little prayer to the muse or whatever you have to do. Everyone's going to have their own routine and then do your pages. That's it. Every day.
So fast and he's so cool because he like you said, he's just such a grounded guy. He's just such a normal guy with it.
He balances the, think the spiritual side of it with the no BS practical side very, very well, which is important because it's so easy to get lost in the la la la la, you know what it's just, if I feel it, then I'll do it. It's like, but he's also very spiritual at the same time and is talking about these invisible unconscious forces that I think are very much at play.
Speaker 2 (21:30.52)
something I want to dive deeper into and going back to the healing side of things. So like we've been talking about consumption, chronic consumption, something like really bad. I feel like when somebody goes through something really tough or like they just get broken down, like I've understood that actually as consumption as well. And what happens is it's like us, like as ourselves, like
as a person, we are the one that gets consumed. Like our entire being just gets eaten up, consumed. And like we've been talking about, especially in our first conversation, like with chronic consumption, like, okay, how do you counteract that? You counteract that a lot of people can with some type of creative output. And I think like when the consumption of self happens, like what leads to that is the creation of the real self. Like when you just.
what you're like, you start from a place of nothing again and like, okay, let me create like what's really me. And it's something that we spoke about briefly in our first conversation, but like, feel like the thing for you, like what consumed you was your Crohn's disease and your subsack article was incredible. Like just diving deep into it. like, for you, like on a very literal and physiological sense, like your body, like
sure.
Speaker 2 (22:54.446)
kind of consumed you and you said, it is the story of how my body tried to kill me, how it attacked me from the inside out, how it turned me into a walking skeleton. How did that entire experience, but then also, I guess, just navigating that on an ongoing basis, how does that play within your whole creative process?
Yeah, great question.
It was a very sudden episode, very dramatic, just in my life. When I first graduated, when I graduated high school and it came up all at once. Symptoms had been brewing, but it got really bad really fast. And I had to drop out of the first semester and just trajectory changed. Interestingly enough, it's actually not as significant of a, I don't know, it didn't, I would say it has not been the biggest.
problem of my young adult life, interestingly enough, and I'm really grateful for that. It taught me a lot about resilience and yes, building yourself back up. made health and fitness and holistic wellbeing much more at the forefront of my attention all the time. In terms of ongoing struggle, it's just really, there's a certain trauma that happens from a really serious health concern popping up out of nowhere that you...
really didn't have any control over and you also take good care of yourself. Before it, I would work out and eat well and whatever. Then it's still, I am in the hospital with my intestines inflamed. It's frustrating to have to take medication every two weeks and feeling like I'm dependent on it. Again, I take really good care of myself and I attribute a lot of my well-being to that because I want to be in control. But I take the standard
Speaker 1 (24:47.36)
medication for it every every two weeks and I hate that you know I just psychologically I don't want to be dependent on something like that right now I'm not going to mess with anything because I'm really grateful for my for my health
Yeah, think, but definitely it's like...
I wanted to express that. There were certain themes that the Cron's episode amplified that now I see coming up in my fiction and storytelling. So there was that actual personal essay about the experience that was, I could just pull from that. And that was the reason, I think in some of my writing there, it's a little bit dramatic maybe, but that's because the reason I wrote that is because I felt compelled to write and tell a story. And it's like, here's an experience that I can very quickly pull from. I don't need to make anything up. can actually.
you know, just write what I know and do that. The themes from that episode that keep coming up are like this weird addiction to self-improvement, like the dichotomy in my own brain of self-improvement, self-destruction, going through these weird cycles of like intense, not even that intense, but like obsessive self-development. I'm going to work out, I'm going to eat only Whole Foods. I'm going to just obsess over
cosmetic fitness improvements, I wanna look shredded, I wanna be on point and dialed. And then for whatever reason, then spiraling into this insane, equally disciplined self-destructive arc where I'm engaging in all these cheap dopamine substances like a for real drug addict would, like the way that someone who's addicted to heroin or something else would engage with their substance, but like it's just junk food or internet, whatever it is, all kinds of things.
Speaker 1 (26:34.38)
And just kind of cycling between these two phases in intense unsustainable cycles, both of them. I would say that it has been one of the major struggles, if you can call it that, of my young adult life. Again, it's like it's a very privileged problem to have, but relevant. The Crohn's kind of amplified that a little bit, or made me aware of it in a way. So those are all things that I'm exploring in the stories.
I forget what the original question was, but does that make sense? I wonder, cause you have also got a back thing, right?
Yeah, yeah, good memory. Yeah, I'd have a lot of bad chronic pain, chronic back pain. So I didn't relate to obviously the specifics of what you were going through, but the overall arc of the story, I was like, all right, this is me just within a different arena. that's always just why I was fascinated about it. And yeah, when I was reading it, I was like, yeah, I gotta ask him about this again.
Totally. It's what I think it's very similar, right? Cause I'm, you know, you work out, you take great care of yourself, but that still tracks with you surely. The, the back injury, like it's something you, have to work through.
No, I mean, it's, it's, it's not something that I've had to, like, it, it hasn't like changed my life from the perspective of me feeling like I need to manage anything. yeah. Yeah. I've moved through it. I mean, it's funny. like,
Speaker 1 (28:04.792)
So you've kind of moved through it.
Speaker 2 (28:11.35)
A whole like mind body like healing program is kind of what helped me. like, so what it's really fascinating though, like what I've learned about my body is like physical manifestations like happens throughout my body. So like, if it's not my back, sometimes it'll be like my hip or like my jaw or like literally as we're doing this right now, like I've had like this weird brain fog for like the last 10 days or whatever. Interesting. But like, I know it's not like, because something's wrong. It's kind of just like, this is just how my
make sense?
Speaker 2 (28:41.09)
is feeling right now. So I know not to be reactionary and fearful. And in a way, it actually, I've turned it into a benefit because I take it as a signal of, this is your body trying to tell you stay relaxed, stay present, and don't be stressed out. Obviously, easier said than done when you're feeling something that you just feel a little off. But yeah, I mean.
That was kind of the launching pad, I would say. So I like, find it fascinating that like for your Crohn's disease, like that wasn't like the thing that you point to that like, that was kind of like the thing that kind of recalibrated things for me. Like for me and my chronic back pain, like that was the launching pad for like, like I was saying that was the consumption of self in the chapter one, but then it led to the creation of my real self for like chapter two and so on.
Yeah. And you're still like only at the beginning, you know, the crazy thing. yeah, I mean, it was, it was a, it was quite the dramatic way to start college and then, and then COVID happened, you know, it's like, yeah, it's been a journey.
Yeah, I did.
Speaker 2 (29:56.204)
You talk about this framework, I find really interesting challenge catharsis connection. yeah.
Yeah, where was that from?
social media posts, sort of like a three step process that people can walk through.
Do remember what the post was? the, no, it makes perfect sense. Challenge catharsis.
The thing was like have a type of physical challenge that you do. Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:23.896)
Yeah, yeah.
They, it's sound, I don't remember exactly what it was, because I feel like I come up with a lot of frameworks. All of this comes from my personal journal of like, honestly coming out of a dopamine hole or coming out of a state of over consumption, spiritual malaise, numbing, self-soothe, trying to numb the pain of reality, avoid the necessary pain of living.
Do feel like you've become over time, like more mindful of that and like sort of being able to detach from away and like not get, like when you get into that numbing stage, feel like it doesn't consume you anymore and you're sort of like able to be more mindful and be like, like I'm getting back into that sort of path again.
Honestly, I'm still working on it. there will be, the mindfulness is the answer. Like you nailed it. Like that's what it is. Is when you, at every stage of the process before that, where you get triggered by something or whatever, where you feel the need to turn to trigger substance or something that's gonna numb you, the mindfulness is the answer. Is to like, like you pointed out with your, whatever symptom you're going through, feel it, pay attention to it. Don't freak out, don't react.
Don't try to make it go away. Let it sit. Understand that your body is a dynamic system and it will work itself out if you just relax for a second. It's hard though, because if you're in a state where you're like already kind of primed to react and go to the next thing and click, click, click, click, click, click, it's easy to just immediately numb. Anyway, the framework for coming out of a dopamine hole or a state of.
Speaker 1 (32:08.778)
over consumption is you do need some kind of emotional catharsis. You need to cue yourself back into a state where you're like seeking some type of challenge. It's going to be really, really scaled down. Like it's clean your room. It's take a shower. It doesn't have to be a cold shower. Like take a shower, get dressed, make yourself feel like a human being again. Show yourself that you're trying to like.
don't underestimate the cleaning of the room though. yeah. Like I did a deep clean of my apartment a couple weeks back and I was like, this feels incre-
yeah, it's insane. The old Jordan Peterson, right? It's true.
In a way, it feels like a creative release.
totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, a little bit. mean, I think a really cool thing about the creative lifestyle or whatever is like you are training your attention to be present in like the world around you. And you can do that by folding your clothes and then cleaning the kitchen or whatever. Nora Efron, who's a screenwriter and just one of the greats. She said, if you're not happy doing dishes, you're not happy.
Speaker 1 (33:21.646)
It's like, yes, doing the dishes can be a creative act. It's like that's part of it. It's like, are you training your attention to be present and really doing the thing right in front of you? If you're doing that, that's exactly what's happening when you're writing, when you're podcasting, when you're making music, when you're playing a sport. It's like that's the, and that's not what you're doing when you're numbing yourself, when you're trying to distract yourself. So it's that, that's the opposite function that we want to train ourselves to be in more of the time.
It's harder, know, it's like, especially when you're surrounded by sources of distraction. So I think this is really the work that lies in front of us, modern humans. And Anna Lemke, Dr. Anna Lemke talks about this all the time, which is funny because like this has been on my brain for the last couple of weeks. I haven't actually read her book. You would love it.
Have you read her book?
She's fascinating, which is really cool about her as well. And what I shared with her when I talked with her, there's a deep like personal reflection in sort of a memoir component within her book that I wasn't expecting. I thought it was going to be deeply research, science, evidence-based, which it is, but it's also based within stories of her own patients, but then her own personal experiences.
Romance novels,
Speaker 2 (34:40.654)
Okay, so you know about that. Yeah, fascinating. was like, whoa. Yeah. I was like, what a fascinating, I guess, addiction to have. Absolutely. Like, do erotic.
100%. It's cool, cause like it can be anything. David Foster Wallace, right? He's one of those guys that like, if you're a 20 something dude, like he's one of those guys that you like base your whole personality around for a little bit. So I'm going through that phase. But he was talking about all this stuff in fiction before the rise of the internet and social media. So he kind of predicted it as well. his way of thinking about it,
really resonates with me. It's like, it's kind of an American thing. So, and Lanky talks about dopamine nation, right? It's like, we live in an addictive culture and nation. And he was onto that, right? It's like, what are we, like it's built into the fabric of how we live our lives is this need for more dopamine being the molecule of more, you know, we need to numb ourselves. need to, we deserve, I deserve to be euphoric and experiencing pleasure every second that I'm alive. Just kind of that being our
default conditioned state. So I've been, you know, I've thought about that a lot over the years and will sometimes still fall into a place where that is, it's so anxiety provoking, but like that's your whole consciousness is how do I get a hit or feel pleasure or just not feel pain or not have to think for the next second. And it's also kind of a rush at the same time, but it's just so, I think that you realize that even as a selfish animal,
in your most basic state, it's actually not what you want. Like there's a more satisfying way to live. It's like, do you want pleasure or do you want satisfaction? Do you want stimulation or do you wanna be full? Do you wanna be satiated? That's a helpful distinction for me.
Speaker 2 (36:30.39)
Yeah, I mean, think I shared this with you in our first conversation. mean, dopamine and chronic consumption, whatever you want to call it, is part of the reason also why I created a podcast. Cause I felt like
Speaker 2 (36:47.316)
I was walking the path of, like I do not like how much I'm consuming, what specifically I'm consuming. How do I get out of this or how do I reroute myself? And it felt like, okay, I need something. Like I need something that's gonna keep me grounded where I can do this. And I felt like podcasting was that for me where, okay, this thing's gonna force me to read more books. Like this thing's gonna force me to.
have more conversations with people. It's like, okay, when I do have conversations with people, I wanna make sure that like, I'm doing a good job here. Like I'm coming to this conversation like well-informed, whether it's on somebody's book or their work. And I think that's where going back to like, okay, people need creativity, but like having some type of project that you can do on a consistent basis. And another one of your sub stack articles,
Real quick, I just want to point something out. What you just described there in terms of starting the podcast is the vehicle for the challenge catharsis connection. Yeah, exactly. Right? There's the challenge of the intellectual labor, having to read the books and choosing to do strength training for your mind. There's the catharsis, which is the creative experience, the satisfaction you get from making something of your own and discovering something. There is release in that. And then the connection, it's an inherently connective thing.
Actually, yeah, there's a point about the connection that I want to touch on as well. It's something that you said within that Instagram post talking about connection. say, train yourself to be a connective force among isolated humans. What's that mean to you?
Yeah. Well, I'm still figuring this one out as well, but yeah, right. We'll be back here. Still figuring it out. It'll be true. the, mean, we're lonely. We're isolating all of the problems we're talking about, dopamine consumption, addiction, chronic consumption. They're very, very lonely things. And I would, it seems kind of obvious that it's part of that is, is a coping mechanism for the loneliness. You know, would, would people be
Speaker 2 (38:27.096)
Please forgive me.
Speaker 1 (38:51.814)
scrolling chronically if they had community built into their lives? not. It's a feature of what we're going through right now. And the creative work is helpful because you have full control over that and obviously facing challenge and building discipline and choosing to face friction like Dr. Lemke talks about, these are all important things that are within your control right now, but we can't ignore the connection piece of it.
Admittedly, like this is what I struggle with the most as well. I like people, I like connecting with other people, but it's, realized last couple of years, like, I'm conditioned to be alone. like, you know, my default, I'm a social person. consider myself an extrovert, but I'm like conditioned right now to like spend all of my time alone. And I'm still working through that. To be a connective force is to take the extreme ownership mindset and just apply it to connection and say, okay,
the same.
Speaker 1 (39:49.524)
I'm not going to wait for a third space to be built. I'm going to initiate because that's the thing people hate doing. In whatever, in romantic settings as well, that's hard. But that is a skill. You have autonomy. You can build the skill of reaching out, of starting something, of saying, you want to go do this thing or do that. Again, I don't do this as much as I could and should.
I'm like the exact same way. Probably. Obviously, I don't know what it's like for you, but probably like even worse for her. feel like I'd be curious to know where you think that conditioning comes from for you.
The loneliness.
Or I guess just like you said, like you feel like you're conditioned right now, like to just like being in a lone state. Like do you feel like that comes from, or guess I won't give, I'll just let you answer.
Why? I don't know. if I, what it seems to me is that number one, it's not built into my life as it stands. I'm not, I don't have like a traditional job. And even if I did, don't think people get that from their jobs really, like from what I can tell. There's not, if you don't go out of your way to program it in, you're not spending a lot of time in a community. You are.
Speaker 1 (41:11.842)
The conditioning for me is like, go achieve something, go build something of your own, go start a business, go build a social media personal brand, go do your creative work, become something. And it's just a very solo pursuit. You don't need anyone else for it. You just have yourself and the internet and your wits and figure that out on your own. And then you publish it to all of these people who aren't in the room with you. And it's not even real. But it's like, it's the American idea of
accomplishment and ambition and self-soothing and numbing and pleasure. All of it individual. How do I make myself the individual either successful and more successful than other people or yeah, right, right, right. Exactly. Or, extremely like comfortable and safe alone in my bubble of isolation. When I'm self-soothing, it's a very, I don't want to be around other people. I don't partially cause I'm kind of ashamed.
percent.
Speaker 1 (42:10.166)
Right. Like it doesn't drive with the whole like ambition success thing, which is also individual. But anyway,
I had an incredible conversation with Dr. Dan Siegel. works at UCLA. He's the co-founder of, I think it's called the Mindsight Institute. And he wrote this book about, it's called Interconnected, which is how, especially within US culture, we just have this understanding of self as like understanding of like just one, whereas like self means communal. And he thinks it's...
Yes.
Like our illusion of understanding self as just one is the root cause of all problems. I was like, people have asked me, you know, what's the, your favorite conversation or the best podcast that you've done. And I'm like, oh, like it's tough to say, like, they're all so good. When I had that one, was like, I was like, this is the most important conversation. Cause it goes to like everything that you're saying.
That resonates with me. It seems to be, it's one of those things that I've heard from so many different people in different ways, in different fields with slightly different words, but the truth is essentially the same. It's like this hyper individualism self at the expense of everyone else without thinking about anyone else is just gonna make you fundamentally miserable.
Speaker 2 (43:39.778)
And we have such a romanticized view of it in the U.S. because like I was saying, the 1 % the lone wolf, like the alpha, like it's just, yeah, it's just like, this is a good thing. And then you learn like, no, like that's actually two degree. either holding me back or yeah, this is kind of a weakness of mine.
Yeah, right.
Speaker 1 (43:57.742)
Yeah, it's,
But like I said, I deal with it.
Oh yeah, yeah, you're right. Like we are entrenched in it.
I also feel like it comes from...
Like you as well. I'm a very social guy like yeah to have a podcast like you got to be a soul Like for me, I feel like it also comes from
Speaker 1 (44:16.584)
You would have to, yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:23.648)
Like you said, conditioning, feel like I'm conditioned just like I enjoy my solitude. But then also like from a work component, I always feel like, it's going to take me away from my work or like I want to be focusing on my work.
Which is valid, right? So I think there's seasons and there's a place for.
It's tough though, like when you, when that season just become just like my whole life. It's like, it's been a long winter. Yeah. Right.
Yeah, the winter never ended. The winter arc.
But yeah, it's an interesting dance because I do think there's some truth to that where you're like, especially when it comes to this work, like I put a lot of time and effort into this and I'm like, like it feels like this is what I'm supposed to be doing, but like, yeah, it's just interesting. And I don't know what the language is. I guess like similar to you to like sort of like fully understand or grasp that, but it's, you know, it's fascinating.
Speaker 1 (45:24.418)
The good news is we're gonna have several decades to figure it out. Because I think we won't get to where we need to go until we do. Until we know how to live more communally and to think more communally, we won't, we're gonna deal with all of the societal issues that we have. Big take, but it's like the problems that you see on a society level,
reflect what's going on with the individual. That's Carl Jung and I believe that to be true, right? So when you see a nation that doesn't, or just a culture, civilization, whatever, that doesn't, that's got all of these systemic issues that it's not addressing and it seems to be very self-centered and just focused on endless growth up into the right at the expense of everyone's wellbeing. It's like, okay, that's happening at society-wide, but you're also gonna see that in the individual. That's what I think.
individualism and hyper-focus on self creates. So until we mature and work through that as individuals, we'll feel it as a society. then as climate impacts and all of the downstream effects of this individualism start to pop up, it's the perfect necessary training ground for building those ideals into our practices. Because you got to take care of the people around you. When tropical storms and
all this stuff starts complicating life for people. Okay, now it's, the people on your block taken care of? Is your family taken care of? You start thinking a little bit more communally out of necessity. I'm not trying to romanticize it, because it's gonna be very difficult. I think we're gonna, we will, within our lifetime, we will see the physical consequences of an instant gratification culture start to play out. I think we're seeing it now.
So this is our task, right? In the micro, figuring out our own habits, but then over the course of our life, we will experience a cultural shift, I think, away from instant gratification. Because we'll realize the humans, that's actually not what we want. This just doesn't hit really, you know? We'll realize that the AI content, as an example, that is designed to be hyper stimulating and hyper viral.
Speaker 2 (47:38.19)
Yeah, it's so fascinating.
Speaker 1 (47:48.59)
It's not actually what we want. What we want is something that's made by a human. We want a letter that's been written to us, both literally or just metaphorically, a piece of art that feels like a letter because it's not perfect and it's not the AI stuff, but it's like, a human with a nervous system made that. I get it and I like it. I'm being idealistic, but I think that's what we'll see.
Dude, I have had so many thoughts on this, especially within the last few weeks. I mean, one, it's especially why I'm like so bullish, especially long-term on podcasting, because it's just so raw. And like you were saying.
Like I said, when I listen to my own podcast conversations, I'm being invited into something that feels real and raw. And I can feel the energy between two different people. I also had this thought the other day where, and it's going to your work with fiction and storytelling and getting more so into writing than content creation. And I guess it's funny because...
I guess you couldn't say it for like the very young kids growing up today, but like our generation and generations past, like we didn't grow up on content. We grew up on like stories and storytelling. It's like people, that's why people love stories is because like in our young, like mine, that is what we grew up on. And that's what feels good. And like, that's what like continues to feel good into adult life.
child.
Speaker 1 (49:18.734)
Yeah, that's a really good point. you, it's kind of scary when you think about it, like, Oh, like, like Jen alpha, like a good chunk of them have been had a pretty strong and consistent dose of that. Um, which we didn't have until at least we had a little bit more development. I was like 14, 15, know,
We grew up on, okay, what are the, you know, like the best storybooks that just get passed from generation to generation.
What did you, what were your favorites as a kid?
Honestly, I couldn't even tell you. Like I was not like big into reading or writing or anything. Like I hated it. I was like, oh my God, this is not for me. I mean, it's actually like really funny. Like my parents, my parents would be like, you got to read 15 minutes each day. And I'd be like, okay. Like I would be like, all right, sounds good. The clock on our oven would be one minute, one minute.
faster than the clock on our television set. So I'd be like, okay, like that's the time or it'd be one minute slower, whatever. And be like, so it'd be like, instead of reading 15 minutes, I'd be reading 14. Yeah, but it was 15 minutes. I was like, it's been more so into my young adult life that I've gotten more so into reading. Like I picked up.
Speaker 2 (50:44.778)
It's actually really funny, like a couple weeks ago I picked up, because all the reading that I do is pretty much just for the podcast. Which is great. Which is great, but I was like, but similar to what you're saying, was like, want something that's fiction, that's not just like feels like work, even though I find everything that I read so fascinating. So I picked up Ho's best of Edgar Allen Poets, short stories and poems.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, love it.
But the funniest thing was it felt like a dopamine hit of like opening my phone to Instagram. was like, this is remarkable feeling. I'm getting this feeling from buying a book. And like you were saying, that's what we need to get back to. And I find more joy in holding a book than I do in holding my
Really?
Speaker 1 (51:26.274)
Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1 (51:35.532)
totally, yeah. I mean, it, 100%. You have to, for anyone listening who wants, like you have to de-stimulate a little bit. Cause if you're really, if your main diet, information diet is just the hyper stimulating stuff, you gotta like rest for a second. Yeah. So that then the book does hit. Yeah. But that's really cool.
Yeah, but that's also, I mean, getting back to the podcast and thing, like I know dopamine plays a huge role within this where, when I'm reaching out to people and I'm like, who's going to respond back and be like, Oh yeah, like I'll come on your show. Like, Oh, that's a nice dopamine hit, but like it's in a way that feels like it's going towards something that I like. All right. There's a project that I'm building on rather than just like, all right, let me put like my dopamine hit towards social media. And you have this interesting sub stack article.
And the reason why I like it is because the title, you say the title of this article is your addiction is a modern day superpower. And I love that because it's a reframing of like not seeing these addictions or bad habits of like, Hey, here's X, Y, and Z of how you get rid of this and why this is bad. But it's more so of an alchemizing process of like, okay, we're still, you're still you.
Yeah. And now we're just going to tweak things and recalibrate rather than like, you know, just a race and take out white out. Yeah. Um, would love to know more of your thought process there, especially with helping people where it's not so much of like, I guess, like changing who you are, is it's more so just like I said, that outcomeizing process.
It's a really great way of putting it, the alchemizing. It's like you're channeling the same traits that are destroying you into how they actually want to show up. comes, it came from Dr. Lefke again. He mentioned in her conversation with Huberman about people who have these addictions tend in her estimation seem to have a much higher need for friction. And I was like,
Speaker 1 (53:38.828)
Okay, well, that's great. Like that's good. Cause I feel like I have an addictive like way of being a little bit. don't lean on that, but like.
I am a hundred percent as well. I don't want to, yeah, same as you. Like I don't want to lean on that as well, but like, feel like I got very lucky with, like I was addicted to the gym. Absolutely. Like I was obsessed with it and like that entire lifestyle where it just consumed me from, would say probably like the age of like 18 to like 23, 24. And I kind of like grew out of it. And there was like a little bit of a phase where it's like,
I feel like I don't have that like energy or like that pizzazz for something anymore. And that's what the podcast led to. I got it back, exactly. I got it back. But it feels like in a better way. I'm more like mindful of it. But like, yeah, similar to you, I feel like I to a degree got like very lucky that like I found to a degree like a good type of addiction. Yeah.
We're like-
Speaker 1 (54:42.924)
Sure, if you're gonna pick one. Going to the gym, podcasting is two of the better options. Yeah, well, that essay was like realizing that if I just applied the same, like what we're talking about is like an intense way of being. It's like an intensity for life, to kind of binge on life. And so just choosing to
engage that intensity with different vices. That's it. If that's true, that people with an addictive tendency need more friction, then okay, then let's get that friction. I'm not the most intense guy in the world, but I enjoy taking cold showers and I enjoy working out and I feel really alive when I'm engaged in these things.
And then also then there's the creative work. So my goal now is to get my hits to gratify myself from writing fiction or from some expressive art of some kind. I've, what I, the theory right now is there's a bargain involved there to make that the case. And the bargain is you can get your gratification and your dopamine or whatever your pleasure from the page you can, but you have to give up all of the other ones you, because otherwise it won't hit the same same thing where like you're not going to
be fully engrossed in Edgar Allan Poe if you've been scrolling brain rot for 10 hours, because it's just, you're not primed for it. You need a break, you need to rest, you need to reset your pathways because it's less stimulating. It is more fulfilling, more satisfying. That's going to leave you full. You will be, you will feel good. You won't feel like you constantly need more. So that's a worthy trade-off. Anyway, give up all the other vices. Don't have other distractions in your life. And then if you're working out and you're eating low stimulation, whole foods and you're sleeping and you're not.
constantly distracting yourself then yeah, you'll be fulfilled from the page. But it takes a certain amount of buy-in period. I'm still early in that. But that's the theory now. So I'm trying to aim my addictive tendencies at this thing. That also applies to, I have an anxious voice. I just have a very constant and sometimes overwhelming inner monologue. One of my...
Speaker 1 (57:02.508)
favorite writers and asynchronous mentors, Chuck Poloneck, who wrote Fight Club, a number of other great novels. He pitches fiction as a great way to channel that. If you really get engrossed in a story, there we go. I love it. I'd love to get into that. It's a great vehicle for that anxiety because if you don't have a project like that, I think podcasting, I don't know, maybe similar.
I do my research people.
Speaker 1 (57:31.406)
It's a way to apply that addictive, anxious voice that's always going to be worrying about something. Yes, you should probably meditate and we should figure that out on its own. But if you have to pour it into something, me, fiction, think that's a good way to do it.
Well, yeah, similar to you. Um, what I learned was, and I knew this going into it to a degree in it. I further like hash this out, but I was like, Hey, don't allow podcasting just to be gym to point out, like, allow this. Be like, Oh, this is the thing that just like, Oh, this is going to like, I can just get so addicted and obsessed over this where like, just become fully consumed. I'm not like,
taking care of myself the way I should be, allow this to be a creative project and a creative release and part of that healing process, I guess you could say, but don't allow it to consume you and just completely take things over and go into those type of addictive tendencies.
Yeah. But then to be so real, dude, like there's a part of me that's like, I kind of want to, you know what mean? Like I kind of, like, I don't know. Do you follow Zach Pogrob at all?
Yeah, he's here we are on the shot
Speaker 1 (58:46.484)
I know, no question he will. I haven't met him myself, the embodiment of like- Obsession. Obsession and like good dopamine addiction, but like also it's-
Yeah, he's the
Speaker 2 (58:58.954)
Like the perfect word is intensity. It's like an intensity to...
Yeah
Speaker 2 (59:06.003)
I don't even know what the word is, just like to the nth degree.
Yeah. Now let's recognize here, that's that American ideal of obsessive individual success, right? And I just, it's worth recognizing this kind of dissonance because we're both feeling it, right? We're like, we both want that. Totally. And we're both so seduced by that, like for real. And I'm not ashamed like I am, like I like that. Right? And also I recognize, yeah, we're going to have to sort through that. there's
probably some like there's some shit on back there. Yeah. There's like some trauma probably. I don't know. like there's like we in a world like. Yeah, it's instant gratification. It is a dopamine addiction. Is it better than scrolling and internet porn and binge eating and crack cocaine? Yeah, it is. I would choose that over that and I want it.
Haas and Tuggenpol.
Speaker 1 (01:00:01.72)
think there's probably something good to be said for having a season where we spend time there, because we'll find ourselves and whatever. We'll make some pretty awesome work. We just, can't forget about this side of it. You know, we have to somehow stay in touch with that. If it's a meditation practice or if it's just connecting to that big S self that Pressfield talks about, you know, the self that is outside of your own sphere. I think if we can, if we can play both games, that's a dangerous kind of ambidextrous quality.
think the biggest thing is kind of just finding the others that are like, I think that's all what it comes down to. It's like, can just have that, that shared alignment and shared wavelength so that, okay, like in a way, like, okay, I'm doing this, but I have somebody else doing it with me within their own lane. we, like for me, it's podcasting. For you, it's fiction writing. And it's like, okay, let's.
both go down these two different lanes, but we're going to go down these lanes together.
100 % man. Yeah. And I think service also, it helps me a lot. realized this in the depths of the creative block was like one of the, gets me out of that anxious, immobile feeling is like, I need to do something for someone else. The first content I ever made for the internet was like helping to solve a problem that I was feeling acutely myself. I don't know how that plays into the podcasting game, but like,
just wanting to make something for someone else, creating as simple as making a gift for them. If it's like a story, know, something someone else will like, or if it's solving a problem. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:01:44.174)
Somebody gave me an incredible review on Apple podcast just because I had created a podcast series on my chronic pain stuff and then that person started just following me and then got more into this podcast and was like this stuff is helping me so much and that goes to that service and was like wow like and it just goes to that natural
Yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (01:02:13.422)
Creativity behind it and that rawness and that realness behind it and like I said just like trying to make people feel something Josh it's been incredible talking with you Where can people go to learn more about you your work everything you're doing?
Period.
It's so fun.
Speaker 1 (01:02:28.846)
I'm just the main platforms really, Instagram, YouTube, TikTok. My name, Josh Chuba, Substack, those are my main ones. Spotify also. a perfect world, I just post one thing everywhere. Anyway, yeah, that's it.
Josh will have to do it a year and a half from now.
I know, still figuring it out. Still be on the same thing. Awesome. Awesome, yeah.
