#091 - Tim Doyle - How I Healed Chronic Back Pain By Rewriting My Story & Rewiring My Nervous System

This is a conversation that I had with Ashley Veenema earlier this year on her show, Seeking Joy Podcast. I talk about how chronic back pain became a portal to healing, and how quiet confidence, discipline, and trust shaped my evolution. We break down the mindbody connection in pain, reframe suffering as spiritual alchemy, and explore how storytelling can become its own form of medicine. It’s a conversation about turning hardship into meaning and what becomes possible when you finally start listening to yourself.

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Transcript

This is a conversation that I had with Ashley Veenema earlier this year on her show, Seeking Joy Podcast. I talk about how chronic back pain became a portal to healing, and how quiet confidence, discipline, and trust shaped my evolution. We break down the mindbody connection in pain, reframe suffering as spiritual alchemy, and explore how storytelling can become its own form of medicine. It’s a conversation about turning hardship into meaning and what becomes possible when you finally start listening to yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:05.56)

Hi Tim.

Ashley, it is incredible to be here with you today.

Thank you so much. This is your official welcome to the Seeking Joy podcast. I am thrilled to be in your presence, to have a juicy conversation, and just trust that whatever comes up is exactly what needs to come out.

Awesome. Yeah, I'm honored when any whenever anybody wants to have me on their podcasts. I love having deep conversations with people. It's the first one that I've done in person, so I feel it will be even more special.

Yeah, there's an energy in person that is hard to replicate even over Zoom or whatever platform you use. I think there's just like a magic that happens in person. Yeah. So I would love it if you could briefly introduce yourself. Give us like the elevator pitch of who Tim is.

Speaker 1 (00:51.182)

100%.

Speaker 1 (01:00.398)

My name is Tim Doyle. originally from Greenwich, Connecticut, which is about 45 minutes outside New York City. I have three older siblings, a dog named Tessie. Oh, I love Tessie. And moved to Austin, Texas about two months ago. Lived in the Northeast my entire life. Went to school right outside Boston, as well. So I feel like from...

Even high school, I felt like I wanted to explore outside the Northeast or I feel like the Northeast wasn't the place that was fully gonna be for me. I did live in New York City for two years right after college. But yeah, love that I'm living in Austin, Texas now and it feels so incredible to be here and connect with so many great people and I've only been here for two months. And what I've been telling people is that life kind of feels like a vacation or it kind of just feels like.

It hasn't sunk in that I actually like live here. It just feels like an extended stay and I'm like, no, this is just life now.

Honestly, that sounds magical and like a little bit of divine unfolding.

Yes, very, very divine.

Speaker 2 (02:15.564)

Yeah, we'll unpack the story of all of that. That's likely. But I would love it if you could maybe pick three adjectives you would use to describe yourself and why you've picked them, just so we can kind of pull back the layers of who Tim is digging down deep.

Can I give a descriptive one? Sure. would say, well, I'll just start with the three words, I guess, actually. Quiet, disciplined, trusting.

And why did you choose those three words?

I quiet is the one that has a lot of nuance to it where I think for me earlier in my life, quiet meant both internally and externally quiet where I was very shy on the surface but also just not sort of like internally in tune with myself. But as I got older, I would say that that shyness turned more so into quiet confidence.

and being introverted and knowing who I am and standing in the place of knowing who I am, but still on the surface being reserved. And that's definitely something that I've struggled with in the past where there is that little bit of separation on the surface where I can kind of be detached from people or I don't let people into my life right at the start or I just need some time to allow people.

Speaker 1 (03:49.77)

into my life, I like to keep a pretty small circle. And so I think my detached nature has definitely benefited me a lot. And just having that quiet, reserved nature has allowed me to really understand who I am rather than always needing to be different people to a lot of people around me. And

Yeah.

Discipline has definitely played a large role within my life as well. I'm big into fitness and working out and discipline is also something I think that was just instilled in me, especially for my dad. My dad is an incredibly disciplined person, but just like with very small stuff, just like make your bed in the morning, like take out the trash and just like that.

trickling effect where it's like if you take care of those like small things or if you're disciplined in that small nature that kind of just like exudes into other areas of your life just all around and that definitely played a role within my life when it got into fitness and routine, you know, just having a very disciplined routine from that nature and so discipline has definitely played a large role in my life as well and similar to

The quietness component, I think this is just like with any sort of adjectives that you explain yourself with, there's always a give and a take or there's a positive and a negative of looking at that. Discipline has really helped me and, you know, a common line you hear is discipline is freedom and I've definitely felt that. But I feel like that discipline at points has also like, there's been a lack of spontaneity in my life where it's like, oh, I'm so disciplined that I'm like, just stick to the routine.

Speaker 1 (05:42.996)

stick to what you know because you know that works and sort of just stay on that path rather than being spontaneous and doing things that you wouldn't regularly do on an everyday basis. And that's definitely something that I struggle with. I know I need to get better at, but that's sort of like that nuance within discipline as well. And then just trusting. This is definitely a large part of the reason why I wanted to get into

podcasting as well. feel like something that I learned about myself was like, wow, there's a lot of people who just like open up to me and they have that comfort and that ability to tell me things that maybe they don't necessarily tell other people. And there's that trusting nature to me where people feel like they can talk to me. And so, I mean, that's something that I really, you know, I'm proud that I am able to carry.

Honestly, these are an incredible set of words. And what I love about your word selection is it has evolved as you have evolved. Right? when I was doing preparation for this podcast, I feel like those three words were present at the beginning of your journey. They were present in the middle of your journey and they're present now. But they've because they've evolved with you.

Right, so that quiet nature of when you were like a kid versus who you are now. Right, it's almost like a way that you've kept your identity, but you've also shifted it into like a better, more becoming version of yourself.

Yeah, exactly. Those words have been there throughout my entire life, but the definition of those words or how I relate to them have drastically evolved over that entire time span.

Speaker 2 (07:31.938)

Yeah. And the other thing, when you were talking about the word quiet, I immediately thought of meditation and how you've brought stillness into your life. And so that's like just yet another way to look at that word and how it's come into your life. And now you also take ownership of these words, whereas maybe they were passive players in your life up until in the last few years, really.

100%. Yeah, I mean, I definitely saw quietness as a weakness. Or if we were having this conversation four or five years ago, I probably wouldn't feel as comfortable or confident saying, yeah, like one of my main things is I'm a very quiet person.

Yeah. But it's like taking ownership of your authenticity, the things that you are meant to carry and do in this life, that's your power. But until you do the transition, you don't even realize what power you have in your own uniqueness. So it's almost like this transition of quiet has actually been this shift of you leaning into your own power and own authenticity as well.

Yeah, I mean, I think for everyone, I think we all have things that we try to hold back or like don't want to appreciate that those are parts of ourselves. And I think those are like the best things that you can play into and like unlock like the best parts of yourself. And that was the same for me. Like when I was younger, I was like, I'm just like a very shy person. And there's like,

work that I've done and that goes like to the fitness as well where I've just become a very confident in who I am. But yeah, there are things where when I was younger, be like, ooh, I don't like those parts of myself or I need to improve those parts. But those have become the things that I'm like proudest of now and like I've really tapped into.

Speaker 2 (09:34.138)

And I think everybody can do that. That's the relatability of it. It's like there are probably through lines of words and ways that you identify that you maybe have villainized your whole life, except what if you were to shift that just like what you're talking about and take the power back from that. And actually, it's likely that some of those things that you've often felt belittled over or less than because of are actually the things that make you truly and uniquely a gift in this world.

Yeah, I mean, and what I would say is, like, in the first half of my life, I would say that was shyness. But now that's alchemized into just quietness and sort of just quiet confidence.

I love it that you use the word alchemize there.

One of my favorite words now and alchemy in terms of pain has been a large role within my life and a lot of the work that I do, but yeah, alchemize is a very important word.

Can you unpack the word? Like, what does that word mean to you and why is it so important to you?

Speaker 1 (10:40.886)

Yeah, I mean, I think we see emotions or different adjectives or just different descriptors as just being in this very fixed state that just stay within like, I'm a shy person. Like, I'm just going to be shy. But it's like, no, that shyness alchemized into quietness. And for me with pain, I dealt with lot of pain and physical pain within my life.

And that alchemized into healing and into power and into confidence and seeing that pain as a gift. And it's like, well, there's still pain in that. It's not like it just completely turned into something else. It's not like just like this completely new thing that I became. It's like, no, like I needed that pain to get to the second state. And this is what I tell people is, you know, pain is a part of feeling like healing does not exist.

without pain, like you don't get to that second stage without going to the first stage. And how I explain this to people almost like scientifically, water and ice are the same thing just in two different stages. It's like, so there's just like different nuance to pain or quietness or whatever descriptors we're talking about, where they're just like different states that they have in different parts of their life cycle. and that alchemy can take place within that entire cycle.

And the difference between ice and water is one single degree.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (12:12.85)

And the question is, and I think what your work hasn't covered a lot of is what is the work to be done in that one degree that shifts from pain to healing, from pain to alchemizing, to becoming, to shifting, to realizing that your pain can really be this apex of your entire rest of your journey in an empowering way instead of a flipped apex, like so a valley.

Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is I love that one degree component to it as well, because you still have to go through all the other degrees to get to that one degree. And in the moment when you're going through all those degrees, but you're not seeing the actual shift take place until you do get to that one degree where it, you know, it shifts, you're gonna be like, nothing's changing here. Like nothing has happened.

happening here. Nothing's alchemizing. It's on till you get to that one degree that then you can look back and be like, look at what has just unfolded here step after step.

Yeah, I wasn't, I was not expecting to go into states of matter when we started the beginning of this conversation. But I actually think it's like such a really great analogy. So I'm going to just like let this rip and see how it falls. I think that like when you're looking at water, for instance, when you're thinking of deep, deep, deep, deep pain, chronic pain, a lot of the stuff that you've dealt with, I actually think of that being all the way over into like water vapor, right? So like really high temperature of water. But

in order to kind of heal and do flip the script on pain, you need to be all the way over into ice where the molecules are actually moving so much slower in that sillness energy. But the difference in degree movement you have to make there is incredible, right? And so every time you do an action or they do an action, like your clients, for instance, or really anybody in the healing modality or

Speaker 2 (14:17.546)

unfolding rather, is one thing you do is a movement towards that. But in the thick of the movements from one degree to the next, you like lose sight of that. So having someone like you on their team is so important because you can remind people of how far they've come.

Yeah. And just for me personally as well, that's where I think the discipline comes into it as well, where I have that mindset now where I've experienced not seeing big things unfold day to day. And it's that's where the discipline nature comes into play, where it's like, okay, but you just need to continue to stick to the work because you know, you've experienced in the past where like, if you just do that, you'll naturally get to that place.

where you can look back and be like, look at how things just unfolded. Very, very incredible.

Yeah, that totally makes sense. And I mean, you naturally seem like more of a reflective introspective person as well, where you're kind of thinking and assessing and almost like self experimenting to become the better version of yourself. And the discipline is the actually enacting of the things that you need to to make sure that happens. But I think in the real world, to find a super disciplined person is more rare, in my opinion.

And so the fact that you had that in your own right and you had coaches along the way as well, maybe focusing on different stuff. But I think that what's really important in coming up for me during this is like to ask someone for help as you're doing that, as you're healing, as you're going down that road is really important too, because they have distance from your story and can see your truth more objectively.

Speaker 1 (16:05.678)

Yeah, I mean, I'm a big believer that stories and personal experiences and I think we'll continue to see this really are medicine in a way, rather than simply just, you know, telling somebody what to do. Like you can really heal from seeing somebody else's experience, especially when it's something that it's exactly that you're going through. You know, I created a podcast series on my entire

personal experiences dealing with chronic back pain because I knew I was like this was the first time in my life where I was like, wow, like I actually have something like within my life that like really actually needs to be shared. And this ties things back into the quietness as well because that was the first time in my life as well where I was like, I really need to speak up here. And that entire experience of creating that, but then also putting it out for other people to see because

when I was dealing with chronic back pain, like that was me where I was like, I need to find somebody that has gone through this or I need to find a story that like somebody is like positive about this. Like, yeah, like this is what I did. Like this is how I healed and I couldn't find it. And I knew when I did heal, I was like, I'm the person who needs to bring that to.

marketplace, so to speak. Like this is the story that needs to be out there. This is just such a doom and gloom, dark, negative space. And this story needs to be shared where I'm like, this is one of the most incredible things that has happened in my life and it can happen for you too. And sharing that, mean, I recently somebody, you know, reached out to me and said, I was listening to

your podcast and I literally had a release of physical pain and I'm just like, my God, like it's one thing to share your story and so like you can be inspired, but then also to help somebody literally physically in a medical way. And that's why I say like stories and personal experiences are medicine because they can have an actual effect on your.

Speaker 2 (18:24.908)

Wow. Honestly, that's so incredible. Thank you for sharing that. I want you to take me back to the moment when you decided that you were ready to tell your story.

Yes, I mean, I knew early on when I was dealing with everything. And this is actually something that I talk about my podcast series where I was lying down on the floor in my bedroom doing different exercises, just like in so much pain. This was very early on, like before I knew everything, how everything would unfold. But it was just like in so much pain. And I know I was like,

For some reason, I feel like this is going to be a hell of a story. Like, what I'm going through, like... In your head? No, like I literally spoke it out loud. Like, I was lying on the ground and I have chills saying this right now. I was just like, this is going to be a hell of a story. Not knowing anything. Like, this was right at the start. Just so much pain. Had just gotten an MRI that showed like, wow, like two really bad herniations on my lumbar spine.

Like you had that thought.

Speaker 1 (19:36.866)

And I'm like, this is just gonna be, this is gonna be a great story. And I think that can really help people like within the moment when like you're dealing with stuff, because I was dealing with a lot of stress, anxiety, pain, fear, suffering. But I always came back to that thought and that being grounded in the fact of like, hey, it's just, it's part of the story. Like, like this is part of the storyline. So like when I was going through everything,

I kept a very detailed mental log of really didn't write anything down much actually. Like I really didn't journal much, which probably would have helped me a lot, but just a very detailed mental log of everything that was transpiring, everything that I was feeling. And in a way kind of embodied like me being a character in this story rather than me just

going through this experience. And so like that's really when I thought like, this can be a story. And then when I healed the way that I did by using, you know, my mind after all conventional treatments didn't help me. I'm like, all right, like now this is really a story. Now, like we're really talking here. But that still took time because like I needed to allow myself the space and the time to

really understand it for myself, like everything that I had gone through before I shared that entire experience with the world. Like I needed to, like if I had shared it like right afterwards, it wouldn't have done as well because it would have been like, okay, I'm trying to unpack this for myself while also sharing this story with the world. And even when I was going through it and this gets into the quietness component as well, there were a lot of people in my life who were like,

dude, like I didn't even know you were going through that or like, my God, like I knew you were going through this, but like, I didn't know it was that bad. so like when I was going through it and then a couple years afterwards, when I had like finally gotten past this, it was really just like me understanding this for myself and being reflective. And then it got to the point where I was like, all right, I created a narrative where I wrote down the entire story and it's like,

Speaker 1 (22:07.182)

All right, like now I'm ready to share this. And so it was like a very gradual process, like I said, of understanding pretty early on. I'm like, this is definitely a story in the making. And then afterwards, a couple years where I was like, I'm ready to share this with everyone.

And do you remember when you like recorded that first truth telling of the whole story and then you put it out for the world?

Yeah, mean, so the funniest thing, another incredible component to it was because a few years had passed before I shared it in my podcast series, the thought or the fear that I had was, like, has enough time passed where like I can't bring that same type of energy or passion for this because

enough time had passed where I was like, wow, like it feels like I'm back in my normal life. Like I'm not in pain anymore. And it kind of feels like a thing in the past rather than something that like, like I'm experiencing right now. And the week before I recorded it, the first episode, I had the worst flare up of pain that I had had since everything that had happened. What? Like,

Not as bad, like, it was like, wow, like I think something happened here again. And that first episode of me sitting down recording this, like I was in some pain and I was like, wow, like this is how it's supposed to be happening. Like I'm like, this pain was brought back to me so I could re-embody like how terrible that was. So I could bring that energy.

Speaker 1 (24:01.922)

to me using my voice in this way where it feels like I'm reliving this again.

Wow. And you can feel that. You can feel that when you listen to that episode and the story behind it and all the pain and the unfolding of that pain as well.

Totally. And that's what I think is so powerful is that, people have told me this, you can hear the authenticity in you talking about this. And I think that truly is what comes through and what is so helpful for people where it's like, wow, I can feel the rawness behind this. I can feel the pain behind this. And that can be really beneficial for somebody who's dealing with the exact same things.

And on top of it all, your entire life up to that point has led you to that moment. By that, I mean like you went to school and studied English and your ability to articulate is so strong that not only do you have a relatable topic of pain and chronic pain and how to find your way through it to healing, but you can also do it in a way that is very emotionally in tuned.

and very articulate because you're reflective, you're naturally quiet, you think about things. And you went from, you know, New England to now where you are in Austin. And that's like a very different energy state transition as well. So one thing that I hear people say about you often is like, yes, you coach, but you really just live this life. And that's also super relatable, too, because you're not telling people how to be.

Speaker 2 (25:43.928)

You're just showing them a pathway that you took in a way that's so relatable.

Yeah, I appreciate you saying that and going back to me thinking and experiencing this like a story. wanted to share it like a story rather than simply just a, all right, here's the chronological order, just like point by point of the physical things that I've dealt with, because that's all you hear within this space of like, okay, what are your symptoms? Uh, what treatments have you tried? And all right, how can we

get you out of pain. And it's like, that is just the tip of the iceberg. It's like, no, this like affects your entire life. This affects you physically. This affects you mentally. This affects you emotionally and spiritually and socially with other people and creatively. And yeah, I'm a true believer that what my story and the way that I shared it, there's not anything else like it out there.

Like there's not another story. I'm not saying, you know, me being in pain. There's so many people in pain. There's so many people dealing with this. I'm saying the way that I shared it and the level of depth that I brought to it where it's like not just talking about symptoms and physical pain, but my entire life and the deeper mental and emotional and spiritual challenges, but also then

how those alchemized using that word again into breakthroughs. Yeah, I mean, and you're right, my reflective nature allowed me to do that. And, you know, it's one of the proudest things I've done.

Speaker 2 (27:35.122)

And I think the energy with which you talk about all of this shows that. Yeah. Like full stop. Like there's no stutter step there. Like you feel in your purpose. Like this makes total sense to me. And I'm sure the audience can hear it as well. But I'd love to go into the work a little bit more. So something that's really important that I've heard from you or gathered by looking at your stuff is essentially this mind body connection.

So when did you wake up to that power and how does it relate to the work that you're putting out into the world now about healing chronic pain?

Yeah. So with my own personal experiences and with anyone who deals with chronic pain, especially chronic back pain, you get into this system of just doing these conventional treatments that are just a hundred percent physically based because it's like, all right, you're probably feeling this pain because there's something physically wrong with your body. And then you get an MRI and it shows, yeah, like you've got a pretty bad herniation here. So you have this image that shows this

confirmation or creates this narrative and this story that, hey, here's a bad looking image. This is why you're feeling pain. So we need to do these physical treatments to help this. So I was doing physical therapy, spinal decompression shots, pills, massage therapy, dry needling, which is like acupuncture. And none of these things were helping me. And so I got further into the narrative.

and the perception of like, if none of these things are helping me and like, this is what you're supposed to be doing for this, then like my body must be so much worse or so much more broken and fragile than everyone who's dealing with this stuff. And got very, very close to the point of almost getting a surgery and thankfully did not go down that route, which led to

Speaker 1 (29:40.288)

me continuing to be in pain, just trying to hope by still doing these conventional treatments that I would finally get out of pain. And it wasn't until five or six months into all of this that I got introduced to the mind body connection and how with chronic pain and chronic back pain, your mind is playing a role within the entire experience of feeling pain and your body breaking down rather than simply just like something physically.

going on in your body, something wrong with your body. And when I first heard this, I was like, get the hell out of here. Like, what are you talking about?

Do you remember where you heard it the first time?

I think I was just at my house or yeah, I was at my house and I got introduced to it because my sister was this was like all during COVID as well. So my sister was living at home at the time when I was there and she got she was with an old friend of hers and they were they were catching up.

And she was like asking, how's everyone doing? And she goes like, yeah, everyone's well. like, Tim's dealing with some really bad back problems right now, actually. Like he's not doing well. And the friend was like, like my husband dealt with like really bad back stuff. And yeah, all these conventional things weren't helping him. And then he learned about the mind body connection and you know, how the mind was playing a role in it. So that's how I learned about it. So like my sister just relayed this to me.

Speaker 1 (31:17.15)

And I remember like gut reaction, how most people are just like, like, what are you talking about? Like, no, that's not what I'm dealing with. Like, I'm just going to continue to do my spinal decompression and that will hopefully help me. And I had gotten to a point of such desperation and just being in such pain that I was like, all right, these things clearly aren't working. So I have to.

try this next thing. I didn't see it as, like this really, like there were some things that resonated, but it wasn't like, oh, like this is gonna be the thing that helps me now. It was kind of just like, all right, like let's try the next thing now and hopefully this works. And got introduced to the work of Dr. John Sarno who is dead now, but he's really like.

one of the leading forces behind understanding the mind body connection, especially with chronic back pain and which is so powerful in a way because he has books that he's written on this and I read these when he was dead. And one of my favorite quotes, I think it's from James Clear. I don't know the exact quote, but it's basically like, words can outlive who you are. And I'm like, this guy is dead.

and he's had a profound impact on my life because of the writing that he has done. And I see that as well with podcasts, but also just writing books where it's like these pieces of media and this material outlives us. And that was also part of the reason why I created my podcast series. I was like, I know this can help a lot of people right now. Somebody might find this 20 years down the line.

Like there might be an infant right now who was just born, but 20 years down the line, he's going to be dealing with some back pain or she's going to be dealing with some back pain and is going to come across, you know, the younger version of me who dealt with all this and be like, whoa, like this story really helped me. And that was my whole mindset behind it as well. I'm like, this isn't just for people now dealing with this stuff. Somebody could find this 20 or 30 years from now.

Speaker 1 (33:37.132)

And that also stemmed for me understanding the work of Dr. John Serrano and reading his books on the mind body connection. so that was a little tangent there, but getting more so into the mind body when it comes to chronic back pain and what that work looks like is because I was told you've got a physical problem. So we need a physical solution to this with the mind body connection and understanding chronic back pain. It's like this pain isn't a

problem that needs to be solved. It is a message from your mind or it's a message that's being manifested in your body and how I explain the mind body connection people because you're like, all right, so like, what does this mean mind body? When somebody gets nervous and their stomach starts to hurt doesn't mean like they have a stomach problem. It's like, okay, like you're dealing with these nerves and you're having a physical manifestation now.

And instead of being distressed about like, like what's wrong with my stomach? It's like a sign of like, okay, this is a sign for my body or this is a message from my body that I need to listen to and I need to understand rather than attack or fight against. So for six months, I was dealing with this terrible pain, trying to attack it, fight it. This pain is a problem in my life. This pain is a fear. And when I flipped that where I was like,

Folks in my mind now come at this from a vantage point of, this is a message, this pain is a message that I need to unpack and understand rather than need to get rid of and then healing unfolded very quickly after that. And I was like, wow, more people need to know about this. Like I was so close to getting a surgery and there's so many people who just get.

endless amounts of treatments and they're paying so much money or they'll get a surgery and it's like, I had the thought of like how many people are in my position right now? Like I was very lucky and very blessed that I got to a point where I was only dealing with this for seven months. You know, I know people who like, you know, I've been dealing with this for 15 years. I've been dealing with this for 20 years. So like in the grand scheme of things, it was almost like I had just been dealing with it for a weekend.

Speaker 1 (36:02.242)

compared to some people. And it's like, this stuff needs to be shared more and people need to be coached through this. And that's kind of the natural evolution for me, where I was like, let me share my story. And then I've connected with a lot of people and people been like, hey, like, can I talk to you and like about your experience and how you actually put this into place and how you did it and how you got from, you know, where you were and where you are today.

And I was like, and shout out to Nick Sweeney, I know you know who he is. He was a major force in opening my eyes up to the fact of like, dude, like the story is just the start of it. Like you can have a very personal and close impact on people with helping them within their own lives and taking them through this process.

And it's been incredible to do that work. And like we've talked about, you know, I'm not a coach. Like I didn't want to. I didn't have the thought to necessarily get into this myself. Like it took somebody else who has a similar healing story to be like, dude, like you have a power and a gift and skills and lived experiences that can really help people within their life.

with coaching them through this. And it's just been so remarkable to see that play out within my own life and continuing to like, that is what my relationship with pain looks like now that that alchemist station, if that's even a word continues to unfold where it's like, Hey, this is still my relationship with pain. And it's just turned into I'm in pain anymore, but let me help people through that entire process now.

so that their pain can alchemize into a gift. And so it's been incredible work and it's just the beginning for it.

Speaker 2 (38:06.334)

And it's all like naturally unfolded in a progression, right? Like it's like you didn't get the next thing until you were ready, right? Like you didn't hear those words from your sister, ultimately from her friend, right? You didn't hear those words until you are almost at the depths of despair. You were like, I just don't know what to do. I've done all the conventional wisdom. I've done all the stuff. And you're like, done.

And in that moment, you were able to hear what she said and then incorporate it into you. Just like when Nick said, hey, you actually have a gift, but you were ready to hear it because you had already put out your story, you had started your podcast, people were connecting with you, they were resonating with what you were saying, and now you were ready to hear it. And now you've stepped into that role and you've created an entire methodology around it, which we'll unpack in a second.

But I think the other thing that's really powerful is you shift relationships around pain, which is what you talked about, right? I feel like we see pain and suffering as other than us. But what you're doing in this process that you ultimately unfolded for yourself is you're essentially saying, or you embodied this belief of, actually, it's just telling me something.

There's love in that, right? In the battle of pain, us versus them, it's a battle, it's a war. You'll never put down your weapons, right? That pain isn't being heard and seen in the way that it's calling so desperately for you to hear. So when you shift that frame, you go into a relationship with the pain and you're like, what's there? What's there? What is it really telling?

What's crazy is nine times out of 10, it doesn't actually have to do with a physical body at all, which is probably the truth that you stumbled upon. But I would love it if you could just unpack any thoughts that come to mind around that, as well as your methodology that you would ultimately develop over time.

Speaker 1 (40:16.814)

couldn't agree with you more. And the mindset that I didn't understand needed to happen until I got out of pain and healed was, okay, if I am treating pain, and this goes for people who are dealing with this right now as well, it's like, all right, if I'm treating pain as a problem, something that is wrong with me, something that I should be fearing, you know, using strictly

conventional physical treatments for taking all those things and it's still yielding pain, then okay, then that's just going to continue to yield pain. So if we want to yield healing, we have to do the opposite of that then. So it's like, instead of fearing it, it's like, okay, I need to embrace this instead of just strictly physical. Okay. I need to understand that my, that my mind is playing a role in this as well.

And when you do those things, when you approach it from a different vantage point, you're going to get a different result. And so these people that I talked with and what I experienced and these people that I coach, you know, who come to me and they're like, I've tried so many different things and nothing has helped me. And it's like, okay, yes, you might've been trying so many different things, but the overarching

philosophy and methodology that you're using is the same for all those things. So it doesn't matter the treatment plans or your approach for doing it. If the overall mindset and the wiring that you have around what you're dealing with stays the same, it's going to just continue to yield more pain. So it's not just about what you're doing, but it's the overall approach that you're taking to this problem.

and I'm using problem air quotes, because I'm like, you don't have a problem actually. This can be something that can truly transform your life for the better. And this can be a major gift. And that's where my work comes in with people and getting into my own methodology with the oral method, which is the coaching program that I've created is a lot of the work that I do is on teaching people what they

Speaker 1 (42:41.944)

perceive about what they're dealing with and how the pain that they're dealing with, they've created this narrative and this perception. And it's not so much that they've just created it, but it's what they've been told. Like I was told, all people are told, this is what you're dealing with. Okay, it's cut and dry. You're dealing with this physical pain because you have this physical problem in your body and this is why you've been dealing with it for so long.

So you just stay in that very fixed mindset of, okay, this is what I'm dealing with. And it's like, let's take a step back actually, because that's actually not what you're dealing with at all. Like this isn't a problem. So a lot of the work that goes into this is it's not so much doing things as it is just an educational process and

having a higher level of consciousness and awareness about what they're dealing with. And that comes into further education and understanding of the mind-body connection. And then, okay, we're not, you've been fighting against this pain for so long and it's just kept you in pain. So now what I was saying is like, all right, we're gonna do the opposite actually where, all right, this pain is a message, this pain is a gift. This is something that needs to be unpacked.

and needs to be understood rather than fighting against it. And the way that I explain that to people with, because I think language, especially within this space, has such a profound impact on our mental wellbeing, but also our physical wellbeing and our physical health. Because all that you hear from people is, you know, I'm dealing with this pain.

pain management, all these words that kind of keep the pain at bay, keep you afloat, but aren't allowing yourself to heal. And what I tell people is like, we're not trying to deal with pain actually. We're trying to feel pain. We're trying to understand pain. And that's where we can become face to face with it. And the way that I explained that to people is literally like, when you think of deal with pain, that with

Speaker 1 (45:03.32)

creates a separation where you're like, I'm just dealing with this. When you allow yourself to feel pain, there's no separate feel pain. There's no separation there. Like you are becoming face to face with it. And that comes into a lot of internal exploration and reflection process. So it's like, that's where the mental component comes into it, where it's like you, you think you need to be doing all these physical treatments to get rid of your pain actually. And it's like, no, we need to be doing

mental work and understanding your lived experience where it's like, we're not just talking about symptoms. We're understanding how this pain has played a larger role within your life. And then where the body part comes into it is you need to get back to your regular way of living. Like you need to get back to your physical activities that you love to do. I loved to work out and lift weights and I didn't lift weights for 150 days straight because I had gotten into the wiring in this

narrative of I can't lift weights. Like my body is broken. Like I can't do that. Like I was scared to and I learned I was like, if I want to get out of this pain, I need to get back to what I'm doing because my body is strong. My body is capable. I may feel pain right at the start, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there's a problem. It's just that I've gotten into such a mental wiring that, you know, it will cause pain and I need to just

shake the rust off of that or I need to break that wiring. And like that's the evidence that you create where I was like, wow, this stuff really is working for me actually and can help a lot of other people because when I got back into the gym, I was like, I would feel like a little pain at different parts, but I wouldn't go into fight or flight mode. I would allow myself this gets into the feeling pain. I wouldn't, you know, allow my breathing to get out of sorts. I wouldn't be like, this means something's wrong. I would allow myself to just remain calm.

focus on my breathing, allow myself to feel the pain, understand I'm like, this pain is a message. This is just my, you know, my brain and my mind trying to keep me in survival mode. This doesn't mean anything's wrong. And then like the pain would release quickly right after that. I'm like, Whoa, like that's all the evidence I need to continue to do this work. And so it's guiding people through that process. Um, and like I said, my personal experience has been one of my biggest assets for me.

Speaker 1 (47:30.86)

because it's like you and I are the same. I'm just a little bit further down the path. And here's all the work that you can do to get to where I've been. And not just to get to a point where you're out of pain, but also get to a point where like, wow, this is something that incredible that I've been given. This really is a gift and it won't feel like a gift while you're going through it.

that'll only happen in hindsight when you're out of pain and then you can look back and be like, wow, there was a lot of beauty in what I went through.

Yeah. And I think it's just important to address misconceptions around the quick fix, right? Because everybody, including our medical system, really tells you if you take this medicine, it's a quick fix. If you like go to physical therapy, OK, that's less of a quick fix. If you do the surgery, it's a quick fix. You can be out of pain. Except in reality, healing, although people don't want to hear this, is like a million tiny steps.

And when you think of people's relationship with pain in particular, you have such deep grooves, these neural pathways of what you believe is true, aka limiting beliefs around pain. And so what your work does, the oral method, is essentially reprogramming these neural pathways rep after rep after rep after rep, which you're like, okay, well,

I taught you how to do this." And they're like, well, I did it three times with that I messed up once. Well, yeah, I mean, you're comparing to a system you've been running on groove for 30 years or whatever it is, especially those long patients who have been in pain for so long. And so you're like, okay, yeah, right? Just like James Clear, every action you take is a vote for the person you're becoming, right? So all of these things that you do with these people are taking little pebbles

Speaker 2 (49:33.472)

and you're putting out on one side of the teeter totter until it flips in that favor because majority rules. There will be many times where you put a pebble on the other side because it just feels easier in that moment because you go into autopilot.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:47.884)

Yeah. And what the system is built off of is just treating symptoms instead of root causes and treating symptoms is where the money gets made because when you're not getting to the root of the actual problem, the problem just continues to persist. And when you are able to get short-term relief from just treating symptoms, that is what gets people coming back. And

I'm in the business of losing clients. That's what I tell people. Like my job is to ultimately lose clients because it's like, we don't need to work together. You're healed and people, especially the longer that you deal with it, get into the belief and the narrative of, can't get rid of this. Like this is just a part of who I am. And when it becomes a part of your identity, when pain becomes a part of your identity, getting into those neural pathways as well, it becomes that much harder to break.

But that's where literally just hearing somebody say, somebody else tell you like within this space, like you can heal. Yeah, like you can heal. Like does wonders for people because all the conversations that they're having, whether it's with chiropractors, doctors, surgeons, it's all, ah, it's gonna be tough. I don't know. This is bad.

There is another way.

Speaker 1 (51:16.62)

And so I've had people just after one call talking with me, like, I've never had a call like that when talking about my best.

then how did that make you feel?

Incredible because I was that person. I knew I was like everything that I do always comes back from What did I need? What did I want? What was I feeling? Because that's who I'm talking to it's like I'm just talking to who I used to be and That's why people are like, you don't sound like a coach. I'm like, yeah, cuz I'm not a coach

Yeah, that's incredible. And you can feel that in your energy. It's just it's like, duh. Like, you know what I mean? Like, you're not convincing, you just are. And they can take it or leave it. And, you know, I think that's rewriting. I think what you're doing is rewriting the entire narrative around pain and you're giving them hope. And hope is

Yeah, I mean, I'm not like...

Speaker 1 (52:14.072)

Mm-hmm.

Huge. When you think of chronic, anything really.

Yeah, I mean, that's the number one thing that people tell me as well. It's like, you just come at this from such a different vantage point where it's just so positive and welcoming and like, wow, I've never thought, never thought like that before. Never heard that from somebody else. And it's because I mean, not to get into the medical space, largely speaking, but

The medical space wants to keep you in pain. Like a hundred billion dollars each year spent on back pain. And it's like, yeah, it's a problem for you, but it's profit for them. And at the end of the day, it's a business for them. Like that's all it comes down to. And especially when you're working with people who they haven't necessarily gone through it themselves. Like if it's a physical therapist or

a spine surgeon, they're not, they haven't necessarily gone through it. And I think that's a huge opening within the health and wellness and the medical space of working with people who have gone through exactly what you've gone through. And that's what people need to be searching for, whether that's literally just doing Google searches or on Instagram. It's not so much of who's the person in

Speaker 1 (53:50.882)

the medical space who just like deals with these types of things. But it's like, who is the person who has gone through exactly what I've gone through and has gotten past it because that is what I need in my life, right?

Yeah. And also there were moments in your journey where you wanted to give up too, right? And you trusted, there goes one of your words again, and you were disciplined in your approach, but you also listened. And when the right message came to you, you heard it just like the flipped up the script around pain. When you were able to hear the message it was willing to give you, you then could alchemize it into this methodology.

and into the work that you do, right? Like what's so interesting about your story is you aren't separate from what you're doing. You are a part of it. And that's why they feel it so powerfully from you is you are not only showing them the way, you are the way.

Yeah.

and you can't fake that.

Speaker 1 (54:56.084)

No, and this was been such a slow unfolding. Like, I couldn't have done this three or four years ago, or I didn't have the thought of after I healed and was out of pain, like, I'm gonna start coaching people through this. Like, I never had that thought. And like I said, it took another person to give me that nudge and that push of like, dude, this is something you need to be doing. And I was like, like I never thought of it.

I always just thought like, my story can really help people and never thought that I would be working with people one-on-one. And I think that makes it much more natural and raw and authentic where I didn't have the thought or the belief right away of I'm getting right into this. Like I put up like a little promo on the podcast series for my back series and it shows like the eight episodes in the trailer.

from two years ago and then like, hey, I'm back two years later. I actually have a coaching program now where I'm helping people. So it shows like, there was like some time in between here that obviously some type of evolution happened. He continued to learn. He continued to put this stuff into practice and now he's coming back rather than, all right, within the span of a month or so, okay,

I healed, here's my story coaching program. Because that's not possible to be able to do that and be able to do it in a way that is aligned with you but also is the forefront and the most important thing, me being able to help you.

Yeah. I'm curious. So you have a podcast, you're also a coach. And do you believe that all of this has unfolded in a divine kind of way in the sense of like, do you believe everything happens for a reason?

Speaker 1 (56:55.18)

Yeah, I I definitely think I'm being divinely guided and I think I've always been a spiritual person. I grew up Catholic. I go to church every single week. but I've definitely become more spiritual after my entire experience with my back where, okay, now I'm really being divinely guided. Like this is divinely guided work. And like we've talked about, like I've shared my story so much now and enough time has passed.

where like this happened five years ago, where there are parts of me where like, it doesn't even feel like I'm the one who experienced it, but I'm the messenger to be able to share this entire story and this work where it's like, I'm like, sometimes I have to like think like, wow, like, yeah, I did go through that. Wow. Like I was, I, yeah, I went through that. I can't believe it because I've shared the story so much that it's like, to a large degree, it's like become more of a story rather than something that I experienced it. And

It's something I need to remind myself of like, no, like, dude, like that was your life. Like that is something you lived, but it's so special because I know a lot of people because the thought that I had as well was, all right, I'm not the first one who has dealt with a lot of chronic back pain and then use this mind body approach. There have been a lot of people and the thought that I had though was like, how could I just go back to my normal life of everything that I was doing after this?

and not like talk about this more or share about this because I was like, can change people's lives. Like I know people was like, oh yeah, this would help me. And then they just go back to their, you know, who they were. And I'm like, no, this completely changed my makeup as a person. I guess I wouldn't use the word change because I think all the attributes of who I am as a person I've always had and I've always known, but this allowed me to unlock myself and have the...

confidence and security to be like, right, like it's time to let those parts of your out, let those parts of yourself out onto the surface and like be who you truly are.

Speaker 2 (59:04.226)

Yeah, I mean, it goes back to your evolution of the words, right? You're still all of those things, which you were probably at a young age as well. But as you've evolved as a human, those words have taken on new meaning and new energy in your life.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think it's one of the biggest things that everyone deals with. You know, we can be a social chameleon at times and me, especially in college, I think there were times where I'm just kind of fitting into the environment here, which I'm glad that I did, but I always knew there was like a piece of me like, Ooh, there feels like a piece of me that I'm giving away that I don't want to, or like, I'm like, this is coming at a price of me not

being who I truly am and going through all this pain, this physical pain, and a lot of the people I talk with, it's the same thing with them where they go through some type of unwilling challenge or suffering or whatever it is. And because you go through that, you're like, all right, the stress of being who I truly am is nothing compared to all the stress and the pain that I was dealing with as well. And I felt that as well where I was like,

I just kinda have a I don't give a fuck mentality when it comes to life now.

It's also very heroes journey-esque.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27.768)

See you at the of the

And it goes back to, you know, your love of writing and your love of storytelling. And, you know, I think that's what also primed you for you putting your story out into the world. Right. Like that feels divine in and of itself for you to have gone to school for that, for you to have had the chronic back pain and for you to be essentially not going to the gym, which rewrote your entire narrative around how you held space for all of those classes.

Yeah. And what I tell people is and the way that I see it is that I wouldn't have been as creative as I am now or be so creatively energized and driven if I didn't go through that because my focus before that was just very one dimensional of this is who this isn't who I was like as a person but like by the stuff that I was doing you'd be like, it's just like

And you're writing.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29.23)

It's a gym bro. Like he just loves to work out a lot. And like that was just my main focus. I was obsessed on, I'm just trying to perform and execute in the gym as much as I possibly can. Yeah. Disciplines. Like that's where it came in. Like discipline. I am the workout guy. When that got taken away, it was like, Ooh, like I need to stimulate myself in other ways. And that's where

the plinth.

Speaker 1 (01:01:57.614)

the writing and like you said, I was an English major came into play where, oh wow, I'm starting to actually enjoy this more. And this is a story actually that I shared in my second episode of my podcast where I was doing like a deep dive into my journey, like not just from chronic pain, but just my life in general. Like when I was going through this, I was in a Shakespeare seminar and it was right at the start of when I was dealing with everything. I was just like, man, I'm getting like,

beaten up, broken down, physical pain, like not feeling good. And I told this professor, I was like, hey, like, I'm gonna have to leave class early. Because I got to go to a doctor's appointment. And he's like, yeah, okay, like, sounds good. No worries. And this was during the COVID era. So it was on zoom. So I log out of class. And a girl in the class text me like 15 minutes later or so or whatever. And she said like, hey, like,

Professor Ozer, like right after you logged off, just like stopped mid seminar and was like, I just wanted to say like, Tim wrote a fine paper that you guys just submitted. And that did wonders for me because like that was like the only win it felt like I had had in such a long time after being in so much pain, all this terrible stuff happening.

And that's what really like that creative spark and that spark for writing like really started because I was like, obviously like anyone you love getting praise and you love seeing, you know, your work turn into a great result. And I was like, Ooh, like, I guess I kind of am a good writer or I can put some good stuff together. And this guy was like a Shakespeare, like this guy was known for his Shakespeare seminars, like within the world of academia. And I'm like, this isn't just some like

No name, dude, like this is some guy being like, this dude wrote a really good paper. And that's what created that spark for me. And that goes to that spiritual alignment as well, just things spiritually unfolding, because it was like, wow, like, I would have never had the interest in writing or reading and being creative or podcasting if I didn't go through that, because I would still just be focused on like, I'm a gym guy. Like that's just what I love to do. And when that was taken away,

Speaker 1 (01:04:23.144)

I had so much time on my hands, I was like, all right, I need to apply myself in other ways. And pain can be a real help for that actually. Like pain is a source for wisdom and for creative energy. And there was another class that I was in, which was also a divine intervention. Like when I was going through this, I was in a class called Poetics of Pain. And I'm like, all right, yeah, this is meant to be. Like you want to talk about storybook? Like, yeah, that's part of the storyline of...

I was in a class called Poetics of Pain learning about how physical pain and medical problems can be a real good source for poetry or people use those things to create their work around. I'm like, yeah, this is like what I'm supposed to be doing right now. This is exactly what I'm supposed to be feeling and what I'm supposed to be going through.

Yeah. Wow. That's honestly so incredible, the unfolding of it all. I do want to go back to that feeling that you had when that classmate texted you saying that the teacher gave you praise essentially in front of the entire class and you weren't even there.

Yeah, I I think the other thing that I thought was, wow, that girl didn't have to text that. Like I could have never known. Like, if I didn't get that text message, I would have never known because the professor wouldn't have told me or I just wouldn't have. I would have never known that that interaction took place where this professor just stopped mid tracks and what he was saying was like, Tim wrote a phenomenal paper.

Yeah, but you would have never known if your sister hadn't told you that her friend had this mind body thing. And that's how he changed his relationship with pain. And going back to the text again, that feeling you felt when you received it from that teacher, that praise from that teacher is exactly likely the same feeling you give to other people when you tell them there is a way.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22.709)

100%. Yeah, and that's one of the most special things that I can do for people where it's like, all right, you've probably been to a lot of different doctors, a lot of different specialists, a lot of different physical therapists. And it's like, all right, you got something wrong here. This we're going to try to do to solve it. And they most likely haven't gone through it themselves. So there's that level of detachment.

and they see an ungodly number of patients on a daily and weekly basis. So it's like, all right, yep, this is just the next person up. So it's like, yeah, this is we're going to do. for me, it's, well, I've personally gone through this. And instead of just like, yeah, you got a problem here, so this is what we're going to do. We're like, something really special has happened to you here. I know you don't see it because you're just

and so much pain, but take it from somebody who has been through the entire process. Like you've just been handed a real gift and now it's time to unwrap that with the work that we're doing.

Dang. Okay, I have one more thing to ask you and then we'll wrap it up. So, I want to go back to something that like a big moment for you. And you recounted it in one of your episodes as well, which was in your senior year, your dad gave you a letter. And there were some lines in this letter that resonated with you. And you can paraphrase them if you want. But I wonder how the truth of that letter unfolds even to now.

Because you reflected on it at the time looking back. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Speaker 1 (01:08:08.098)

Yeah. You're saying, how is that letter even changed more so now for my understanding of it? It's a good question. I think the answer to that is just me reflecting back on me reflecting back on it. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Yeah. So like, I'm reflecting back on who that person was just a year or so, a year ago.

or so, rather than the actual letter. And I'm like, wow, those are two very different people, where have grown so much more and started doing so much more that would not have thought could unfold as quickly as it has. So it's not so much just me thinking about the letter specifically.

but me looking back on that person who reflected on the letter and talking about the letter. And that's also a big reason why I love podcasting and looking back on previous episodes because I can like go back and sort of embody who that past version of myself was while still also embodying who I am today and feel that progression and that change. And I think that's

The greatest gift that a lot of people aren't giving themselves is documenting some type of portion of their life publicly so that they can then look back and see how things have unfolded. Because when you're just pushing forward, it's impossible to do that. Like you're just like, okay, I'm just, you know, in the present and I'm going to continue to, you know, move forward in my life. You need to be able to have things documented.

whether that's written reflections, videos, photos that you can look back on and be like, wow, like things have changed. And it goes back to what we were talking about at the very start with like the degrees. Like you like only one degree change and then, all right, yeah, the ice is starting to melt. You don't understand. You're not able to see the degrees changing in real time. It's not until you look back and be like, oh, look at how

Speaker 1 (01:10:36.92)

things have unfolded here and then you can connect the dots. And it's been so incredible to be able to do that with sharing my voice and sharing stories that at the end of the day, just feel so internally fulfilling for me. And then, I mean, on top of that, for people to also tell me how it's helped them so much is just incredible as well.

And I feel like the sentiment of what your dad shared in that letter to you was exactly that in the past.

Yeah, yeah, great point. Yeah.

Okay, so I have one last question that I ask everybody at the end, but before I do that, I wonder if there's anything you wish I had asked that I didn't.

We talked about it a little and I'm obviously like I have a podcast too. So I'm big into asking questions and something that I had for a thought, I think I've asked one person it is what do you, what's one thing that you see as both a strength and a weakness? Like that thing has helped you, but it's also hurt you as well.

Speaker 2 (01:11:45.902)

Are you asking me this?

No, just, no, no, no, I'm not asking you it. I'm saying like, if that was one thing that you asked me, I thought that would have been an interesting question. And we talked about it little at the start where I was saying like, yeah, discipline has really helped me, but it's also been like a lack of spontaneity in certain points. So I think it's just like an interesting component of it. Like the things that can help us can also hurt us. And it's just understanding that duality.

and the duality of really everything. There's two sides or more sides to almost everything. But you become paralyzed in the one side. It's like the pain. Essentially what you're doing is you're giving them another option to relate to the thing they only thought they had one option to relate to it with.

And the other thing I'll say is, and I've always been like this, these are things that I've experienced and this is work that I do, but like, this isn't who I am. Like I'm not the back pain guy. I'm not a podcaster. These are just things that really fulfill me and feel aligned with me and interest me, but I'll never be like, this is who I am. And I feel like at certain points when I was younger, that's what I did where I was like the workout guy, not fully.

But like I did like a lot of branding around like my Instagram handle used to be Jim Doyle, like G-Y-M Doyle. And that kind of like became my nickname, like, hey, what's up, Jim? And I loved it at the start because like, all right, like that's really what I'm trying to grow like within like the fitness space. And then I got to a point where like I started to evolve on like, like, I don't like that actually. Like it's so confining and I...

Speaker 1 (01:13:31.81)

Definitely gotten to a point now where I'm just like, these are things that feel aligned and what I love to do, but like this isn't ever going to be like who I am because maybe we'll get to a point where, you know, I'm not podcasting or I'm not working with people on back pain. It's just like knowing, being present and doing things in the moment that feel really aligned and then allowing things to continue to unfold because now I'm a big believer as well. like, I can't predict anything. Like if you told me where I'm going to be in five years,

I literally have zero clue. But that's the beauty of it where you don't need an answer.

That's beautiful. And it leads right nicely into our final question, which is, if you could boil it down to one component, one action, or one belief that you think it takes to live a joy-filled life, what would it be and why?

Listen to yourself more. I don't think we listen to ourselves enough where, or we'll listen to ourselves and then we'll try to come up with counteracting points for why that isn't what we should be thinking or listening to for what we should be doing in life. And you need to follow your intuition because that is truly what

has guided me throughout life where it always comes back to intuition, whereas that is what allowed for the most incredible things to unfold for

Speaker 2 (01:14:57.11)

Okay, a really quick follow-up. How the heck do you listen to yourself?

I've, I said this on another podcast because I think it's something that can really help people because instead of giving some type of like answer or like, like this way you do. I'm like, here's something that you can actually do that I think will help you to listen to yourself, listen to yourself, go for a daily walk and listen to the thoughts that will just naturally arise. When you have that low grade physical activity that

allows for lot of mental stimulation, thoughts will just naturally arise and tap into those thoughts and be curious about those thoughts and start listening to them. And that's some of that I think people can do where it's like, here's an actual activity that this will help you.

Phenomenal. Thank you so much for answering that. So we'll end with gratitudes, takeaways, and we'll say goodbye. So I always end with, I say some number of gratitudes, you'll say gratitudes, and then we each identify a takeaway from the conversation and then we're good. I'll start. I'm gonna do two gratitudes. This is generally my trend for some reason. And the first gratitude is always the person that I have on because without you this wouldn't.

be a thing, right? My dream was to try to hold space for people's stories and your truth and your rawness and your openness to everything that you shared today with everything that you shared today helped to make that become a little bit more of a reality in terms of bringing my dream to life. So thank you so much for that. And I really love how this conversation unfolded. I feel like we got some juicy bits of stuff that maybe wasn't released to the world until right now. And so I'm so grateful for that. I'm also just grateful for

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the people in Austin. mean, like, I feel like it is such a special energetic place where people are trying to put out good things in the world and trying to really embody that energy in a really true sense. And so hearing your story today made me realize that that's true for you. But that's true of so many people here, right? walk the, they walk the talk here.

Right? It's not, they don't just say it and not do it. No, no, no, no. They live it. And to be around people that do that is truly inspiring.

couldn't agree with you more. mean, gratitude for me, incredibly grateful for you. I mean, I love having conversations like this. It's like one of my favorite things to do. Just having deep conversations where you allow people just to share their experiences, share their stories. It's just a very stimulating experience. And that's a large reason why I wanted to do podcasting as well.

to be able to give that experience to other people, but I also benefit from that so much too. grateful for Austin as well. mean, my first two are the same as you, but yeah, I mean, just such a remarkable environment, such a remarkable energy. I mean, you truly feel people wear their heart on their sleeve here. And that's not to say that people don't do that in other parts of the country, but it's just...

something that you see on a much more frequent basis, I think here, which is just remarkable. third thing that I'm grateful for, gratitude. I mean, it always just comes back to, you know, my health, like my entire experience that I went through, what I was incredibly grateful for and what gave me peace of mind was my life was never like,

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I was never fearful for my life. Like this was never a life or death thing. Like this was a very painful thing, but I was never scared of like, this might actually end your life. And so I'm so much gratitude for my health. that's something that, you know, it's easy for me to, you know, talk about my story and be like, this is such a hard thing that I went through. Like there are things that are so much harder to go through.

that people would be like, yeah, I would have traded places with that guy in a heartbeat to deal with seven months of pain. And that never, I never lose sight of that. And so my health and just my life in general, you know, so much gratitude for.

Incredible. Thank you for sharing those. My takeaway from this conversation was honestly like the arc of it. Like this whole episode was just, it did this like thing where it swirled, right? So like we would say a truth and then it would come back to it. And then we'd say another truth and it would come back to it. And like that's how you know things are deeply aligned is when it just keeps coming back.

to the words that you chose and the letter that your dad wrote and the fact that you were an English major. It all has unfolded so beautifully, this podcast, but also your story. Another little takeaway that I love is your reframe on pain. And you could use that same reframe for really anything you struggle with, trauma, hardship, suffering, pain, all of it. And I think that's really powerful.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more with the connecting dots throughout the entire conversation. Like I literally had, I was in like flow state throughout the entire conversation basically, but I had like the thought consciously, like while I was saying it, it was like, we started talking about the degrees at the start of the conversation. And then one of my final points was talking about the degrees and it just naturally allowed for that to happen. And I was like, Whoa, like look at what we just created here.

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like, look at this massive arc that just like from start to finish and how it just like kind of book ended in a way. So, yeah, I mean, and my other biggest takeaway was that it just naturally unfolded and just flowed so nicely. And I have no idea how long we've been talking for, which is the most incredible part about it, where it's just like you have no sense of time and

You're truly just in flow state.

Yeah, that's where the magic happens. Tim, it has been an absolute pleasure and privilege to hold space for and with you today. And I'm so happy to have captured a little bit of the journey of your life and your story.

honored and it's been incredible talking with you today as well. you.

so much.