#093 - Dr. Alla Shapiro - The Doctor Who Was Sent Into Chernobyl Without Warning

Dr. Alla Shapiro was a pediatric hematologist in Kiev when she was sent as a first responder to Chernobyl, unprepared and misled by a government determined to hide the truth. She shares the stark contrast between the official story and the reality she faced, both as a doctor and a mother. After immigrating to the U.S., she rebuilt her medical career from the ground up. Years later, she was diagnosed with cancer, likely caused by radiation exposure, and found herself on the other side of the care she had spent a lifetime providing. Her story is a reflection on resilience, responsibility, and what it means to keep moving through the unknown.

To learn more about Dr. Alla Shapiro and her story, I recommend reading her book Doctor on Call: Chernobyl Responder, Jewish Refugee, Radiation Expert (published by Mandel Vilar Press)

Timestamps:
00:00 Understanding Chernobyl
09:34 Alla's Work As A First Responder
16:12 Story vs. Reality 
24:38 The Biggest Conflict Of A Chernobyl Doctor
29:30 The Inversion Of The Unknown
36:10 Chernobyl As A Mother
42:09 Transitioning Out Of Being A First Responder
48:58 The Medical Reality Of Immigrating To America
1:00:43 Returning To Kiev
1:03:21 Being Diagnosed With Colon Cancer
1:06:54 Use Your Voice

Thank you so much for listening. I truly appreciate your time and support. Let me know what you thought of the episode and what you would like to see in the future. Any feedback would be awesome. Don't forget to subscribe for more exciting content on YouTube, and leave a review on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or whatever platform you are listening on.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Chernobyl
• 9:34 Alla's Work As A First Responder
• 16:12 Story vs. Reality
• 24:38 The Biggest Conflict Of A Chernobyl Doctor
• 29:30 The Inversion Of The Unknown
• 36:10 Chernobyl As A Mother
• 42:09 Transitioning Out Of Being A First Responder
• 48:58 The Medical Reality Of Immigrating To America
• 1:00:43 Returning To Kiev
• 1:03:21 Being Diagnosed With Colon Cancer
• 1:06:54 Use Your Voice

Transcript

Dr. Alla Shapiro was a pediatric hematologist in Kiev when she was sent as a first responder to Chernobyl, unprepared and misled by a government determined to hide the truth. She shares the stark contrast between the official story and the reality she faced, both as a doctor and a mother. After immigrating to the U.S., she rebuilt her medical career from the ground up. Years later, she was diagnosed with cancer, likely caused by radiation exposure, and found herself on the other side of the care she had spent a lifetime providing. Her story is a reflection on resilience, responsibility, and what it means to keep moving through the unknown. 

Tim Doyle (00:11.362)

What was your initial understanding of what happened at Chernobyl and what were you being asked to do in those immediate days thereafter?

Alla Shapiro (00:24.062)

Well, unfortunately, my answer is very short to this, but very direct. I didn't understand anything of what's happening and what to expect. And the worst thing, what to do on this part. Because first of all, we did not receive, we, I meant the medical community that I was part of. Medical community did not receive

any official information of what happened for days and days. We started hearing rumors, but nothing was official. And rumors mainly came from my colleagues who just occasionally had relatives or friends abroad. And abroad, this was already, people already were on high alert.

especially in northern Europe because the plume from radiation from the exposure from the key went to Finland and other countries in northern Europe because where plume goes depends on winds and rains. So people are already there.

knew what happened and we all were in the dark.

Tim Doyle (01:56.504)

Yeah, it's interesting. So from an outsider's perspective, the outsiders understood the dark reality of it and you guys were blind to that reality.

Alla Shapiro (02:06.93)

Yes, yes. And you know, and I have some confirmation of that, that for example, people, Polish people who lived in Poland, very close with the border of the Ukraine, they became aware of what's going on and they started throwing away milk because milk came from cows and cows were eating grass.

And all radiation just fell on the ground and on the trees and on the bushes. So this happened in the first 24 hours. our Soviet government at the time, and Ukrainian government as well, were giving people opposite directions, opposite instructions. They said everything is good. Go to the woods. Pick up berries.

pick up mushrooms and go outside and just have fun outdoors.

Tim Doyle (03:13.302)

Up until that point, what did your work look like within the medical space and what did you envision the future path of your work was going to look like if Chernobyl had never happened?

Alla Shapiro (03:28.778)

You know, Chernobyl, the catastrophe happened on the weekend and I stayed home Saturday and Sunday and life as usual. And then I came to my, it was not my office. It was the room where six other physicians sat and this was a public room and we had only one phone, no cell phones. just.

was one landline phone in the office. And we all came to work without any knowledge of anything. And we even didn't have time to chat with each other. You know, when you're not at work over the weekend, you're missing what happened to your patients. And we all were just occupied by what we're going to do in our hospital with our patients.

And then the phone rang and I was the one just again accidentally was sitting at the desk where the landline was and I picked up the phone and this was the director of the Institute of Hematology of Blood Diseases where I worked, where I was employed. And his first question was,

who is on call this month and what he meant that who is on call to go to any areas in Ukraine. This was one of our obligations. split it with our medical personnel, six women split it the year in some parts. So everyone had two months when we were

on call and this did not pertain being on call at the hospital. This pertains to be available to go to the any area of Ukraine day or night, rain or shine, where doctors needed our help. And our institute was the main institute in Ukraine. So we had

Alla Shapiro (05:55.199)

well-trained personnel. And if anywhere in Ukraine, village, city, there was a case, for example, patient was sick and nothing helped with the treatment or some other problems, they called our personnel. And April was the month when I was on call. So I replied, I am on call. And he said,

And this was a director. And this was a little suspicious, but we didn't know what to make out of it because just it was a regular procedure when usually clerk would call and say, who is on call? The airplane takes this airplane or the driver will come and pick you up and take you to this.

place where you're needed the most. But this time the director called and again, it was little unusual, but he said in two hours the ambulance will come pick you up and will take you to the place. And he hung up. I even didn't have time to ask where am I going? But people who were in the room, they overheard.

my conversation with the director. And one of my colleagues asked me, where are you going? I said, I don't know. He didn't say. And she said, do you really want to go? And I said, well, it's not a matter of choice. It's my month. And she said, you know, if you can't, I can go. And then if,

will be my turn, then you will go for me." And I said, yeah, that's fine. And I was relieved because for that evening I had plans with my family. But of course, this was a priority. But since I had a very good person, I knew that the patient, it usually only was one patient, will be in good hands. And I agreed that she will go. And then the ambulance came.

Alla Shapiro (08:20.348)

Within two hours and my colleague. Said goodbye to everybody. Of course, not knowing when she's going to be back and when she and where she going. And she left. So this was how it was postponed for a couple of days for me to becoming the really, really first hours first days responder, but.

I became, I caught up with this delay and I became a first physician responder, I think a week from what happened, from the catastrophe.

Tim Doyle (09:06.222)

So the specific work that you were doing as a first responder, how similar or different was that from the work that you were doing within your medical experience up until that point?

Alla Shapiro (09:21.204)

Yeah, this was very different because I was trained to become a pediatric hematologist, meaning the pediatrician who takes care of very difficult, most of the time, deadly diseases. I was trained for that. And I knew what I was doing when I was dealing with the patients. But dealing with

children who were exposed to radiation, I didn't know what to do. But I was assigned as a team leader for so-called field team. And I had two physicians who were under my supervision. And we were sent several times to the most contaminated areas in Ukraine.

And our job there was just to examine the patients, children at that time. And they all were living very close. The kids originally lived in Pripyat. It's where the Unit 4, where the reactor exploded. I just want to...

clarify that the accident around the world has a name Chernobyl accident. But the nuclear power plant is and was located in Pripyat, which is a few miles from Chernobyl. But because Chernobyl is the largest city, the closest largest city, the accident acquired the name Chernobyl accident.

So children from Pripyat were evacuated in first 36 hours. Lots of them went to Kiev, where I worked at that hospital. And over there, my responsibilities were different. And I went with my field team to the places that were very close to the area of Pripyat. And those places on the map, there was a color code map.

Alla Shapiro (11:47.899)

I didn't know anything about that. Where are we going? And only years, years or decades after when I continue with this passion all my life and I got this color coded map and the places where I went with my team were colored in dark red, just angry red colors, meaning they were so.

We went there with two other doctors to examine the patients who were evacuated from the dangerous area. But none of these patients acquired acute radiation syndrome. I just also wanted to make this very clear to the listener to break some myths that are quite few.

about Chernobyl. So none of the children had acute radiation syndrome because children who lived in that area, they receive quite high dose of radiation, but not enough dose to trigger acute radiation syndrome. Lots of children, they...

the real number about 7,000 children, the true number again, in three republics like Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia reached 7,000 cases in children from three years old to teenagers. So this was the main disease the children acquired.

while being there. But when we came, of course, it took several years to develop cancer of thyroid gland. And at that time, nothing was noticeable. So children suffered from what regular children will have, cough, congestion, sinus diseases, or gastrointestinal diseases.

Alla Shapiro (14:15.593)

very, but a lot of them were coughing and we realized again without being, without having any knowledge, just doctors use their intuition. And one of the doctors said they are coughing because they probably inhaled radiation. And this was correct because when we start playing the game with children,

giving, them on the bed and making a like a tent out of sheets, putting children there because you know to convince lots of children to do what we want them to do, it's impossible. So we just start like playing the game. You're here under the tent, you're jumping on the bed, please do. And we brought

tanks with oxygen and children started inhaling oxygen and they felt much better. So this how different my...

Alla Shapiro (15:26.545)

obligations were from what I used to do for 10 years. I worked at this institute in the pediatric department for 10 years.

Tim Doyle (15:37.26)

Yeah, exposed to a completely different type of work than you were prepared for. And it's an interesting point that I actually wasn't aware of that, that difference between Chernobyl and Pripyat and how Chernobyl became the identifier for this. And I'm showing, you know, my US identity and my US culture that I didn't know about that because

Alla Shapiro (15:42.857)

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (16:05.07)

especially within the US, but it just seems like the world as a whole that I would assume like we understand this at Chernobyl. And I think that's an interesting, not just an interesting point, but a really important point that gets. Yeah, it gets into this breakdown, especially I feel like within US culture of. We understand Chernobyl kind of as this event in this story in this.

Alla Shapiro (16:16.885)

Yeah, it's important,

Tim Doyle (16:34.72)

it's become a drama, dramatized and kind of like a media spectacle when in reality, like this is a historical event and this is a tragedy to understand that gap, I guess, between story and reality a little bit more. What was the story that was being communicated to you and the people as a whole?

you know, who were like on the grounds, like living this, you know, compared to what was really going on.

Alla Shapiro (17:11.723)

Yeah, all the orders came from the government. Even medical orders came from government, which is absolutely not supposed to be. Government sent to the people just total lies about everything. The first time when

the population heard about Chernobyl was on May 10. It's when, and this happened on April 26. So on May 10, for the first time Gorbachev, Soviet leader, was on the national TV. And he said, an accident happened in Pripyat. The nuclear reactor exploded. However, everything is under control.

This was the official information, 14, almost 14 days after. But between the explosion and this May 10, there were other instructions from the government, and in particular about going to the May 1st

May 1st parade was a big deal in the former Soviet Union. People had demonstration, well, demonstration in the sense that they just mainly were happy that there is a Labor Day and it was always a national holiday. So people were, did not go to work for, I for two days.

and always went to this parade. And parade always was outside. Now, central streets, the largest places where lots of people were dressed into the national Ukrainian outfit, and they were dancing and singing and walking for hours outdoors. And this was an official

Alla Shapiro (19:37.275)

order. Don't stay home because everything is good. Go outside and participate in parade and that would happen and I witnessed that because this parade walked thousands of people along the main streets and my apartment building where I lived was one of the main streets by

But that time I already knew from my colleagues who worked with radiation, who called me and said, stay indoor and especially don't let your daughter to go outside. Because the level of radiation in the air is very high. Moreover, the radiation in the tap water was so high.

that my friend and colleagues suggested go to this store and get water to cook and don't even use the tap water to brush your teeth. So I knew that part and I locked my daughter who was three years old at the time at home and I was watching this parade demonstration.

with thousands of people walking along the streets. So this was one. There were many of such. And the assurance go to the woods. And this go to the woods, it was for people who live in the Chernobyl Pripyat area. Go to the woods, get mushrooms, get go.

fishing, but mushrooms were the most dangerous product concerning radiation because the mycelium of the mushrooms absorbs the radiation from the ground or from soil and from the grass. So going and eating, picking up and then eating the mushrooms, was, you know, it's a

Alla Shapiro (22:03.647)

deadly order, but people believe it because the Communist Party leaders are conveying that. So this was another horrible order.

Tim Doyle (22:17.89)

Yeah, remarkable.

Alla Shapiro (22:21.343)

Yeah. And also.

Tim Doyle (22:22.38)

Remarkable literally.

No, go ahead. Sorry.

Alla Shapiro (22:29.811)

No, please, if I am too long, you interrupt me and ask more questions.

Tim Doyle (22:33.814)

I was just gonna say, mean, remarkable, literally trying to concoct a new reality, like trying to just artificially create a new story and a new narrative. And like I said, a new reality. But what I think is fascinating is that, okay, so the government tries to take those actions to...

you know, have people believe that everything's fine here. But on the flip side of that.

Alla Shapiro (23:06.027)

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (23:09.292)

On the flip side of that, what I appreciate about your writing is that while like small actions, still very important to make note of because it shows the true reality. And what I mean by that is you highlighting, which I found really fascinating was, you know, distinguished and high level people and government officials evacuating very early on.

Alla Shapiro (23:23.924)

Yes.

Tim Doyle (23:39.602)

and libraries taking out books and medical journals with materials on radiation so people weren't able to, you know, get that material for you. I mean, what was it like trying to, you know, like your job was, okay, I'm a doctor. I'm supposed to take care of people. and I'm supposed to, you know, be transparent and truthful with people, but also

playing within this bigger story and this bigger environment where like, okay, I need to be careful here and I need to, you know, play within the lanes, so to speak, so I don't, you know, step out of line. Like, how did you balance that very stressful and challenging duality?

Alla Shapiro (24:29.983)

This was one of the most difficult parts for me because the government and my bosses from this hematology institute were very direct. If you start telling people what's really going on, you will lose your job. And losing a job in the former Soviet Union is different.

from losing job in the United States. Here you lost the job, you applied a different one. Over there, it was not the case. If you lost your job, you would never come back to the same level of your profession. But there were cases when I really ignored that because, and I can just give an example, it was one of the visits to this.

another most contaminated areas. And I arrived there and the nurse said to me, I will, we will go and you will examine patients. And there were hundreds of patients from the school children. And she said to me, let's go through the kitchen. It's a short cut and follow me. And we're in the kitchen at the hospital.

which was leading adjacent to one of the schools. And when I was passing along one of the corridors, I noticed the autoclave, which supposed to, it's a machine for cleaning, disinfecting the surgical equipment, which each hospital had that. And the door of this

Autoclave were opened. And when I looked inside, I saw a little rope with mushrooms hanging off the little rope. So people and this and I froze. I became speechless when I saw that because I knew that mushrooms are deadly.

Alla Shapiro (26:50.859)

to eat. And this was in the hospital, in the machine where, or the appliance rather, where nurses put their surgical equipment to disinfect. But the goal of this innovation was just to dry the mushrooms for winter.

And again, this was a popular move. We all did it. Pick up the mushrooms in the woods on a good days. And this was one of the most popular dish in Ukraine. And then for them not to survive till winter so people can use them in winter, we just put it, in my case, on the balcony of the apartment building, and they just dry.

No autoclaves. But when I saw that, I said, please take these mushrooms off. Throw them away just as far from where you stay. And clean these appliance as good as you can. So this was my contribution into not listening.

to the direct orders.

Tim Doyle (28:17.646)

I mean, such a delicate balancing act. couldn't imagine trying to do the job to the best of your capabilities and being a medical professional and understanding yourself as a healer and trying to help people while also needing to play within this larger, you know, falsehood and this narrative.

Alla Shapiro (28:23.317)

Yeah.

Tim Doyle (28:47.402)

One thing that really struck me through understanding your story is this inversion of the unknown. Like in most situations, people have a fear of the unknown and we, we enjoy certainty. Like we enjoy that comfort of feeling like we know what the next step is going to be. But with Chernobyl, the unknown, you know, like

sending children away, leaving everything behind, not knowing what life is going to look like if you do leave, you know, the life that you had. That was, you know, albeit hard, like that was a safer decision to make than understanding the certainty and reality of what was going to happen if you just continue to live that life.

Alla Shapiro (29:46.835)

Yeah, this just to summarize what you brought up, it's all valid and important, but to summarize the total unpreparedness of the entire country from government, different levels of government lies from the top bureaucrats to the

bureaucrats on the bottom of this ladder, plus total unpreparedness of medical personnel. And of course, the population of entire Soviet Union. There was no, absolutely no knowledge of the harm of radiation, real knowledge. There were no preparedness.

how to detect and how to respond. And this is what I'm trying hard for 30 years, 35 years rather, since I came to the United States and been in this field all my career in the United States. I try to do everything I can to promote this idea that

the government should not play down any disasters. There are things that we must know and I didn't even touch upon the psychological stress from the disaster because for, and Chernobyl is included because for decades the scientists around the world, not just in the...

US, Soviet, former Soviet Union, we are only discussing the rate of cancers of different organs what were caused by radiation. But nobody really paid any attention until 2005 about psychological effects or harm.

Alla Shapiro (32:07.677)

of disaster, each disaster doesn't matter which one, COVID or radiation caused psychological wounds. And without addressing this, we are ruining life of families and future generation. So now our knowledge about this are different.

And for the first time, I saw that in 2005 when I was attending World Health Organization meeting in Geneva. I came with a presentation on behalf of Food and Drug Administration related to developing of countermeasures against radiation. And the first big post that caught my attention in

Geneva was that the main danger that unleashed after Chernobyl is psychological damage. And from that moment, you know, the world, although I'm an oncologist, the world just turned upside down for me. And I became realizing and promoting how important to preserve

psychological, to give psychological protection, especially to the vulnerable population, which are elderly people, children, and pregnant women. So this is another very important point that I would like to bring up.

Tim Doyle (34:00.672)

Yeah, I mean, especially I would say especially for children where the you know, when you're in those formative years growing up and you have this event that will be with you for your entire life now and needing to navigate that and like in a lot of ways, maybe like unconsciously, like just not even knowing how it's affecting you and how it will come up later in your life and how it will manifest in different ways.

Alla Shapiro (34:05.93)

Yeah.

Alla Shapiro (34:14.629)

Right. Right. Right.

Alla Shapiro (34:27.051)

Yeah, but the studies were done decades after Chernobyl.

The results of this study show that the increased level of depression, anxiety, suicide, and post-traumatic stress disorder, these are the main psychological impact from the disaster, from any disaster. But if you are prepared, if you are taking care of these people, not just

during the disaster, which is very important, but days after, this is really paramount of everything. Days after disaster, you have to follow up with these population and continue protecting them.

Tim Doyle (35:27.384)

You not only had to navigate Chernobyl as a doctor and a first responder, but also as a mother, and you had to make the challenging decision to have your daughter evacuated. What was that experience like for you?

Alla Shapiro (35:49.117)

In one word, maybe it's a nightmare to come up with this decision and then to execute this decision. And again, the population, including first responders, did not know where this hot, meaning very contaminated area in Ukraine. But we already knew that Kiev is one of the.

worth places. And then the question came up, yes, we need to take to send our daughter somewhere to the safe place. But we didn't know where the safe place is. And because again, luck and connections, the one of the neighbors

from the apartment building where we lived was a PhD at the Institute of Physics. And he brought this color code map, which was put together by the physicist. And he showed this map to us. And we saw where this.

bright red or even purple areas where, and then we saw that the city, name Kharkiv, now it's dangerous city because of the war, but at that time it was very clean city. Again, it was, you know, just accidentally the plume just didn't go there. And luckily one of our

relative lived there and we got in touch with her and she said, yes, bring your daughter and she can stay with me as long as you want. But of course, three years, we couldn't give three years old to the unknown, even relative. So my mother and my mother-in-law, two of them, went with my daughter, trained overnight, took them.

Alla Shapiro (38:13.035)

to Kharkiv and my daughter got sick right before the day before this evacuation and I was very concerned and I asked my boss, I go just overnight to make sure that she could get there? Okay, and then I'll come back in the morning and he said, no, if you leave, don't come back. We need you here.

So I didn't go, but everything turned okay.

Tim Doyle (38:49.851)

In the moment, how long were you separated from your daughter when you were still working?

Alla Shapiro (38:58.249)

Yeah, would say approximately. I don't know, have now very direct numbers, exact numbers. I would say maybe five or six months she was without us, but few times when it was possible, we visited her. But again, for one day and then I had to come back because the shifts.

especially at the beginning when lots of children came to the hospital where I worked, hundreds, hundreds of children, they were just nonstop. They were coming to the hospital for evaluation. So each of us, I mean the doctors, pediatricians, worked shifts three strict days and three nights, neither before or after, even in the US in the residency.

I didn't work three days in a row. everybody did that. And our family brought us food and clean clothes. this, it was our shift and nothing that we could have done. And what was another thing that is very different.

in the US. Over there, the upbringing of person was if you're weak, you're weak, nobody would hire you. And if during this 48th plus 24, 72 hours shift, you want to not lay down, sit down and sleep, and your colleague

would say, no, you can't. It's very selfish to do things like that. So this was another lesson that I learned that it's not absolutely not right. If you are working hard, you have to take care of yourself. that would, again, what I'm trying to promote. But in the US, it's totally the opposite.

Tim Doyle (41:25.528)

So when you were still in Chernobyl at that time, what did the transition out of that first responder work look like?

Alla Shapiro (41:41.117)

I just want to a little bit correct. I was not in Chernobyl itself. I was in the little cities and villages that were the area where children were evacuated and just happened that they were the worst on that map.

So I'm sorry, missed the question.

Tim Doyle (42:08.898)

Yes. So what was the transition out of that first responder work? Like when you, I guess, were not so much, obviously not getting back to your sense of normalcy, but like, okay, I'm not doing that type of first responder work anymore. But like, what was the timeline where you transitioned out?

Alla Shapiro (42:28.757)

Mm-hmm.

Alla Shapiro (42:34.527)

Well, you know, it didn't depend on me. It's not that I said, I cannot do it anymore. I'm exhausted. No, it's just I'd never had this feeling of fear when I worked or real exhaustion except the three days and nights shift. But it was it became natural to work all day and then

during the night to go to the lab laboratory and read the blood tests of children that the nurses collected the blood. it's over time, this situation of being a first responder just resolved on its own. People were over the years, I stayed in my job for three years after.

Chernobyl and then I immigrated to the United States. But it's probably just the first year was very dedicated to first responder job. And then it became a regular back to my regular job, same hospital in Kiev. But the difference was that after two years,

we started seeing very infrequently children who developed leukemia. Leukemia is a malignant blood disease. All other cancers don't come so quickly. For thyroid cancer to have increased cases, it was like four, five, six years. But with leukemia, there were few cases of

children who were waiting for the buses outside their houses. And again, this was a poor preparedness. The population had an order to be evacuated within first 36 hours. And the buses were supposed to come early morning to take

Alla Shapiro (45:03.274)

children and adults and go to Kiev. Some buses did come on time in the morning and some buses came late at night. Again, because of unpreparedness. And children were playing for the entire day outside their houses because parents locked their apartment and houses.

gave the keys to whoever was there. And they're waiting for the buses. And this was sunny days. And there were a lot of sand in that area where children were playing in sand just under shower of radiation. And I saw the girl who was there for probably 10 hours.

playing outside. And there was another patient also, five or six year old. And after two two and a half years, they had symptoms that then evolved in the diagnosis of leukemia.

Tim Doyle (46:27.258)

And it was like readily apparent and people understood right away that correlation there between what happened with Chernobyl and that.

Alla Shapiro (46:37.567)

Yeah, nobody, right? No, no, no, we did not have, know, decades after we can put together knowledge, we can analyze facts, evidence, do some statistical research. But at that time, no, we did not. did not even know. We did not.

Tim Doyle (46:59.256)

People didn't understand the correlation.

Tim Doyle (47:06.382)

So for you personally, like you said, you immigrated to the US, you and your family. Chernobyl aside, do you think that you and your family still would have had the urgency to leave the Soviet Union and ultimately come to America?

Alla Shapiro (47:27.691)

Well, you know, I cannot answer this question. It's hard for me to answer because I came up with this decision 35 years ago, and I never had a minute of doubts even in the darkest moments for me in the US. I never had any doubts or regrets that we left.

cannot even imagine what, how would my family live, how would I grow up, grow my daughter. I didn't want her to go through what I went. So this was one of the reasons for us to leave.

Tim Doyle (48:15.33)

Yeah, I mean a massive benefit to making such a move like that or but just making any move in general and moving to a new environment. You know, you're able to reinvent yourself and create this new identity in this new life for yourself. That being said, though, I feel like that also did have some ramifications ramifications for you from a professional sense where

You were pretty much stripped of your medical identity and all of your credentials. How did you process that in the moment? And pretty much like coming to the harsh reality of needing to rebuild that life for you.

Alla Shapiro (49:02.729)

Yeah, you know, theoretically I was ready. I knew that the United States does not recognize any foreign medical diplomas that if I decide to be just continue research, then I don't need to go through recertification and relicensing. But if I or just anybody wants to be a practicing physician, then

must is to take either go back to medical school, but I was too old for that. And I was already PhD and I had 10 years of my career as a pediatrician and I was the assistant professor for the medical school. And of course, going to medical school was a little too late. So the other choice was

just prepare for all medical exams that medical students in the US must complete. So I did that and passed all the exams. And after that, I was able to do residency in pediatric at Georgetown University Hospital in Washington. And I completed that residency.

was one of the hardest career steps. And after that, I thought, well, I spent all my life being hematologist. I would like to continue. And instead of I was able to start any private practice or work at the hospital, but I wanted to continue my former career. So for that,

I spent three years at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, one of the leading places in the US and I guess in the world. And I completed fellowship in pediatric hematology oncology. So to my hematology, another profession that how it works in the US was added. So after three years of fellowship, became

Alla Shapiro (51:29.877)

pediatric hematologist oncologist. And so this was my career path in the US. And after that, I started working at the Food and Drug Administration. It's a division of oncology drug products. It was very interesting. I love what I was doing. And then September 11 hit. And Congress...

charged FDA with such a.

order to open the Division of Counterterrorism and Emergency Coordination. So this division, and this was totally new, never existed before. And the mission of that division was to help pharmaceutical companies, academia, private investigators to develop drugs against radiation. And since

After Chernobyl, was my passion and even obsession. I called the director of that office and they were looking for physicians with a background either in radiation or infectious diseases in case some disaster in the area of infectious diseases. And I was hired.

to that division and I spent 17 years working the medical officer. This division then grew into the office and became Office of Counterterrorism and Emergency Coordination. And I worked there for the rest of my career in the government.

Tim Doyle (53:34.926)

Truly, truly remarkable and inspiring and especially hearing you say like coming at it from a place of appreciation and an energy of just like understanding, okay, the US doesn't, you know, see my past credentials as something that can carry over and, not.

complaining, not saying, hey, this is unfair, but just understanding that it's the reality of the situation. And it's like, okay, I'm in a great country and now let me build this life for myself. like I said, it's just truly remarkable and inspiring. What I find interesting though about that, you know, going to what we were talking about earlier in our conversation about

Alla Shapiro (54:16.256)

in.

Tim Doyle (54:25.344)

In the past at Chernobyl, when you were first responder, you dealt with that dual tension between being a doctor and also being a mother and having to be separated from your daughter for five or six months. And I find it fascinating how you dealt with that same tension as well in the states of being a doctor and a mother and, you know, needing to build this new life.

from the ground up and like really needing to pour yourself into that identity as a doctor and you know, having that balancing act as well of like, okay, being a doctor, but also being a mother, like how did you balance that relationship?

Alla Shapiro (55:13.877)

Well, there were days and months when I didn't see my daughter at all because I was first year, especially first year of residency was very difficult. At that time, the shifts for the residents were 36 hours straight. It's different now, but when I was a resident, was the case. Everybody had to do this.

36 hour shift and then I came home and I had a little bit time to sleep to go back to work next day at six in the morning. So as I said, I and this was the first year of residency. Second and third were not so restricted in time, but it was very difficult. It was exhausting. There were

know, lots of things that I was not familiar with at the Soviet hospitals. The level of equipment in the US is much, much higher. there were cases that, for example, I even didn't know where to get ice. I was on the call with a senior resident. wasn't.

first year and the resident, chief resident was me on call and there's a little girl arrived. The ambulance brought her and my chief resident said, I will draw the blood and to get it's not in a good way. We need to put some ice in the vial. And she said to me, go get ice. And it's like two o'clock.

in the morning and it's my first call in the US. I have no idea where to get ice but of course common sense tells me it's in the kitchen in the freezer. So I went to kitchen where nurses few nurses were eating their I don't know lunch or breakfast at 2 AM and I opened the freezer and I saw this tray you know from

Alla Shapiro (57:40.639)

like 19th century with pieces of ice. And I thought, that's it. I got it and I took the tray, but the ice was, you like from ice age forever. So I turned it upside down and started hitting.

the table to the surface of the table to get ice. So the nurses stopped eating and asked, doctor, what are you doing? So they need ice. They said, well, there is an ice machine across in that corner, and you can get ice in any size and shape. So this kind of thing that, of course, now they look funny.

At that time, it was embarrassing.

Tim Doyle (58:32.568)

Yeah, the the cultural changes, it's it's remarkable, you know, like being able to be a doctor, but then also just like those small cultural intricacies.

Alla Shapiro (58:37.728)

Yeah.

Alla Shapiro (58:43.839)

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But again, three years was good enough to learn. And as I said, when we arrived, the community did for us incredible things. And we didn't have anybody, no relatives. We just started our life as...

Tim Doyle (58:46.39)

in 2006.

Alla Shapiro (59:12.455)

the family and started getting friends from everywhere. And people were extremely nice and understanding and helpful.

strangers did for us so many things. I, till now, and I think this will be forever, I always feel that I want to do more and more for people. Not just to, of course, to pay for what they did for me and my family, but just to be useful for society. This is...

always was my initial goal.

Tim Doyle (01:00:01.952)

In 2006, you returned to Kiev 20 years after Chernobyl to give a talk for the 20th anniversary. What was it like entering back into that old world?

Alla Shapiro (01:00:19.401)

Yeah, well, it's a sticky question because I just want to talk about good things. I was so proud that I am representing the United States. I even don't have words to express it. I was a keynote. One of keynote speakers was opening one of these sessions. And this

meeting the conference with the opera theater in Kiev, one of the most famous and beautiful opera theaters. And I was at the stage with my badge, which says my name and last name. And then it said United States of America. And this was this, I will never forget that. So this was the most

proud moment and I gave my presentation in English and everybody it was an international meeting but mostly there were people from Ukraine and Russia, Belarus, lots of scientists were dealing with radiation and they all were wearing my phones, not phone, I'm sorry.

and there was synchronized translation from English to, I to Russian and that how people understood. Yes, this was memorable too.

Tim Doyle (01:02:00.248)

Yeah, it's remarkable. mean.

throughout your entire journey, you've obviously, your doctor, your mother, you were a first responder, like you said, like your goal that you've always envisioned for yourself is just, you know, being useful to people and a greater good. But I think another thing that

Alla Shapiro (01:02:21.077)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this never, never changed.

Tim Doyle (01:02:27.692)

Yeah, and I can tell just by the way that you speak and the energy that you have behind both the way that you speak and the way that you write, people can really appreciate that. But I think something that also needs to be understood is that, yes, you were a first responder within Chernobyl, but you were ultimately also a patient.

And in 2011, you got diagnosed with colon cancer and, largely throughout your life, you're a caregiver, both as a doctor and as a mother. What was that experience like being on the other side of it, though, where you were the one that needed to be taken care of?

Alla Shapiro (01:03:19.123)

It's still very hard for me to talk about that, how I was diagnosed and never thought that I will be a victim. most likely this related to exposure to radiation because again, now I know that colon cancer, especially in women,

is one of the most common late effects of radiation. It's fact that not arguable. And mainly women from Kiev. Kiev has the highest rate and also Finland. Why women? I never found an explanation for that. But...

This was very difficult time. But again, I tried to be useful and I usually had my chemotherapy on Thursday and then Friday and Saturday and Sunday I was in bed, couldn't move. And then on Monday I went to work and this repeated till I was cured.

Tim Doyle (01:04:50.178)

Wow. So you went to work throughout the entire time that you were getting chemo?

Alla Shapiro (01:04:55.155)

Yeah, entire time. Didn't miss. Only as I said, Friday, Thursday, Friday, then weekend and then yeah, back to work. I even was sent to a international conference in Italy. When during my chemo.

Tim Doyle (01:05:19.478)

In a paradoxical way, do you feel like continuing to work actually helped you because it allowed you to continue to fulfill your purpose and

Alla Shapiro (01:05:30.709)

I think so. Yeah, yeah. And my work, I always like to think of what I'm doing. So the process of thinking, it's prevailing in my, and what else can we do? if this way would be better than the existing way. So having my mind off the terrible thoughts.

was very helpful. So the more I was involved with, you know, with community, science, I felt better.

Tim Doyle (01:06:12.972)

We can reclassify the truth, but nobody can control our minds or stifle our speech when we are ready to reveal damage caused by silence. What does that line mean to you now, especially as you reflect on your life, but also look toward the future?

Alla Shapiro (01:06:36.851)

I think, well, that people need to talk to each other. This is very important. Not to share their views. And this is how people grow. And from our mistakes, we also learn a lot. And I think that...

mistakes and failures. They are not our enemies. Well, this is my viewpoint. You just want to be stronger to overcome the next obstacle. This is and also sense of humor helps a lot.

Very good medicine. Again, it's my opinion, as we said, not supported by the FDA. The view, was traditional. When you go and give presentation, you have to say this in many cases. This is my opinion, not supported by the FDA. But it's an exception. But usually, of course, we are saying things that for people.

are useful and truthful.

Tim Doyle (01:08:04.77)

Dr. Shapiro, truly an honor to speak with you today. mean, both your work, but then also your personal experiences and the way that you're able to talk about everything and reflect on everything is truly remarkable and inspiring. So really appreciate you for talking with me today.

Alla Shapiro (01:08:29.365)

Thank you very much for finding me and taking time also to listen to my, to read my book and to listen to my stories.

Tim Doyle (01:08:41.728)

Any parting thoughts that you would like to share or like anything else that you would want to share with listeners about where you would want to send them somewhere to learn more about you or anything else?

Alla Shapiro (01:08:57.003)

I just want to say it's. It's not. Not me who generated this phrase, but I use it all the time. Follow your dreams. This is what I just wanna. Convey special to younger population, but for any age, you know your. This is my guess. That's enough.

Tim Doyle (01:09:28.096)

Awesome. Grace, thank you for with me today.

Alla Shapiro (01:09:31.564)

Thank you, Likewise. Thank you so much.