#088 - Kelly Gores - Your Pain Is Trying To Heal You Artwork

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#088 - Kelly Gores - Your Pain Is Trying To Heal You

November 12, 2025 • Tim Doyle • Episode 88

Kelly Gores believes pain isn’t something to avoid — it’s often the portal to who we’re meant to become. We dive into the story behind creating her documentary Heal, the spiritual surrender it required, and why so many people stay sick in a system built to manage symptoms, not address root causes. We unpack the difference between recovery and true healing, the power of language in shaping our experience, and how the body holds a deeper intelligence we’ve forgotten how to listen to. This is a conversation about alignment, trust, and remembering what wholeness actually feels like.

Timestamps:
00:00 The Relationship We Have With Our Work
05:07 Acting As A Stepping Stone
10:27 Storytelling vs. Content
15:43 An Evolved Relationship With Success
18:47 You Have To Surrender
22:34 Heal Isn't What Kelly Thought It Would Be
26:36 What 'The Medical System Is Broken' Means
32:55 The Medical System Is Built Off Storytelling
37:09 The Problem Is The Portal
42:47 The Next Evolution In Mindbody Care
43:37 My Experience With Chronic Pain
50:02 Going With The Flow Of Life
52:21 You Are Not Broken
55:36 Healing vs. Recovery
59:09 Do You Need To Suffer To Become Enlightened?
1:02:03 Give Yourself Grace
1:04:26 Connect With Kelly Gores

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Tim Doyle (00:06.584)

I'm not going to lie. think you might be the guest that I have been most excited to have on. And that's not a knock on anyone else. I mean, I've had the opportunity to speak with some truly incredible people who do fantastic work and have really interesting stories, but it's just that your work resonates on a very, very deep level with me personally in my life. And I think that's where I want to start is the relationship that you have with your work. mean,

I know that this work on a deep internal level lights you up and it gives you this fuel and this energy. But when was it in your life that you realized, hey, this isn't just work that feels good personally, but this is important work that needs to be done?

Kelly Gores (00:55.182)

well, first of all, thank you. I'm very honored and flattered. That means the world to me that my work resonates so deeply. So thank you. Yeah, I think I, when I started learning about energy and, you know, manifestation and how everything is frequency and...

not just matter and how there's this field that's invisible but connects people over time and space and how we vibrate affects the information in the field and what we magnetize and send out, et cetera. I started paying real close attention to how I felt doing certain things and I get lit up when I'm seeking to understand consciousness or the

human potential, you know? And so when I hear a miraculous healing story that kind of backs up the science and the research and the mysticism that I've read about, I'm just like, my gosh, this is proof, this is evidence, like this stuff is real, you know? So I've just, it's been about since 2007-ish, it was around the time like I learned to meditate, I was doing yoga, I was going to...

Michael Beckwith Spiritual Center and I was just learning all these things and kept feeling better and better and better and more expansive. so, and around the same time, people were coming to me going, what, you know, tell me what you eat, what you do, like, how are you, how are you so happy? Really? Like people in LA were just like, you're so unbelievably happy, you know? And I was like, is that, is that like a rare thing? And so anyways, I just,

I'm a caring human like you are clearly. And when I feel empowered, I wanna share that what lights me up and what empowers me and what gives me hope with other people. And that's kind of been, don't like, you know, I don't sit around thinking like, oh, my work is important. I've gotta save lives or do this. I just literally follow what lights me up and knowing that like it,

Kelly Gores (03:15.166)

it has helped other people. know, because so many people, life is so complicated and so many people are suffering and there's, you know, toxic environments that we're dealing with, seen and unseen. It's really hard to navigate life. even as I just, I'm kind of my own guinea pig. And as I try to figure things out, I try to share because it's just hard. It's hard to be human.

Tim Doyle (03:40.704)

Yeah, and I do think in a way there's a tight overlap between the two. Like the work that lights you up is the important work because I don't think there's enough people in the world that are necessarily doing that. Either they haven't been able to access it and they don't know what that work is. And that's a continuous journey to try to find that or for that work to find you. Or there may be people who they do feel like they've found it, but they live within a society or maybe a programming that

that they're keeping that light at bay. All that being said, though, I do think there is some benefit to having a season or a chapter of life where maybe you're doing work that that doesn't light you up, because when you eventually do find that work that does light you up, you feel it that much more. you're like, boom, that's something that I felt that I haven't felt before. And I think there was a chapter within your life with that when it came to

acting like you thought that was going to be your thing, like you thought you were going to go down that path. Can you talk more about, I guess, that mindset that you had for acting? And maybe it still had a lot of benefit within your life because maybe it wasn't necessarily the thing, but it was the bridge to the

Kelly Gores (05:00.374)

Yeah, totally. Every thing is a link in a chain that leads you to where you're supposed to be. My ex-husband, it's weird that I'm bringing him up in this interview, but he had this quote book and one of his best was like, sometimes you gotta go to the wrong place to get to the right place. And yeah, so I would say from a very young age, I would watch movies and...

feel in my body, how they moved me, inspired me. I'd watched the same movies over and over, like Stand By Me and Goonies and Never Ending Story were like my growing up movies. And I was like, I wanna do that. I wanna move people in that way, you know? And then I also had this like real desire to experience, you know, a thousand lives within this lifetime. I would watch a period piece and I just felt like, God, I wanna live in...

you know, Great Britain in the 1700s or whatever, you know? So, or like I would study Mayan civilization and, you know, and Incas and like pre-Columbian civilization and Central and South America. I'm like so fascinated and connected for no apparent reason. And I'm like, is it a past life thing? You know, so I figured acting was a way that I could like try on many different lifetimes in this lifetime.

Interestingly, I would be much freer at home performing, like making stuff up and making these like home videos or whatever. And then I'd get in front of, you know, a casting director or like a director or whatever, and I would get really self-conscious and I would try to do it right. I was very intellectualizing everything. so it was like a stressful journey, you know, because I really wanted it, but I got in my own way because of the way I was programmed and conditioned. So I...

I think I would be a much better actor now, but then once I learned enough, like I got far enough down the road of experience, I actually enjoyed getting the job, like winning the job, because I'm competitive and athlete. But then when I was on set, the waiting around, like it wasn't magical to me. And it caused, because I was so self-conscious, it stressed me out. And I was like, why am I doing this? You know, like, so eventually I started learning about these things I talked about before in spirituality and consciousness.

Kelly Gores (07:26.22)

and I would be so free and lit up when I was listening to like Abraham Hicks or Wayne Dyer or Eckhart Tolle. And so I just started paying attention. I was like, I am getting drained by acting and getting lit up by this stuff. And so it was easier to let go of something I invested 20 plus years in. But like you said, I had lots of experience on camera, on sets, which led me to have the confidence to know how to tell a story, you know? And...

to be on the other side of the camera. So it did give me this great foundation and my passion is still there in storytelling. I'm just not an actor in the movie. I'm writing the story.

Tim Doyle (08:07.436)

find it fascinating how you said that you felt like you got in your own way at times. And I guess like the thought or the hypothesis that I have, and I feel like I've felt like that within my life at times with doing different things. I almost felt like on an unconscious or subconscious level, like your body and your psyche knew like, hey, this isn't the thing for you. So we're gonna try to get in your way.

Kelly Gores (08:30.222)

Yeah, don't. Yeah, exactly. it's something I'm, we'll try and forever crack the code on is you hear all these stories about people that like, whether, you know, prolific authors that were rejected 150 times from 150 publishers and they just kept going. Or actors that are like a multi-academy award winning and they were told they could never act and just by their acting teacher and you know.

all these stories like at what point do we continue persisting because we know in our bones and at what point do we like pay attention to the energy and go, okay, there's something trying to push me in a different direction, you know, I haven't cracked that code yet, but yeah, I definitely feel like life, the universe, God, however you want to say it, soul, spirit. And also I just had this experience at this darkness retreat like

our bodies, our bodies are intelligent and like given the space it, it you're healing automatically. And just like on the macro life is pushing you down an avenue. Like you are here for a purpose to express gifts. And if you're not listening to life or if you're not listening to your body, you're going to get whapped over the head until you do and you get back on track. So I agree with you.

Tim Doyle (09:55.532)

I like how you said you still, you were able to take your love for storytelling. Like you were able to develop it and then that's what you took with you from acting. And I feel like within today's day and age, when it comes to the creative process, it looks a lot different than 10 to 15 years ago. And social media has been great where it's turned to anybody who wants to be a creator.

into a creator and anybody who wants to release something from their mind or their body into the world, you're able to do that. But I think where that gets a little soiled is that we get into this short form content creation, just sort of like speed and quantity rather than depth. And I feel like to a degree, like we've lost storytelling, especially from like a language standpoint, like it's become

content creation and being a content creator rather than being a storyteller. What are your thoughts on all that?

Kelly Gores (10:56.558)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Gores (11:03.288)

Totally agree. just, I have a six and a half year old daughter and you know, obviously YouTube is a thing and like these YouTube content creators, like, you know, these young multimillionaires and it's just like wild to think about. And it's entertaining, but it's like jarring to the nervous system if you're really tuning in, because it's just like shouting and moving and you know, and it's gotta be more as our brain, as we're evolving or devolving, whichever way you want to look at it, it has to be faster, louder.

crazier, you know, or, and then like shorter. So I had heard, I think on Instagram, ironically, it was, it was like some study, neuroscientific study about child's brain development and how is, you know, you really need to keep rotating in these longer form story tellings with arc, like the old Disney movies and everything. Otherwise their brain's gonna be so.

lopsided to this one and their attention, it's just gonna crush their ability to hold attention on something. So it's good to mix it up. So I was so grateful for that little piece of research because I was like, okay, and then when I explain it to her, she gets it. So I'm not just like taking YouTube away. I'm like, this is your whole brain is not going to develop unless you watch this other longer form. So I agree with you. And yeah, I feel like

everything, you can't get deep in that short, fast, attention hooky format, you know? And I'm hoping, I feel intuitively like everything has an equal and opposite reaction. like, I think we're seeing, you know, people, this globalization and all these supply chain issues, and it's like, it's making people come back to this like local seasonal communal village style.

you know, communities and same will be with social media. People are going to start to reject it because they're going to tune into how they feel and they're going to know that they're getting sick and they're going to want to reconnect with nature and the natural rhythms of life. So I have hope for humanity, but yeah, I think I definitely and also like the one thing I'll say about social media that I don't like is everything is pushing these content creators to be more sensationalized and fear-based.

Kelly Gores (13:26.636)

And that's just like not the way I operate or my messaging, anything, anything. I don't care if it's like ultimate truth. If it makes you feel, if it instigates anxiety or fear in your body, it's not the right message, just period, end of the story. So that I'm not into at all. And I will not succumb to that need in order to get more followers. like, I'm just going to share things how I share with the intention of helping people feel better and heal and like,

be more present at the expense of missing the algorithm. That's fine with me.

Tim Doyle (14:03.362)

That's why I love your work. I media is created today to get a reaction out of you. It's meant to get some type of quick reaction out of you or make, you know, it's meant to convert like, how is this converting rather than tapping into that deeper knowing of just like, okay, I'm trying to make somebody feel something. So getting into the work with your documentary, but also I guess tying it back to

you're acting and I guess the mindset that you had with acting like you were trying to make it as an actor, like that language of, okay, I'm trying to make it like you had some success, but not to the level that you felt like you were gonna get. And

Kelly Gores (14:45.762)

Yeah, nobody listening should go and search what I've done or watch it. It's not worthy. It's not worthy. I mean, that's kind of my claim to fame. I played Sharon Stone as a young girl, you know, that's like all you need to know. I screamed. I got hired for my scream, which I think is hilarious. That was my talent, the screaming. But yeah, I mean, if you want to watch scissors, I think you should. It's a classic.

Tim Doyle (14:49.24)

We shouldn't watch scissors?

Tim Doyle (14:57.217)

Ahaha

Tim Doyle (15:11.468)

I'm curious to know like, so like that mindset that you had for like acting and trying to succeed, like when you shifted into this new type of work that was more so on the energy, this feels good side of things and like, you have the mindset of, okay, now I'm going to create a documentary. Like going into that, what did like success feel like to you or like, what did it feel like you were trying to like accomplish? Like, do you feel like you still had that external type of?

success mindset at the start, similar to acting.

Kelly Gores (15:45.544)

I did, I mean, it kind of comes with everything I do. I just looking back, like I've always had huge aspirations for my life. I've worked since I was able to, I just wanted freedom in that way. And for so long, and I didn't actually, wasn't even conscious of it, but like I was driven by trying to be significant and successful. to me felt like it would solve all my childhood trauma and like,

dependence on other people and just anything that was trapped in my system I was like, okay, if I can make it then I will be free from suffering, you know, and obviously over time and maturity that is not true, but So I do feel like when I when I started heel of course, I wanted to like win festivals and win awards and but But the driving force was really just like I had to do it. It was such a weird knowing where it was like

I can't not make this film. It just came to life through me. And it was just like, I don't know, I just had to say yes and had to do it. So the outcome was less important because I just knew that I had to do it. And yeah, and I have, you know, I couldn't have imagined how much of an impact that it would have, that it's had, you know? So it's been such a blessing, but it's truly,

when you just feel, and maybe that's what gives people the ability to persist, even in the face of rejection over and over. It's like, I just had such a deep knowing that this film needed to be made. It was almost like I was just like a channel to, you know, whatever you believe in coming through me.

Tim Doyle (18:38.744)

One of my favorite quotes from your book is you say, felt an energy behind me that was beyond my own. That energy allowed me to surrender and trust that this documentary needed to be made. And I was just the messenger. What did that surrender look like in real life when you started working on the documentary and had the idea for it?

Kelly Gores (19:03.104)

Yeah, it looked like feeling a lot of fear because I didn't, I've never directed a film before, know, Joe Dispenza, Michael Beckwith, Marianne Williamson, are all my Deepak Chopra, like they were all on much higher pedestals than me. And I was like, so the negative, the critical voice would come up like, who are you to make this film? Who are you to be this messenger? This is a big message. Who are you to tie all these people together? And so Surrender looked like,

going, okay, well, but like, I feel this thing, I feel this inspiration, I feel this calling in my heart. So I'm just gonna say yes, you know, like for lack of a better term, it's just like Jesus take the wheel. know, like, and I'm not like a, and this is no offense to anybody who believes anything, like I'm not a Bible something, like I'm, I think Jesus is an amazing master and you know, mystical.

teacher and historical person. So that's why I this cross. It's just like energetically, I love his teachings and his life and but I'm not into like organized religion and dogma and in that way. But yeah, Michael Beckwith is one of my teachers and he said, if you have a calling in the heart in your heart, if you have a burning desire to do something or share something or be something like

you also have everything you need to see it realized because that's how this works. That's how we are spiritual beings having this physical human three-day experience. So it resonated when he was preaching it to me. So I believed it. And then I was just like, I would be aware of this fear coming up trying to stop me. the surrender was just like, okay, I'm just through the fear, despite the fear, I'm gonna move forward. And everything just kind of unfolded once I made that commitment.

Tim Doyle (20:59.864)

seems like your work is more of a listening act than more so about thinking or creating.

Kelly Gores (21:06.548)

It is. I do get caught, like all humans, in the thinking, the spin cycle of thinking. But I'm really, really tuning into... It started, you're right, it started as energy, look, feeling, like even I would be running on the treadmill and I would notice my thoughts starting to think about something that was stressful and I would immediately become tired or I'd slow down or like it felt very heavy.

And then if I was running on the treadmill and I thought of like a win for that day or like an email I got from Joe Dispenza or, you know, something that I wanted, like, I felt like I could run for another two hours, you know? And I started paying attention to that. was like, wow, our thoughts really drain us or light us up. And so it is a listening act and I've honed it over time. And then there's big periods where I completely forget and you go off track, but

That's my kind of next project is all about feeling. like heal was power of the mind and our subconscious beliefs and how it affects our epigenetics and our ability to heal. And now I'm dropping into the body and it's all about feeling, whether it's feeling emotion, feeling energy, feeling your intuition. it's such a, I mean, that's like the next project. So you nailed it, yeah.

Tim Doyle (22:31.32)

What I find interesting about the documentary is how you've spoken about that while it's largely about physical healing, that wasn't necessarily the intention going into it. Like when you first started, what did you envision and how quickly did this new shape for the documentary take form?

Kelly Gores (22:53.326)

It's a great question. yeah, I think when I first started, it was like co-creating with life. was like, we can manifest the life of our dreams. And then more and more people around me were getting sick. And then like Joe Dispenza's healing story. Once I got the cast of characters together, it just became obvious that people needed to kind of wake up and not just like take the pill that their doctor was.

telling them to take and like, especially when it comes to chronic illness. medication, surgery, all of these things are extremely important and useful for life saving acute situations. But for chronic illness, it's really often a lifestyle, a stress, a mindset, a environment thing. And so I just wanted to...

wake people up to that. And then the things that got me really excited are these spontaneous healing stories, like Joe Dispenza consciously visualizing and walking through that exercise of healing a spine. Anita Morjani having a near-death experience. I mean, she to me, once I read her story, I was ready to do the film, because I was like, she is the poster child of possibility. Her physical body was so far gone. And then,

All that happened is she had a near-death experience, a shift in consciousness, a kind of like reconnection with the oneness and got a full understanding that everything in her life, she had come from fear. And if you come from fear, you create dissonance and dis-ease and kind of air quotes like hell and suffering on earth. And if you come from love, which is where, what kind of were made froms,

frequency wise and where we go to, where we came from and where we go back to, according to Anita's NDE and millions of others, that resonates. Then you can create heaven on earth. You can create and manifest a very amazing human experience. So, and when she had that shift in consciousness, she came back into her physical body and within three weeks, everything came back online and she's, know, cancer dissolved, lemon sized tumors from her

Kelly Gores (25:11.392)

neck to her abdomen, everything healed and came back into alignment. like that just, that is possible for everybody and no matter what they're dealing with. And I want to continue to see that. I really want to see that with ALS. I want to see that in the toughest cases where we think there's no possibility. I think there's always possibility.

Tim Doyle (25:35.384)

What I find really cool about Anita's story is that I had somebody on my show, Dr. Eben Alexander, not sure if you've heard of him or not, but incredible near-death experience as well. And very similar story about love. He said that is the main takeaway that he took from that entire experience. Everything is love.

Kelly Gores (25:44.312)

Yeah, yeah.

Kelly Gores (26:00.238)

Mm hmm. Yeah. And that's like, you know, I've mentioned Jesus before. Again, this is like funny. But I just have like Jewish friends that have had these spiritual experiences, whether through psychedelics or whatever, they're like, Jesus appeared, you know, and they're like, not really Jesus people, but they're like, Jesus is cool. Like, he's a teacher. He's a master teacher. So if you just take him for his master, he's a master. So his whole language is love, his ability to see beyond judgment. That's love. And, and, you know,

Tim Doyle (26:32.994)

I think it's become a calling card within our society today, just to say like the medical system's broken. And I do think there's a lot of truth to that. And I agree. But I think when you just keep repeating that and when like the majority is in agreement on it, you don't sort of parse it out or you don't try to actually like understand like, all right, like what's actually broken or what does that mean? And what I really like about your work in the documentary is that it brings depth.

and new language to that and understanding the relationship between chronic and acute care. Like, can you talk more about that?

Kelly Gores (27:12.14)

Yeah, I would say, know, we've, like, there's life-saving technology and advancements in medicine that, thank God, we have. So if you have an infection, this is more of an acute situation, and it would probably serve you to take an antibiotic unless it's, you know, in very rare cases, you could treat it naturally and not take the antibiotic. But for most cases, like,

you need something like an antibiotic to fight an infection. And infections, if not treated immediately or properly, like can lead to death or other things. So that's an acute situation. A chronic situation develops over time and it's usually there's inflammation involved in the body. There's multiple just injuries over and over, whether it's the types of food you eat or chronic stress just wearing down.

your adrenals and your organ systems and, know, like cancer is a perfect chronic condition. It develops over time and it's your body's reaction, usually a tumor, to this imbalance or inflammation or, you know, acidity or, you know, there's so many causes of cancer and it's usually a cacophony of reasons. so I guess what I would say is we are treating

chronic conditions as if they're acute and that model doesn't work for chronic conditions. And unfortunately, what I see the flaws are, and there are many, think that the human beings involved in the system are just trapped in a system that's really, really hard to do good work. Doctors usually start out altruistic, they wanna help people, but then their first oath, their Hippocratic oath is to do no harm. But when...

you're being, you know, when our medical schools are being funded by pharmaceutical companies, when the research, you can only get funding from a lot, because the pharmaceutical industry has a lot of cash, you know? So they're funding research, so the research and science, a lot of it that we're seeing is, you know, it has an agenda. And so, and again, the other thing that I'll mention is like, we're looking at our bodies.

Kelly Gores (29:39.115)

as machines and it's become specialized medicine. So you get paid more when you are kind of like a specialized doctor. And so they separate these organ systems through these specialties and nobody's communicating with each other. And this is a whole system. So if you cut out organ A because of a condition, like you're throwing off the whole entire system because it needs A, you know? So all of that to say,

It just needs a refresh on, you know, that we're not machines that can be just like cut up and treated one by one. We're a holistic system and need to be treated as such. And with chronic conditions, there's an imbalance in the entire system usually. And we need to change the terrain, the frequency and the care that's given to the inner and outer environment of the system rather than just like.

You know, and like just a good example, you the standard of care for cancer is, know, usually cut poison burn, you know, it's radiation, it's chemo and it's surgery. And what was I gonna say? Where was my thought going with this? yeah, so cancer develops over time and you can bombard it with

chemo, radiation, surgery, all the things that we just said. But if you don't address the root cause of why the cancer developed in the first place, it will come back 99 % of the time because not only our radiation and chemo on their own cause cancer, but you haven't changed anything about the environment that allowed the cancer to grow. So it's just something to think about. Don't want to demonize any

standard of care. It's like there's very smart people doing wonderful things and saving lives. But you really with chronic conditions have to get to the root cause and treat it as an environmental issue and go, how can this be a wake up call? Just to show me, okay, I developed cancer. Where am I out of alignment in my life? Is it with my diet? Is it this toxic relationship I'm in? Am I off the path of my...

Kelly Gores (32:02.7)

gifts that I came here to express and I'm in a dead end job. it's, it's a, it's everybody that I know of who has healed from cancer by getting to the root looks as cancer is the greatest gift of their life. They don't want to go through it again, but it got them back on track and now they feel better and more vital because they're addressing the environmental issue. They're addressing the lifestyle. They're addressing their stress, their trauma and their alignment with their, their, their gifts. So.

I hope that answered your question. Yeah.

Tim Doyle (32:32.192)

It's the, it's the wake up call. And, you know, we love within our conventional system, we love symptom management. And I feel like that's the language that we use of, how can we best manage this? And we just get into the mindset of, management means we can't get rid of this. Like I'm just trying to keep this at bay for as long as I possibly can. But this is something that's always going to be with me. And you say another quote in your book,

Kelly Gores (32:53.325)

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (33:02.252)

that I want to build off of you say the suffering is created by the story we tell ourselves about the information. And I'm going to put a caveat on that because at least from my own personal experiences. And I think for a lot of people, it's not. I don't think it's the story that they create or concoct as it's more so. OK, this is a story that I'm being told by people that I'm supposed to be listening to who are.

Kelly Gores (33:30.978)

Thank you.

Tim Doyle (33:31.928)

smarter than me. Like this is what they do. This is their work. So this must be true. Like this story must be true. And what I find really funny is like we were going talking about earlier, like within my culture and society, it feels like storytelling is kind of like a dying thing. And we just like think of like content creation. I think people need a greater appreciation for in the medical space. Like storytelling is big.

within the medical space when it comes to creating narratives and perceptions. Like we think of pain and suffering as like, okay, that's just like cold hard facts. Like here's the information, this is why you're feeling pain. But it's like, no, narratives are being created around this and it's like up to you to rewrite them to a degree.

Kelly Gores (34:20.459)

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, I love that. It's the story that you're buying into. And a lot of people don't know that there could be another story because they're listening to someone that they've given away their power to for the right reasons. Like they went to medical school, we didn't. But I think back to your point about symptom management, it's the medical model. Doctors want to give their patients relief, but oftentimes,

because of chronic conditions, the root cause is again, a combination of things. And given the current insurance model, conventional doctors in the system only can afford to spend like 15 minutes with their patient. They can't possibly get the whole story of their lives to get to the root cause of the imbalance. And again, they're usually specialized. So they're like, okay, I have this drug, which will give you relief. The problem is you're giving relief to the symptoms.

liken it to your house is on fire. The smoke alarm is going off, driving you nuts. So the fire's not burning you yet, but there's a fire in your house and eventually it's going to burn the house down. Smoke alarm is the like piercing alarm that's giving you a headache and like driving you mad. And so Western medicine is like when you just treat the symptom, the pain, and don't get into the underlying root cause, you're just turning off the smoke alarm.

but that fire is still burning and eventually your house is gonna burn down. And so you turn off the smoke alarm, you give yourself the mental relief, but you've gotta deal with the fire and unfortunately the conventional model doesn't have the time or the capacity to deal with the fire, which is why I love integrative, this rise of integrative and functional medicine and naturopathic medicine, because they come at it from, okay, we may need to turn off the fire alarm just to like, I'll get our sanity for a bridge, take an antidepressant.

to get you through this period, do the chemo, because it's a later stage. We may have to turn off the fire alarm, but we also are quite aware that there's a fire burning and that now that we have our sanity back, let's use it as a bridge and then go and find that fire and put it out with lifestyle medicine, emotional support, and everything else.

Tim Doyle (36:40.79)

And to attack that analogy from a different angle, I think like what you see and it goes back to that cancer pointed you saying like the people that you know that have healed from cancer say like this is one of the best things that's happened for me. Obviously, I don't want to go through it again. I don't want people to have to go through it, but this is one of the best things that's happened for me. I think you would say that, OK, like within the conventional system would be like, OK, there's a fire and this is burning me down. But within that other type of perception and storytelling, it's like, OK, this is the thing that's actually

going to light me up to a degree. And there's this other quote that I love from your documentary, Darren Weissman, Dr. Darren Weissman. says, you've got to see the problem as the portal and recognize that these symptoms and stressors are meaningful and brilliantly intelligent in waking us up. And so I like the next question then becomes, how do you see it? Like, okay, how do we access that portal? And how do we,

navigate through that portal, not necessarily trying to escape it, but more so with like an explorer's eye.

Kelly Gores (37:46.529)

Yeah. I mean, to me, it comes with a lot of trust and like, you know, I've read a lot of spiritual texts, I've had a lot of mystical experiences. So I've felt and I felt connected, I've felt this knowing that truly the universe like is happening for us and not to us. So, and

And it's all intelligence, like, you know, spirit, God, the universe, cosmos, whatever, nature. There's an intelligence behind it that is far greater than we can comprehend in our small human limited minds, which is, you know, that's why like the planets, there's this order to the universe, right? That it's organized by intelligence. And there's a dance, like there's, of energy that's happening, right?

If, if the more you study these things, the more you have these experiences in your body that you're like, okay, I like that synchronicity, there's it. That was like miraculous and perfect. Like I could not have thought of that better, you know, and have those experiences over and over. You start to trust that life is happening for you. And then you're going through the dark night of the soul. You're going through the challenges. You're going through a health challenge and it sucks and it's hell.

But on the other side of it, if you can, most of the time in hindsight, you're going, my God, that hell led me to my partner, my business partner, my romantic partner, my, you know, so really trusting that these challenges, my house burned down earlier this year and everything in it I owned. And it just, I got the download like very early on. was like liberation. Like I'm entering a new chapter of my life.

and as beautiful as these things were, I'm like moving very quickly. Like I need to just kind of shed the energetic weight, you know, and I did it in a community. So everybody, but that's how, that's how intelligence, divine intelligence is. It's like everybody in the Palisades or in Altadena or in Lahaina like, or in the Middle East, like everybody's having the human experience that they need for their soul's evolution is my belief. And

Kelly Gores (40:16.039)

So I just, yeah, I think trust in that. And I'm not perfect. I don't bat a thousand with the trust thing. There are days that I scream at the top of my lungs in my car and get frustrated and I'm like, why? But then I have other days. I was just thinking about this day. I have this magical day today and I get to hang out with you. It's even more magical. And I'm not just saying that. Your energy's amazing. You're so...

You know, just like you're so sweet and resonant and like with my work, you know, like you're, you're one of my soul family. we're, we're all here, you know, aligned. And so all of that to say, like, if we can learn to ebb and flow and know that like the universe, it expands and contracts. We have to contract to expand our hap, our hap, like the pump on your heart that's been beating since you're developed as a little fetus.

Like, can you imagine your heart has been pumping gallons of blood? It's a muscle that has never stopped or rested the entire time you're like, like for me, that's 46 years. This thing's been ticking like that is a miracle. There is a muscle in your body that is not tired and you have nothing to do consciously with what it's doing. And it's keeping you alive. Like there is a divine intelligence operating through our bodies, operating through, you know, our interactions. And so.

Tim Doyle (41:20.78)

Never thought of that before.

Kelly Gores (41:40.807)

really, and the more you hear these stories, and this is why I want to tell these stories, the more people hear the stories about the people that have gone through cancer and it like woke them up to their gifts or got them on track or introduced them to the love of their life or whatever it is, the more you can go, okay, I'm going through a challenge or what is this waking me up to? Where is the blessing and the lesson in this? And the more you have to, the more you start looking through that lens,

you know, the more miracles and it's like your aperture opens and more miracles are available to you.

Tim Doyle (42:19.34)

That first time through the portal does take a lot of blind trust and faith. But yeah, I'm a true believer that I honestly do think to like a degree, like within our conscious mind, like we don't know what's best for us. And I think when you have unwilling challenges come into your life that ultimately alchemizes into gifts that you never thought you could have or even could imagine or could comprehend.

And when it gets into mind, body care, because mind, body care has helped me a lot when it came to healing from chronic pain and no conventional stuff helped me. And I feel like the next step forward is like a language evolution because like for me explicitly, like I said, conventional didn't work and mind, body and holistic did. So I think it can like really help people to

like, I took an unconventional route to get better when it's more so just like, hey, I did what worked instead of like, like conventional unconventional. What are your thoughts on that? And where do you see like, I guess the continued evolution of language within the space going?

Kelly Gores (43:38.263)

Yeah, that's a great question. Now I'm just curious like what you did. I'm curious to hear your story about what your unconventional path was because pain is such a big one. Pain is such a hard thing to crack. So I'd love for you to just share like a couple minutes of what you did and how you did it. Did you try conventional and it didn't work and then you...

Tim Doyle (44:00.182)

Yeah. Yeah. So I guess, I mean, it's my own podcast. It's not like plugging something, but like, like I created a whole podcast mini series on the entire process, but, so I got, diagnosed with herniated discs in my lumbar spine, and did all conventional treatments of, okay, physical therapy, steroid pack.

cortisone injections, massage therapy, chiropractic adjustments, spinal decompression, nothing was helping me and was just told like, well, you have really, really big herniation, so that's why this isn't working. And was very, very close to getting a surgery because I was told like, hey, like this is, you're not making any progress here. So it's probably just so bad that like you need an operation to.

help relieve you of this pain. And I was very, very close, but she deserves all the credit. Like my mom was like, you haven't given this enough time and you're too young to get a back surgery. So it was just a, going back to the analogy of going through the portal, like that was my first time through the portal, so to speak. And it was just a lot of blind trust and faith of like, hey, I'll eventually figure this out.

And I got introduced to the mind body connection and the work of Dr. John Sarno, who's very deep within the work of, you know, rest in peace to his soul. Now, I mean, the guy changed my life when he was already in the ground, which is remarkable to think of. got introduced to his work. And it was funny because when I first heard about it, I was like, what are you talking about?

Kelly Gores (45:44.079)

I have chills.

Tim Doyle (45:55.658)

No, like this isn't going to help. Like this isn't going to work for me. Like let me just continue doing my spinal decompression and just got to a point of such desperation and, also just so much debilitating pain where I was like, okay, I have to try this. And within two weeks I was back in the gym and I was like, Whoa. And like it was

like overcoming that, like it turned from, is the worst thing that's ever happened to me, this is the absolute best thing that's ever happened to me. Like, like I wouldn't be talking, like it's serious, like I wouldn't be talking with you here today or like your work wouldn't resonate so much, like if it wasn't for that experience and going through that.

Kelly Gores (46:45.103)

Yeah, John Sarno is incredible and he is so that's so beautiful and the portal is so scary and then on the other side you're like, like this. It had to be that intense to where you were. mean, pain is debilitating pain can make your mind want to leave the planet and to have an angel like your mother have the wherewithal to be like

especially most moms just want their kids to have relief. But she also had this like knowing and intuition that you were young and you were at your highest healing capacity because you're healthy otherwise. I just think, yeah, my storytelling, my language, my formula is like combining people with how like how it works. Like John Sarno did that well. And then

examples of it working for other people so that people start to program a different belief and can hear a different, buy into a different story, right? So that's why I'm fired up about my work. Cause I just, want to keep giving people the education and the meaning of what's possible and why our bodies are so intelligent and why this field between us has information in it and how what we do and think and

believe affects the information that we're in the life experience that we're attracting or creating. So yeah, all of that to say like, I just think.

And for anyone listening, their journey, like John Cernow went through something which compelled him to walk through the portal and then come up with this work and formula that changed the lives and continues to millions of people. So what if you're going through something, whether it's a gnarly divorce and a betrayal, a really scary terminal health diagnosis, like what if we start to look at it from the portal back going,

Kelly Gores (48:48.137)

this is going to crack me open to do the purpose that I came here to do. And on the other side, so I just, think what your mom and you helped you to do is like, it starts with an intention. And it starts with feeling and listening to your body and going, you know what, the surgery doesn't quite feel right. I'm too young. I have too much life. want more options and flexibility to do things. And once I have that surgery, I can't ever go back.

So let's give it more time. I'm gonna set the intention to find out this thing. that's, it starts with an intention and it starts with looking at it going, okay, I'm through a fire here, but I know on the other side, this fire is a portal and I will be into a new world where I, like my purpose, my partner, my, you know, my greatest chapters are on the other side of this and I just need to get through. So yeah.

Tim Doyle (49:45.784)

Yeah, and it is it's a breaking bike. It's a breaking down. And then it. You get to a point where it feels like a building up or it's like, whoa, look at how things have just completely shifted here. And this goes back to that perception like I was talking about briefly, like. You get to a point where you just. You have this sense of faith and knowing because for such a long time it was like.

Kelly Gores (49:54.765)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Gores (50:00.793)

Mm.

Tim Doyle (50:15.896)

This is beating me down. This sucks. Like, why is this happening? And then getting to a point where I was like, oh, wow, that was like a really beautiful experience. And you get into, I feel like just a natural wiring, at least for myself personally of like.

Well, the perception changed, like this thing that like was really bad in the moment turned into something so beautiful. Like how could I bring that same framing to anything else in my life again of like, this sucks because it's like, well, maybe this is just supposed to happen and let me flow with it.

Kelly Gores (50:51.247)

Totally. That's what I'm experiencing now. And I feel like, I don't know if it's just because that's where my mindset has become, but in observing the world around me, it feels like there's like a frequency elevating and there's a pressure building that's like kind of forcing people out of lives that are out of alignment. Like the universe is organizing for us right now at a more rapid pace. And that could be very jarring for people, but when we have this lens, like I'm like...

groups of people have been removed from my life. it like, I take a moment and it's like, ouch, that hurts. Like I don't want them to be gone, but I have to trust that there's a reason and it's making space for something way more aligned, authentic and loving. And so I am in that flow where it's just like, feel the feelings, like ouch, and let them go. Like trust that.

there's an organization happening on your behalf and for you. And it's when we grasp or when we are like push or when we hold, that's when we're suffering. We really have to like stay present, stay trusting and know, like lean into the connections that make us feel good, lean into the, you know, walks in nature or yoga or whatever makes us feel good.

so that we can maintain this presence and resilience and flow in all of this kind of reorganization.

Tim Doyle (52:24.236)

Yeah, mean, mind-body care is so powerful and I've felt that power and I've seen it with other people as well. But I think an important caveat to that or something that I think people can get slipped up with when it comes to mind-body care is like you can almost, like you can become receptive and like.

understand, okay, like there's a mental component here, like, let me take a holistic approach, but still having that conventional mindset or philosophy behind it. And what I mean is, like, like still thinking of like, something is wrong, or something is broken, like, you're not necessarily thinking in terms of muscles or tendons or nerves or like, mechanical things, but you're thinking in terms of like,

I'm just like holistically broken and something needs to be fixed. Like, have you seen similar stuff like that? Do you like agree with that at all?

Kelly Gores (53:30.157)

I do. mean, what I'm learning through like parts work and other things like the root of healing is whole, wholeness, right? And I feel like all healing is spiritual healing. So there's people that have massive spiritual healing, but then their body has run its course and they don't physically heal in this lifetime. But to me, it's...

It really is starting to look at your journey as a remembering of our already our innate wholeness and the society will have a sink that we're not pretty enough, not tall enough, not smart enough, not thin enough, not fat enough, like whatever it is, not dark enough, not light enough. And to really come back to that, there's nothing to fix, there's nothing wrong, there's nothing broken. There's a conversation going on between you and your body.

and it's a conversation and it's trying, like your body is your biggest ally. there's imbalances and things that are out of flow, but it's truly a conversation and there's parts of you that just wanna be seen, felt and heard. once we start to, even a cancer tumor can be argued as your body trying to protect itself from this

know, mitochondrial breakdown. that's a different podcast. But all of that to say, yes, there's nothing wrong. There's nothing broken and there's nothing to fix. It's a conversation that we need to start listening to. So even, mean, you said it before I even realized it, but yes, my work is all about, it's about listening and learning the language of this incredible, incredible system that is our human body.

and our human consciousness and how to really keep that conversation in flow and open and loving and accepting of all of it, you know?

Tim Doyle (55:41.004)

Language has been the biggest contrast that I've seen within the two types of care. Like when I was within the conventional medical system, it was all about pain management and specifically the word recovery. And it's not until I took a mind-body holistic approach that the main word was heal. And that's largely why your work resonates so much. like, wow, I love that. The branding and the work behind this is around this word heal.

It's one of the most common questions that I ask a lot of people when it would resonate with them. What do you see the difference? Because I do think there's a difference. What do you see is the difference between recovery and healing?

Kelly Gores (56:24.111)

gosh, that's a good question.

Kelly Gores (56:32.451)

I don't know. I don't know how to answer that question. How would you, what, please tell me your difference. No, this is beautiful.

Tim Doyle (56:34.648)

I can give you my definition. So the way that I see it, and I guess it actually goes to what Joe Dispenza writes about in the forward of your book, the way that I see it, and this is going to like just the dictionary definition of recovery as well. Like I understand recovery as a return. So like we're thinking of our past self of like, okay, I'm trying to.

Return to who I was before this happened like that's who I want to be like I want to be my past self like man like I want to get back to that person. I want to get back to that version of who I am And it's like that person's gone like then there's no going back to that person So like recovery is a return and I see healing as an introduction like it's an introduction to our highest self It's who we're supposed to be and Joe dispenses says in the forward of your book

explicitly to heal is to in a sense become someone else.

Kelly Gores (57:38.863)

Yeah, that's so beautiful. I love that. Totally. Yeah, recovery. I don't want to go back. I want to keep expanding. It's spiraling, evolving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to recover. We don't want to return to. Yeah, I love that.

Tim Doyle (57:45.676)

But that's the language that's used. Like I'm trying to recover.

Tim Doyle (57:54.09)

Yeah, you think you do, but it's yeah, it's I guess you don't have an appreciation for that until you start to get a little taste of it. Like you're always you're our focus on returning. But then once you're able to, I guess, dip your foot in the water a little, then you're able to be like, OK, yeah, I am becoming somebody else. And like it was funny because I made a video on this once where, you know,

Kelly Gores (58:05.358)

Mm-hmm.

Tim Doyle (58:24.054)

like my doctor that I was working with at the time, you know, told me like, or it's just like what you commonly hear, like there's life before your back problems and there's life after. And I'm like, yes, that's completely true. It's just like life is so much better now, like because there's completely, you know, lit me up.

Kelly Gores (58:37.827)

Yeah.

Yeah, amazing. know. Language is so powerful. And yeah, it's everything, truly.

Tim Doyle (58:50.504)

And just, I find it fascinating and just like continuing to use myself as like the subject here, I guess, because I do think going to like the storytelling component, like you can create macro level shifts by diving deep into the micro, like a micro level story of somebody's personal experience can create like macro level shifts, I truly believe. And another quote from your book is let's not wait for a devastating diagnosis to tap into our inner.

consciousness and live the life we're meant to live.

And I guess I would like to disagree or devil's advocate on that a little. Like for my person, like, don't know if that's possible. Like, like that, that pain was the, the source to be able to get to that.

Kelly Gores (59:32.495)

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Gores (59:37.229)

Yeah, yeah, I agree. I would love to know how, I mean, I would love to, again, Anita Morjani's story is so transformative. It's this like miraculous shift of showing a physical body being as far gone as it, there's not a human being, including medical professionals, that would think that she could recover and survive.

And she did with just a shift in consciousness. So how can we access that shift in consciousness without having to nearly die? You know, and it's the same with this. I like, now that you're talking, yes, I agree. Let's not wait for daunting diagnosis and let's do this. So again, intention, the more people that preventatively start to be curious and start to listen to their bodies, then, you maybe we...

We catch whispers before they become shouts. But I always say, like, to your point prior to this about, you know, the language of recovery, it's in cancer, you know, we, when I was, I was so clear when I was starting to do HEAL that I wanted to shift the narrative around cancer because society, there's so much fear that we, because we've conditioned society to con,

like to conflate it with a death sentence. So people equate cancer with a probable death. And that's the narrative and that's language that is used consciously or subconsciously in the conventional model. And I would say let there be a death, let there be a death of the old person, of the old energy, of the old signature that allowed the cancer to come up and go into that deep dive of reflection and investigation of

Okay, where am I out of alignment? Because if I'm in alignment, if I am in my joy, if I am making conscious, beautiful decisions about how to nourish my body, if I'm in line aligned with nature, if I am aligned with community, like, it's not a very conducive environment for things like cancer to exist. So let there be a death and let it be the death of the old you and let's give rise portal birth to this new you.

Kelly Gores (01:01:58.007)

life after back pain. That's, yeah, healing into who we already are and meant to become.

Tim Doyle (01:02:07.8)

Kelly, I think that's a beautiful place to stop. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. I mean, you've had a lot of podcast conversations over the years, both as a host and as a guest. I'm just curious to know.

Like how do you think you've evolved in the term in the way that you, I guess, talk about yourself and your work and what do you think that continued evolution looks like?

Kelly Gores (01:02:34.295)

Well, as I get older and wiser and riper in my old age, no, I think that, you know, I just give myself a lot more grace before I maybe would be nervous or like try to think of what I'm going to say or and I'm just, you know, I want to be the opposite of dis-ease is ease. I want to do the best I can. There's days where I'm scrambling and

failing, the energy's off and the astrology's off and my daughter's driving me nuts or whatever. Like, I didn't get sleep for three days and I'm not a great interviewer, I'm not a great guest. And then there's days where I'm in flow and I'm whatever. And have grace with all of it, you know, and really just continue to do the work to love and accept myself where I'm at. You know, I'm

I've had to unwind a lot of perfectionism. I've had to unwind a lot of people pleasing. It's a work in progress. I'll probably be doing it till the day I die. So for me, the secret is really like self-acceptance. And again, I fail at this every day. There's days where I like hormonally maybe often like spiraling on the floor thinking I'm the worst person on the planet, you know, or so grace and really.

all of this work that I do, this personal development work, this exploration, the seeking, like, is to just come back into connection and love of myself so that I can, when I can accept all of my humanness and my flaws and love them anyway, that's when I can show up and connect with you in a real way. Because, you know, I have compassion for myself, I'm compassionate for myself, I can have compassion with you. So it really does start with that connection and that.

you know, anything that's blocking you from loving you, you know.

Tim Doyle (01:04:29.058)

beautifully put. there anywhere that people should go to learn more about you if they want to or anything else that you would want to plug?

Kelly Gores (01:04:38.509)

Yeah, well, first of all, I'm going to send your series, your back healing series personal story to my friend who I just had a conversation with last week. I had sent him Sarno's book years ago, but he's struggling right now with a similar crossroads and he's got debilitating back pain and might have to do surgery and all these things. So like, again, miracle synchronicity. Your experience is going to help my very dear friend. So thank you.

Tim Doyle (01:04:48.759)

Okay.

Kelly Gores (01:05:05.175)

And yeah, so I would say Heal with Kelly podcast wherever you get your podcast. Please, please have a listen. And if you resonate, like and subscribe and do all those things. And then on Instagram, we're at Heal with Kelly and personally, I'm at Kelly Gorris and you know, reach out to me there, connect with me there.

Tim Doyle (01:05:24.288)

Awesome. Thoroughly enjoy the conversation, like I said, and great talking with you.

Kelly Gores (01:05:28.387)

Thanks, Tim. You're awesome.

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